Amnesty International - Gaza Strikes a war crime

[gryfin]

Formed: Though the Jewish calendar goes back more than 5000 years, most scholars date the beginning of the religion of the Israelites to their forefather in faith, Abraham, whose life is generally dated to circa 2000-1800 B.C.E. taken from http://www.patheos.com/Library/Judaism.html amongst other sites that all have the same date and statement. You're pathetic.

No serious scholar believes Abraham existed 1800 years ago.

"The Bible's internal chronology places Abraham around 2000 BCE. Despite this, "there is nothing specific in the Genesis stories that can be definitively related to known history in or around Canaan in the early second millennium B.C.E."[3] As a result, "it is now widely agreed that the so-called 'patriarchal/ancestral period' is a later literary construct, not a period in the actual history of the ancient world" (Professor Paula McNutt).[4] "The majority of scholars believe that the Pentateuch was composed in the Persian period (roughly 520–320 BCE),[5] as a result of tensions between the Jewish landowners who had stayed in Judah during the Babylonian captivity and claimed Abraham as the "father" through whom they traced their right to the land, and the returning "Priestly" exiles who based their claim to dominance on Moses and the Exodus tradition."[6]"

Further, people lived in the area of Palestine for thousands of years before Judaism was formulated. And it was formulated through a mixture of other religions that existed at the time. Judaism was not the first, not the second, not even the third religion. It's just another religion and its adherents have no more claim to that area than any of the other religions that came before it or after it.

Try not being a fanatic.

 

[ZenSouljah]

destillat, I love how he ignores the opening line that states the Dome of the rock sits on the temple mount...guess that part isn't to his liking...

 

[destillat]

No serious scholar believes Abraham existed 1800 years ago.

"The Bible's internal chronology places Abraham around 2000 BCE. Despite this, "there is nothing specific in the Genesis stories that can be definitively related to known history in or around Canaan in the early second millennium B.C.E."[3] As a result, "it is now widely agreed that the so-called 'patriarchal/ancestral period' is a later literary construct, not a period in the actual history of the ancient world" (Professor Paula McNutt).[4] "The majority of scholars believe that the Pentateuch was composed in the Persian period (roughly 520–320 BCE),[5] as a result of tensions between the Jewish landowners who had stayed in Judah during the Babylonian captivity and claimed Abraham as the "father" through whom they traced their right to the land, and the returning "Priestly" exiles who based their claim to dominance on Moses and the Exodus tradition."[6]"

Further, people lived in the area of Palestine for thousands of years before Judaism was formulated. And it was formulated through a mixture of other religions that existed at the time. Judaism was not the first, not the second, not even the third religion. It's just another religion and its adherents have no more claim to that area than any of the other religions that came before it or after it.

Try not being a fanatic.

That quote is all kinds of bullshit... can you please provide a reference?

 

[ZenSouljah]

No serious scholar believes Abraham existed 1800 years ago.

"The Bible's internal chronology places Abraham around 2000 BCE. Despite this, "there is nothing specific in the Genesis stories that can be definitively related to known history in or around Canaan in the early second millennium B.C.E."[3] As a result, "it is now widely agreed that the so-called 'patriarchal/ancestral period' is a later literary construct, not a period in the actual history of the ancient world" (Professor Paula McNutt).[4] "The majority of scholars believe that the Pentateuch was composed in the Persian period (roughly 520–320 BCE),[5] as a result of tensions between the Jewish landowners who had stayed in Judah during the Babylonian captivity and claimed Abraham as the "father" through whom they traced their right to the land, and the returning "Priestly" exiles who based their claim to dominance on Moses and the Exodus tradition."[6]"

Further, people lived in the area of Palestine for thousands of years before Judaism was formulated. And it was formulated through a mixture of other religions that existed at the time. Judaism was not the first, not the second, not even the third religion. It's just another religion and its adherents have no more claim to that area than any of the other religions that came before it or after it.

Try not being a fanatic.

Look at that, you're right, nobody believes that he existed 1800 years ago, because he is dated around 2000-1800bce... and the Pentateuch is the Torah not the beginning of Judaism. Keep trying though.

 

[gryfin]

Hence the reference to the Holiest SITE in Judaism.

Guess what... the Twin Towers don't exist anymore, but that SITE is still THERE, and very important to many many people.
How stupid and pathetic can you get?

But the Twin Towers are not there anymore. Never will be.

 

[gryfin]

Remember when you said the Temple Mount doesn't exist? You do know the difference between the Temple Mount and a Temple right? You can't actually be this stupid can you? The Dome of the rock sits on part of the temple mount, and one of the walls of the temple that was their still stands.

That's odd. I thought I explicitly said the remnants still remain. Go back and read again.

 

[gryfin]

Look at that, you're right, nobody believes that he existed 1800 years ago, because he is dated around 2000-1800bce... and the Pentateuch is the Torah not the beginning of Judaism. Keep trying though.

Then try. You made the claim that it began with Abraham and you've been provided with scholarship that confirms that their is no historical evidence of that in the time of 1800 b.c.e. Scholars confirm this story was put together in the Persian period.

 

[gryfin]

That quote is all kinds of bullshit... can you please provide a reference?

That is the reference, sweetcheeks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham#Historicity_and_origins

And here's some more for you:

n the 1970s, however, new conclusions about Israel's past and the biblical texts challenged this portrait. The two works largely responsible were Thomas L. Thompson's The Historicity of the Patriarchal Narratives (1974), and John Van Seters' Abraham in History and Tradition (1975). Thompson's argument, based on archaeology and ancient texts, was that no compelling evidence pointed to the patriarchs living in the 2nd millennium and that the biblical texts reflected first millennium conditions and concerns; Van Seters, basing himself on an examination of the patriarchal stories, agreed with Thompson that their names, social milieu and messages strongly suggested that they were Iron Age creations.[7] By the beginning of the 21st century, archaeologists had "given up hope of recovering any context that would make Abraham, Isaac or Jacob credible 'historical figures'".[8]

 

[destillat]

But the Twin Towers are not there anymore. Never will be.

Who said it is there?
I'll repeat a question asked by someone earlier... can you comprehend the difference between a Temple and a Temple Mount?
Can you comprehend the difference between the Twin Towers and the Twin Towers site?
Pathetic troll.

 

[destillat]

That is the reference, sweetcheeks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham#Historicity_and_origins

And here's some more for you:

n the 1970s, however, new conclusions about Israel's past and the biblical texts challenged this portrait. The two works largely responsible were Thomas L. Thompson's The Historicity of the Patriarchal Narratives (1974), and John Van Seters' Abraham in History and Tradition (1975). Thompson's argument, based on archaeology and ancient texts, was that no compelling evidence pointed to the patriarchs living in the 2nd millennium and that the biblical texts reflected first millennium conditions and concerns; Van Seters, basing himself on an examination of the patriarchal stories, agreed with Thompson that their names, social milieu and messages strongly suggested that they were Iron Age creations.[7] By the beginning of the 21st century, archaeologists had "given up hope of recovering any context that would make Abraham, Isaac or Jacob credible 'historical figures'".[8]

Aaannddd from YOUR source:

"His story, like those of the other patriarchs, most likely had a substantial oral prehistory.[10] At some stage the oral traditions became part of the written tradition of the Pentateuch; a majority of scholars believes this stage belongs to the Persian period, roughly 520–320 BCE."

Do you comprehend what an 'oral prehistory' is? Or do I need to draw it out for you with colourful crayons?

 

[nottyboi]

Defending yourself from Arab attacks is not a "crime."

Blowing up apartment buildings is...and goes well beyond international law. Deporting a woman and her child is also criminal, blowing up houses because someone who lived there committed a crime in collective punishment and is C R I M I N A L.

 

[destillat]

Blowing up apartment buildings is...

So is hiding missiles in said apartment building, so go fuck yourself.

 

[nottyboi]

Fled and handed Hamas a military victory? You really are beyond stupid.

Ok then Mr. Military genius... why did Israel withdraw? Because they wanted to make the Palis feel better? Many of the buildings were demolished in the withdrawal, leaving destruction in their path as they left. You do that when you RETREAT. A peaceful handover is when land is handed over without vandalism and destruction. Israel left because the political and economic cost of holding the land was too high. In a war this is known as a DEFEAT.

 

[ZenSouljah]

They withdrew in hopes of making things better and achieving peace. The buildings demolished were the settlers some of whom had to be forced out. Hamas will never be able to defeat the Israeli military, go get a clue.

 

[nottyboi]

They withdrew in hopes of making things better and achieving peace. The buildings demolished were the settlers some of whom had to be forced out. Hamas will never be able to defeat the Israeli military, go get a clue.

Of course they would not, all they can every be is a nuance. Kinda like the Viet Cong. So the IDF cannot control settlers? Is that what you are trying to tell me? You really do believe in the tooth fairy don't you? Israel withdrew. Hamas were able to claim a military victory, used it to win an election. They then launched a coup against Fatah which Israel refused to help defeat. (either they were afraid of Hamas or wanted them to win) So now you have Hamas firmly entrenched next door. Can you see how all the pieces fit together now? bueller buelller...

 

[ZenSouljah]

Nope, but I can see how stupid you are and how little of a grasp you have on history in that region.

 

[Moviefan-2]

Blowing up apartment buildings is...and goes well beyond international law. Deporting a woman and her child is also criminal, blowing up houses because someone who lived there committed a crime in collective punishment and is C R I M I N A L.

Let's review.

You've tried to describe the Arabs' military losses as "apartheid," "ethnic cleansing" and a "crime."

In fact, the Arabs' military losses are none of those things. So, when all else fails, you try to change the subject.

It figures.

You mean when they fled and handed Hamas a military victory? And then allowed them to take over the whole place?

What???

People like you were adamant that ending the occupation in Gaza would pacify the Jew-hating terrorists and would lead to more peace. Now that it is painfully obvious that you were wrong, you try to claim that Israel "fled"?

Unbelievable. It's this kind of idiocy that makes people wonder if some of you Hamas lovers really are anti-Semites.

 

[basketcase]

The problem really was the Balfour Declaration. It pretty much laid bare what the Zionists were working towards. Once the Balfour declaration was made, what would you think if you were an Arab, especially after you had already been shafted by the Sykes Picot agreement. How in this context was it really possible to work with the Jews and to what end? Why would it not be possible for the population to double in 25 years? Arabs are will known for having many kids, if each family has 5 kids, population would easily double.

Yet during the same period that population did not double in any other Arab country in the region.

As you can see the fix was already in: "The 1922 Palestine Order in Council[15] established a Legislative Council, which was to consist of 23 members; 12 elected, 10 appointed and the High Commissioner.[16] Of the 12 elected members, eight were to be Muslim Arabs, two Christian Arabs and two Jews.[17] Arabs protested against the distribution of the seats, arguing that as they constituted 88% of the population, having only 43% of the seats was unfair.[17] Elections were held in February and March 1923, but due to an Arab boycott, the results were annulled and a 12-member Advisory Council was established.[16]"

I don't know who posted the numbers in that wiki but a council with 10 of the 12 seats being Arab doesn't add up to the 43% listed. All it shows is that the Arabs refused to consider any Jew their equal, the same as Hamas currently.

Did the Jews buy the land legally? Or through coercion. So you think if a bunch or poor arabs who have farmed land for generations and someone acquires their land through corrupt means and forces them off, you don't expect violence? Being pushed of your land in those times was a death sentence. I suppose we can see Israels "land acquisition methodology" at work today, it has not changed much. Don't try and sugar coat it, you know those arabs refused to move, and then force was used to move them.

What you refuse to address is that the wealthy Arabs who owned the land were the ones selling their land. They are the ones who screwed over the tenant farmers, not the people who bought the land. It is known that the wealthy Arabs took advantage of changes to Ottoman property laws to become the owners but once again, that is a problem with the wealth Arabs, not the Jews who later bought that land.

Little by little you are starting to admit all the dirty stuff that does not make it into the big picture discussion. Its the dirty little details that paint the true picture. The arabs acted like any other people would act in the same situation.

You think that should apply to you?

And I notice that you refuse to address your major hypocrisy. How is it okay that Arabs react to being attacked with violence against civilians but not for Jews who were being attacked for decades longer?

 

[basketcase]

...
How stupid and pathetic can you get?

... You can't actually be this stupid can you? ...

Not stupid, just too full of hate to consider reason.

 

[basketcase]

Look at that, you're right, nobody believes that he existed 1800 years ago, because he is dated around 2000-1800bce... and the Pentateuch is the Torah not the beginning of Judaism. Keep trying though.

Of course what gryf chooses to ignore with his arguments about dates is that no matter how he tries to muddy the waters, Israel existed as a Jewish state based in Jerusalem long before Islam existed. Obviously Roman and Babylonian historians have left us enough evidence of it.