Another Malaysian Airways flight down over Ukraine....

[eznutz]

15:29: Ukraine's SBU security service has confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the crew of the doomed airliner, a source in Kiev has told Interfax news agency. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28360784

And so, just like in the case of flight MH-370, what actually happened with MH-17 may never be known.

 

[GPIDEAL]

International monitors who have arrived at the crash site said militia have limited their access.

 

[mnztr]

The pilot of MH17 radioed that he 'felt uncomfortable' about the route he was flying while over Ukraine and fatally altered his course to hostile territory, according to an expert. Dr Igor Sutyagin, Research Fellow in Russian Studies from the Royal United Services Institute, believes that MH17 was shot down by rebels based in the 3rd District of Torez, in eastern Ukraine, after mistaking his plane for a government military transport aircraft.

He told MailOnline that information had been leaked from a source he was unwilling to name that the pilot of MH17 'felt bad' about his course over Ukrainian airspace, so changed direction. Little did he know, according to Dr Sutyagin, that his plane would then be mistaken by rebels who brought it down using a ground-to-air Buk missile system. Malaysia Airlines today denied that the plane was told to alter its course.

His comments come as Vladimir Putin called for a ceasefire by pro-Russian separatists and Ukrainian government forces to allow for negotiations. A top separatist leader in east Ukraine has ruled out a truce with government forces but pledged to allow investigators to access the crash site. 'There is no question of a ceasefire but we will let experts access the site of the catastrophe,' Alexander Borodai, the prime minister of the self-proclaimed 'Donetsk People's Republic', told journalists.

Dr Sutyagin's theory appears to be supported by a route map which shows the passenger plane travelling on a different course to the ones taken by the previous ten MH17 flights. Twitter user Vagelis Karmiros collated the information from Flightaware, the largest flight tracking website in the world.

Dr Sutyagin said: 'There is a Ukrainian mechanised brigade blocked by separatists near the Russian border. 'It's blocked on three sides by separatists and behind the brigade is the Russian border, so they can't get out. The Ukrainians try to resupply them from the air by transport aircraft. 'Now, the pilot of MH17 said that he "felt bad" and wanted to change course south to get out of the danger zone. But several kilometers to the south is a Ukrainian Army heavy transport plane, an IL76, or Candid, which has the same echo as a 777 on a radar screen. 'The two planes came close. They tried to shoot down the transport delivering supplies to the brigade. They believed that they had been firing at a military plane, but they mistakenly shoot down a civilian airliner.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tists-shot-missile-McCain-warns-Hell-pay.html

I read it was diverted due to storms on the standard route.

 

[AK-47]

International monitors who have arrived at the crash site said militia have limited their access

They supposedly got threatened too

 

[mandrill]

The statements of Girkin posted on his Vkontakte page on July 18 appeared to be a lot more confusing.

According to Girkin, the plane’s passengers were already dead when the plane went down.

“I just talked to two people who were gathering corpses, both from Shakhtarsk (the city where the plane crashed) so they came to the spot only 30 minutes after the tragedy. I am writing from their words. They said many corpses were totally bloodless and looked like blood had clotted long before the catastrophe,” the leader of Russian backed insurgents wrote.

Сiting the same locals, Girkin also said a strong putrid smell was noticed in the area of the plane crash. “This smell could not have appeared in a half an hour in any weather, and it was cloudy, not very hot yesterday,” he wrote. According to the terrorist leader there was a special medical cargo on board.

In the same statement Girkin-Strelkov admitted plane pilots were alive and did die as a result of the crash. “The cabin, and its front is in a good condition, is literally spilled with their blood all over,” he wrote. http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukr...rlines-plane-was-carrying-corpses-356780.html

Strelkov (Girkin) now has changed his story and admitted shooting down a plane. But now says the plane was full of stale corpses (already dead) as part of an elaborate and unexplained hoax. Gotta hand it them. Russians are very, very creative under pressure.

More Ukrainian tapes of Strelkov.

Here’s the translation:

First man (believed to be Strelkov): Just now the plane was hit
Second man: All over! Is is already over!
Strelkov: It is going down now somewhere in the Progress area
Second: It is over! It is over!
Strelkov: We are out now, watching. Look at those black spots, these are parts, flying. And it was a blast…
Third man: Yes, I see
Strelkov: Look, look, black smoke right behind Terrikon, where Progess is..
Third: It is now when real work starts.
Second: F*** plane!
Strelkov: Look, look at the smoke!
Third: That was a blast!
Strelkov: Call him now!
Second: They got it, they hit it! They shoot and hit it!
Third: (laughs) It was worth brining this thing, wasn’t it?

After the successful hit, Strelkov tweeted the following:

‘In the area Torez we just hit down An-26, it’s lying somewhere in the mine “Progress”.
‘We warned you – do not fly in “our sky”. And here is the video confirmation of the “bird dropping”.
‘Bird fell near the mine, the residential sector was not disturbed. Civilians are not injured.’

There’s a few lines in that video dialogue which now point to how the disaster came to pass.

There are reports that the rebels were testing out a BUK missile system they had just got hold of, which was likely to have either been seized from a captured Ukrainian cache or supplied by Russia, according to former UN weapons analyst Ben Rich.

The third man’s claim that “It is now when real work starts” and “It was worth bringing this thing, wasn’t it?” seem to support the notion that Strelkov was testing the firepower of his new acquisition.

It’s likely he also believed he was downing a military aircraft – the An-26 he mentioned in his “We warned you” tweet, which was deleted soon after it was posted.

Ukraine’s secret service – the SBU – then leaked a conversation between militants nicknamed “Major” and “Greek” as the separatists inspected the crash site.

According to a transcript translated by the Kyiv Post, the rebels discuss their realisation that it is a civilian aircraft and seeing dead civilians.

“It’s 100% a passenger aircraft,” Major is recorded as saying, noting that he saw no weapons on-site. “Absolutely nothing. Civilian items, medicinal stuff, towels, toilet paper.”

About 20 minutes after the plane crash, the SBU says Strelkov placed a call to Russia’s main intelligence department. http://www.businessinsider.com.au/t...-may-have-just-made-a-horrible-mistake-2014-7

 

[AK-47]

^^^^ propaganda

 

[fuji]

^^^^ propaganda

Nice try, but no.

 

[mnztr]

Russia has denied a lot of things that turned out to be true.

Maybe you are just miffed that yet another RT reporter has quit saying they cannot continue to tell lies for Russia.

How is that different from just about every country?

 

[AK-47]

Nice try, but no

Did you even read Oagre's post in its entirety, fuji??

I was specifically talking about this part:

Strelkov (Girkin) now has changed his story and admitted shooting down a plane. But now says the plane was full of stale corpses (already dead) as part of an elaborate and unexplained hoax

 

[mandrill]

Did you even read Oagre's post in its entirety, fuji??

I was specifically talking about this part:

Strelkov (Girkin) now has changed his story and admitted shooting down a plane. But now says the plane was full of stale corpses (already dead) as part of an elaborate and unexplained hoax

Current Putin-troll internet posters are accusing Kiev of harvesting organs from living people as part of its US-backed neo-Nazi genocide of the Russian people. (Yes, they really say this and Russians really believe it). Strelkov's post seems to fit in w the bizarre overall script.

 

[Aardvark154]

As I may have already mentioned in this thread. The problem with Partisans (as both Great Britain and the United States have learned in the past) is that although they may be backed by a major power, they are their own operators, and not infrequently when instructed: don't jump! Are more than happy to instead cavort about like Kangaroos.

One wonders what would have happened if during the 1980's a group of Mujaheddin fighters had shot down a Garuda Indonesia aircraft over Afghanistan. Would there have been a huge outcry to hold the U.S.A. responsible as having supplied the weapons?

 

[The Fruity Hare]

Soon someone will make a statement connecting the previous Malaysia Air's plane's disappearance with this crash. They will say that the U.S. hijacked the original plane, kept the bodies frozen, then had them flown into the war zone knowing they would be shot down.

And probably even more absurd conspiracy theories too.

 

[BlueLaser]

^^^^ propaganda

That sword cuts both ways.

Everyone has swallowed so much pro-West propaganda that I would laugh at some of the posts in this thread if it wasn't so tragic.

If the West really cares, it will pass a UN resolution and move in Peacekeepers. You can't even argue bias since the bulk of peacekeepers these days come from the Indian subcontinent. Let the Golden Arrow division march in with it's 20,000 men, augmented by the 35th Composite Air Wing, all from Pakistan. They can roll in with standard peacekeeping rules of engagement and disarm everyone Pro-Russian and Pro-Western alike. Then let UN observers form and observe organized elections. At the end of the day, you'll find the mineral-rich, industry-rich areas still vote to join Russia, which is exactly why the West doesn't want to see a peaceful ending to this war, they just want to see the Kiev win at all costs.

The West NEEDS a unified Ukraine because a Ukraine split East and West means they'll only get the part they don't care about. Likewise, Russia doesn't care about the West either. If you think this is anything other than a bid for control over the resources and an experienced manufacturing base that works for cheap, all based in the Eastern region, you're sadly mistaken. The Ukrainians are the victims of both Western and Russian greed here, and by choosing to believe the propaganda from one side while ignoring the evils of the other, you're only hurting the Ukrainian people more.


But back on the topic of MH17:

Buk launchers are made all over the former Soviet Union. They don't have to have come from Russia. Heck, there are factories in Ukraine that manufactured Buk. Don't forget, when Russia went into Georgia they were met with tanks and fighter jets and missiles too. It's not hard to get arms and armaments in the region. Just because insurgents have Russian equipment doesn't mean they're funded or equipped by Russia. They might be, it's possible, but right now there's as much evidence that Putin is responsible for the Russian insurgency as there is that Obama was responsible for the original pro-West insurgency that overthrew the government and brought on the civil war to begin with.

In the meantime, this is the 3rd aircraft shot down over the area this week. It's easy to say avoid it, but once again, just like with MH370, people who don't understand aviation think they have the answers to everything. There are realities to flight planning that sometimes dictate certain routes need to be flown. Do you want to pay an extra $250/ticket to cover the cost of increased fuel to avoid an entire region? If not, then airlines have 2 choices: lose revenue by cancelling those flights or flying with lighter loads, or risking it and going through. Given the razor thin profit margins airlines work with, it's not a shock that they risk it. It's even less of a shock that even when a route doesn't go through the area encounters severe weather, it may have no option but to divert over it.

There's a reason pilots of these large aircraft are paid so well despite the fact that computers do 99% of the flying these days: it's to make decisions like this keeping in mind not only flight safety, but the company's bottom line. He could maybe have turned around and gone back, but then the airline is on the hook for a lot and passengers would be pissed too.

I also like the way a report says that IL76's and Boeing 777's have the same "echo" on a radar screen. That's a comment truly made by someone who has never seen a combat radar display.

 

[Aardvark154]

i have run across the figure of 23 Americans.

This may be true. However, thus far I've heard of only one Dutch -- U.S. dual national who has lived most of his life in the Netherlands and was traveling on his Dutch Passport.

 

[Aardvark154]

By the way Buk in Russian is the word for Beech trees, Duk is the word for Oak trees.

 

[BlueLaser]

Current Putin-troll internet posters are accusing Kiev of harvesting organs from living people as part of its US-backed neo-Nazi genocide of the Russian people. (Yes, they really say this and Russians really believe it). Strelkov's post seems to fit in w the bizarre overall script.

I don't know a single Russian who would believe that, and I know many Russians.

I suppose there are fringes in society who would, but then you can look at how many Americans believe wild conspiracies too. Look at chemtrails for example, or CIA brain-implant theories, or any other number of wacky theories that some people believe.

 

[Aardvark154]

The Russians are going to try to cover this up just like the last time they shot down the Korean plane.

Because the bottom line is do you believe one 777 is worth a Global Thermonuclear War?

I don't know about you, but I don't know many people civilian or military who do.

 

[mandrill]

That sword cuts both ways.

Everyone has swallowed so much pro-West propaganda that I would laugh at some of the posts in this thread if it wasn't so tragic.

If the West really cares, it will pass a UN resolution and move in Peacekeepers. You can't even argue bias since the bulk of peacekeepers these days come from the Indian subcontinent. Let the Golden Arrow division march in with it's 20,000 men, augmented by the 35th Composite Air Wing, all from Pakistan. They can roll in with standard peacekeeping rules of engagement and disarm everyone Pro-Russian and Pro-Western alike. Then let UN observers form and observe organized elections. At the end of the day, you'll find the mineral-rich, industry-rich areas still vote to join Russia, which is exactly why the West doesn't want to see a peaceful ending to this war, they just want to see the Kiev win at all costs.

The West NEEDS a unified Ukraine because a Ukraine split East and West means they'll only get the part they don't care about. Likewise, Russia doesn't care about the West either. If you think this is anything other than a bid for control over the resources and an experienced manufacturing base that works for cheap, all based in the Eastern region, you're sadly mistaken. The Ukrainians are the victims of both Western and Russian greed here, and by choosing to believe the propaganda from one side while ignoring the evils of the other, you're only hurting the Ukrainian people more.


But back on the topic of MH17:

Buk launchers are made all over the former Soviet Union. They don't have to have come from Russia. Heck, there are factories in Ukraine that manufactured Buk. Don't forget, when Russia went into Georgia they were met with tanks and fighter jets and missiles too. It's not hard to get arms and armaments in the region. Just because insurgents have Russian equipment doesn't mean they're funded or equipped by Russia. They might be, it's possible, but right now there's as much evidence that Putin is responsible for the Russian insurgency as there is that Obama was responsible for the original pro-West insurgency that overthrew the government and brought on the civil war to begin with.

In the meantime, this is the 3rd aircraft shot down over the area this week. It's easy to say avoid it, but once again, just like with MH370, people who don't understand aviation think they have the answers to everything. There are realities to flight planning that sometimes dictate certain routes need to be flown. Do you want to pay an extra $250/ticket to cover the cost of increased fuel to avoid an entire region? If not, then airlines have 2 choices: lose revenue by cancelling those flights or flying with lighter loads, or risking it and going through. Given the razor thin profit margins airlines work with, it's not a shock that they risk it. It's even less of a shock that even when a route doesn't go through the area encounters severe weather, it may have no option but to divert over it.

There's a reason pilots of these large aircraft are paid so well despite the fact that computers do 99% of the flying these days: it's to make decisions like this keeping in mind not only flight safety, but the company's bottom line. He could maybe have turned around and gone back, but then the airline is on the hook for a lot and passengers would be pissed too.

I also like the way a report says that IL76's and Boeing 777's have the same "echo" on a radar screen. That's a comment truly made by someone who has never seen a combat radar display.

But right now, the evidence - albeit Ukrainian in origin - is that this BUK came from Russia. And has gone back there. And the missile system has to be fired by someone who can read the radar screen you talk about.

 

[mandrill]

I don't know a single Russian who would believe that, and I know many Russians.

I suppose there are fringes in society who would, but then you can look at how many Americans believe wild conspiracies too. Look at chemtrails for example, or CIA brain-implant theories, or any other number of wacky theories that some people believe.

I know several Russians who believe that. I just spoke to one on Facebook, a guy called Andrey Bogdanov, a university teacher from Moscow and a buddy of Strelkov's. Look him up and say "hi" for me. I'll give you the link. He can introduce you to his friends. And it seems to be a growth industry. And there are Russian news and internet reports which specialize in spreading this type of crap.

Here's something I just found. A commentary on Russian media which reminded me that Russia's main TV news channel recently published a fake story about a child being crucified in Slovyansk's main square by Ukrainian troops. This stuff is getting weirder and weirder and it's being put about by major Russian news outlets and believed by the masses.

http://mobile.businessweek.com/arti...oting-russian-news-media-tries-crazy-theories

 

[mandrill]

That sword cuts both ways.

Everyone has swallowed so much pro-West propaganda that I would laugh at some of the posts in this thread if it wasn't so tragic.

If the West really cares, it will pass a UN resolution and move in Peacekeepers. You can't even argue bias since the bulk of peacekeepers these days come from the Indian subcontinent. Let the Golden Arrow division march in with it's 20,000 men, augmented by the 35th Composite Air Wing, all from Pakistan. They can roll in with standard peacekeeping rules of engagement and disarm everyone Pro-Russian and Pro-Western alike. Then let UN observers form and observe organized elections. At the end of the day, you'll find the mineral-rich, industry-rich areas still vote to join Russia, which is exactly why the West doesn't want to see a peaceful ending to this war, they just want to see the Kiev win at all costs.

The West NEEDS a unified Ukraine because a Ukraine split East and West means they'll only get the part they don't care about. Likewise, Russia doesn't care about the West either. If you think this is anything other than a bid for control over the resources and an experienced manufacturing base that works for cheap, all based in the Eastern region, you're sadly mistaken. The Ukrainians are the victims of both Western and Russian greed here, and by choosing to believe the propaganda from one side while ignoring the evils of the other, you're only hurting the Ukrainian people more.

At the risk of jumping topic, right now the separatists own about 50% or less of Lugansk and Donetsk. Both of these regions are industrial. But both are driven by outmoded coal mining. All of the analysis I've read suggests that the regions are a economic burden to Ukraine and not an advantage. If you want to tell me that there's an industrial bonanza there and that it's worth Ukrainian lives and American money to keep them, go right ahead and convince me. The west gets all the cheap manufacturing it needs already.

Poroshenko offered peace terms, including federalization. The separatists refused. So back to square one. Before the peacekeepers come in, the separatists have to agree to it. No sign of that. So no peacekeepers.

As far as Putin, convince me that all the reports about recruiting Russians to fight in Donetsk and convoying them and their heavy armament across the border is horseshit and give me your sources. Tell me why Putin's media quite clearly backs preposterous exaggerations about Ukrainian war crimes in Donbas, if not to facilitate recruitment of Russians for "Novorussiya" and give me your sources. Give me your sources for the proposition than all Russian-speaking Ukraine would reject Kiev. And then we can talk.