teachers strike?

[frankcastle]

I just ran into an old work colleague at a party tonight. It has been 20-25 years, since we last spoke
He / she has a BA / MBA and I recall respecting his / her opinion / work ethic way back when
He / she bounced around from company to company and even started a small business .
Approx 15 years ago he / she got into teachers college and became a teacher.
I asked how he / she liked teaching
After laughing he / she responded that "I would not trade this for anything and began to list off the perks
1. You get the whole summer off
2. You put in your three classes a day & do "what ever" of the rest of the time
3. The money is fantastic for what you do
4. Most important of all the there is a complete absence of stress relative to what I experienced in the corp world.

Now I liked this person way back when and did not want to offend, so I was tactful asking about the current situation
He / she laughed , rolled the eyes , shrugged the shoulders and said one word ... union

Later I pressed him / her about the extra curricular / marking / prep time
The response was just as I suspected.
Most teachers get involved in extra curricular activities if they have a personal interest in the activity ie. football, basketball, drama etc.. If there is no interest , well...........

Prep time: ?? After two years of teaching the same subject @ an adolescences level if you do not know the material then there is problem

Marking: If you have your shit together you can have an entire classes test results marked in a couple of hours.
Now as I recall there is maybe three tests per semester & maybe 2 or three assignments per class
So that is a whopping 10-15 hours of marking time per semester per class , yet some here will have us believing they putting in 70 hours each and every week. bullshit

He / she confirmed my argument all along, despite the con job some here are trying to sell, this is the most
overpaid cushy assignments and there is ample room to trim in order to reduce the provinces deficit and the burden on the taxpayer
We will need that $ for Health Care & soon



What annoys me more than anything is Teachers actually think the public is stupid enough to believe their propaganda.
Kind of Ironic since they theoretically educated the public

Again showing what you know. My nephews are in high school and I help them with their math. They have 6 tests, 6 quizes, exam, plus a summative assignment.

And you can't assume all things take the same time to mark..... an english teacher spends 15 to 20 minutes per essay.

And prep time alsom means putting together course packs, handouts etc..... even if it's just a few minutes at the printer and photocopier it's still time.

Prepping also means writing tests that are different from period to period and semester to semester. So for that math teacher that's anywhere from (6+3+2+2) x 1 to 3 depending on how many different subjects they are teaching.

Prepping could also include setting up labs for students, shopping for food for family studies, making sure all the musical instruments are in working order etc. There's lots of things that have to happen other than just standing at the front of the room lecturing. And on that topic..... from what kids tell me classes are very different from when I went to school. The teacher at the front still happens but there's also other methods of teaching that invovle groups and getting the kids to be active rather than passivly just sitting there. Having not prepped lessons I have not idea how much time it takes but it probably takes more time to organize stuff like that than just deciding on what you are going to say at the front of the room.

And extracurriculars.... there are teachers who do it because if they don't the activity won't run. But yes typically they have an interest. So what. Whether they have an interest or not it's still time spent on the activity. Football and theatrical plays are probably the most time intenstive. Football is pretty much everyday for 2 to 3 hours for 2 and a half months.

Let me know if you donate 100 h for something that you DON'T have to do.

Point is teachers couldd be putting in 200 h that you aren't giving them credit for. I'm not saying all teachers give up 200 h in prepping and extra curriculars but the point is that you can't assume that the majority of teachers are putting in the bare minimum.

And your "friend" really doesn't confirm the number of hours.... simply what it is like for them. Clearly that's a person who should be fired.

Then again maybe they were just telling you what you want to hear. Teacher's know the job is good even when you factor in prep and what not and they don't want to bore you with complaints.


Most people I know keep their bitching of their job to a minimum especially to people the just "run into."

If I haven't seen you in a while I'm not going to bore you with my complaints. That's why when people say "How's it going" you can expect "Good" or "Fine" as the answers and either response really means noting.

 

[frankcastle]

Lowering the salaries will still attract people. Otherwise minimum wage jobs would have trouble finding people. Mind you lower the salaries to the point where a person could make better money elsewhere you run the risk of having less qualitifed people.

What the magic number is for teacher's I don't know. But I guess it would have to be somewhere around the average salary that a person with 5 years of university typically makes.

 

[frankcastle]

The basic problem is that there are more teachers than there are teaching jobs. We need to find a way to reduce the number of teachers. Generally, in any market where you have an oversupply the solution is straight forward--reduce the price, and some of the suppliers will leave the market.

The number of teachers is not the problem.

The cost of the teachers is the problem. IF there was no surplus of teachers we'd still be in the same situation.

They want to keep their benefits. The government wants to take them away.

They want to fight for it. The haters want them to give up.

Having read enough threads on the forum I think the general consensus of terbites is that if you are slighted you fight, you don't bend over and take it. So why are we asking teachers to take it? Basically you are saying that teachers should not be able to fight for their livelihood.

Freezing would probably be easy to achieve, cutting without negotiations is what the issue is about.

 

[frankcastle]

Telling teachers to quit their job if they don't like the way things are going is as practical as telling taxpayers who don't like how it's being spent to move to another country (with lower taxes)

 

[KBear]

Telling teachers to quit their job if they don't like the way things are going is as practical as telling taxpayers who don't like how it's being spent to move to another country (with lower taxes)

In most private sector employment markets if you don’t like the pay, you can ask for a raise and/or go find another job. Why is that not practical for teachers?

There are other options for taxpayers. The number of people claiming to be self employed is growing at an accelerating rate.

 

[fuji]

Lowering the salaries will still attract people. Otherwise minimum wage jobs would have trouble finding people.

Becoming a teacher requires years of time and money spent on university and then teaches college. If salaries drop the number of people willing to make that investment will drop.

Not like the minimum wage situation at all. Occupations above the minimum wage require the development of skills and knowledge, often certification. Such labour markets are very responsive to how lucrative the opportunity is perceived to be.

 

[fuji]

The number of teachers is not the problem.

The cost of the teachers is the problem. IF there was no surplus of teachers we'd still be in the same situation.

They want to keep their benefits. The government wants to take them away.

They want to fight for it. The haters want them to give up.

Having read enough threads on the forum I think the general consensus of terbites is that if you are slighted you fight, you don't bend over and take it. So why are we asking teachers to take it? Basically you are saying that teachers should not be able to fight for their livelihood.

Freezing would probably be easy to achieve, cutting without negotiations is what the issue is about.

Why, because the tax payer should get good value for their money, and overpaying teachers means less can be spent on welfare, health care, infrastructure, debt payments or even tax cuts.

 

[benstt]

Do teachers have a location-based scale? I recall that was one of the distinct benefits when I looked at possibly doing it years ago - you could work in a rural or small location for a relatively good living - cheaper housing than Toronto, etc.

 

[frankcastle]

Do teachers have a location-based scale? I recall that was one of the distinct benefits when I looked at possibly doing it years ago - you could work in a rural or small location for a relatively good living - cheaper housing than Toronto, etc.

I think pay depends on school boards. Not sure if the TDBS pays as much as some board in the country.

 

[frankcastle]

Becoming a teacher requires years of time and money spent on university and then teaches college. If salaries drop the number of people willing to make that investment will drop.

Not like the minimum wage situation at all. Occupations above the minimum wage require the development of skills and knowledge, often certification. Such labour markets are very responsive to how lucrative the opportunity is perceived to be.

Earninng potential of people with fine arts or philosophy degrees has not stopped the people who take it every year. I'd say it hasn't been a valuable degree for decades.

 

[frankcastle]

In most private sector employment markets if you don’t like the pay, you can ask for a raise and/or go find another job. Why is that not practical for teachers?

There are other options for taxpayers. The number of people claiming to be self employed is growing at an accelerating rate.

KB my point is that it seems people are suggesting that teachers should like it or lump it and that arguing/fighting should not be an option. I see no reason why a person who is unhappy with changes in their job can't complain/protest

 

[JohnLarue]

The old mythical "i have a friend who said" argument. That is a classic. So one 'person's' (if that person even exists) opinion means everything she's said about the profession is true. How can she speak for tens of thousands of teachers? You only hear what you want to hear.

Let me guess. She flew in on her private jet (funded by taxpayers) and slurped caviar all night. Then she was off to weekend in Monaco.

Oh Boy

Why not just call me a liar ?
Look asswipe, this is what my friend told me.

Just because it happens to describe a more realistic picture than your view is no reason to question my integritity

If you break it down, it lines up

 

[FAST]

Two classes

KB my point is that it seems people are suggesting that teachers should like it or lump it and that arguing/fighting should not be an option. I see no reason why a person who is unhappy with changes in their job can't complain/protest

Here’s the problem Frank,...teachers do the so called "fighting" en masse by threatening students and parents.

Nobody is saying that employees should not be able complain/protest,...but there is absolutely NO parallel for an individual in the non unionised private sector.

An individual can't go to his employer and say,...if you don't give me what I want,...I'm going to shut you down,...with a straight face anyway.

The majority of employed people in Canada do NOT belong to a union, let alone a civil servant union.

How do you expect the majority to react to teachers actions ???

The way to fix this whole union thing is to allow companies to declare up front that said company will never be unionised,...if you want to have a job here,...that’s the way its going to be,...take it or leave it.
If the company requires something more than a "screw turner" to exist,...the company will be forced to pay the going rate,...or cease to exist, allowing market forces to play it out,…is the only fair way,…to the majority.

FAST

 

[frankcastle]

Here’s the problem Frank,...teachers do the so called "fighting" en masse by threatening students and parents.

Nobody is saying that employees should not be able complain/protest,...but there is absolutely NO parallel for an individual in the non unionised private sector.

An individual can't go to his employer and say,...if you don't give me what I want,...I'm going to shut you down,...with a straight face anyway.

The majority of employed people in Canada do NOT belong to a union, let alone a civil servant union.

How do you expect the majority to react to teachers actions ???

The way to fix this whole union thing is to allow companies to declare up front that said company will never be unionised,...if you want to have a job here,...that’s the way its going to be,...take it or leave it.
If the company requires something more than a "screw turner" to exist,...the company will be forced to pay the going rate,...or cease to exist, allowing market forces to play it out,…is the only fair way,…to the majority.

FAST

You may not like Unions or feel that it is unfair that they can do that.

But unions predate any terb member..... it's like complaining about a well established law.

I'm all for reforming unions and getting rid of deficit but when it comes to teachers it seems that people get sidetracked with how good the job is (in their eyese), how inept teachers are (in their opinion).

It's much like the long threads I had with Fuji on blacks and guns.... the danger is when people start painting large groups of people with broad strokes and lose site of the issues.

How do I expect people to react? How about without emotion? Mixed in among points being made are people's opinions on teachers which some confuse as facts.

 

[frankcastle]

The old mythical "i have a friend who said" argument. That is a classic. So one 'person's' (if that person even exists) opinion means everything she's said about the profession is true. How can she speak for tens of thousands of teachers? You only hear what you want to hear.

Let me guess. She flew in on her private jet (funded by taxpayers) and slurped caviar all night. Then she was off to weekend in Monaco.

He's also basing work conditions on someone who has been doing the same job for 15 years and the casual conversation that they had.

 

[Toke]

Sorry but much as you and Marx may not like it, supply and demand does indeed apply.

Perhaps, but not in the simplistic manner you are applying it. Hell, I even used it by turning it around. (An argument you have yet to respond to)

 

[Toke]

I suspect that if you continue to use Wikipedia as your source for economic theory explanations you might not be getting a full explanation.

While the labour market for teachers may not be a "free market" in the short term an "over supply" is quite indicative of the fact that teachers may not be quite the rare and valuable resource that their leaders make them out to be.

I am not simply using it as my source. Just a basic example for fuji to see that not S+D (his only argument) is not as simplistic as giving its broad definition. I pointed out earlier that S+D in the case of teachers does not apply in the way he defines it as each teacher. especially those yeaet to be employed are the same. Therefore, by him simply stating that replacing the 'expensive product' with a 'cheaper alternative' will not solve the problem.

 

[Toke]

Pretty much EXACTLY what I have learned, talking to different teachers.

The thing is,...you can't just start asking a lot of pointed questions,...they eventually catch on, (a little child psychology works well) and won't answer or start lying.

FAST

The conniving devils. SMH

 

[Toke]

Seriously? You seriously doubt that supply and demand laws apply to labour markets?

I can recommend some good text books to you but I am not going to waste time explaining economics 101.

If your debating strategy here is to challenge the law of supply and demand and say that it is wrong then I think we relegate you to the cuckoo nest and conclude the debate.

Not only 'can I', but I will...
http://education.alberta.ca/media/354979/committeereport.pdf

 

[Toke]

In most private sector employment markets if you don’t like the pay, you can ask for a raise and/or go find another job. Why is that not practical for teachers?

There are other options for taxpayers. The number of people claiming to be self employed is growing at an accelerating rate.

I guess it could, however, as a society isn't something as important as education (especially for children) important enough to have trained and erxperienced teachers? How educated would you want your child's teacher to be?