unemployment vs teaching for a bit less than what teachers make now. mmmm? what to choose?
teachers strike?
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No-one's even proposing that their salary be cut. The proposal is that their benefits be rolled back, and salary frozen. Sure, inflation will mean it will work out to less--but that isn't as big a hit to morale as actually cutting someone's salary, and the effect rolls in slowly with inflation, rather than with a sudden pay cut.
Two worlds
I've been watching the ongoing "debate" between an admitted socialist and Fuj, regarding how market forces apply to teachers.
What this actually does is, highlight why non unionists react with sometimes outright rage at the current teachers and civil servants in general.
The MAJORITY of Canadian employees, and self employed, have to work within the free market system, ...which MOST DEFINITELY effects ones income and even opportunity to be employed.
Unionised employees, civil servants in particular, are NOT,...unfortunately,…and are very minimally, if any, effected by the same market forces.
Wages and fringe benefits are artificially higher than the work performed and performance,… due to weak governments, black mail and threats by unions, and does NOT reflect any competition for said positions.
Private sector unions are not quite so lucky,...eventually market forces do catch up with them,...witness the CAW/UAW recently,...which again demonstrates why civil servant unions elicit such responses.
FAST
I've been watching the ongoing "debate" between an admitted socialist and Fuj, regarding how market forces apply to teachers.
What this actually does is, highlight why non unionists react with sometimes outright rage at the current teachers and civil servants in general.
The MAJORITY of Canadian employees, and self employed, have to work within the free market system, ...which MOST DEFINITELY effects ones income and even opportunity to be employed.
Unionised employees, civil servants in particular, are NOT,...unfortunately,…and are very minimally, if any, effected by the same market forces.
Wages and fringe benefits are artificially higher than the work performed and performance,… due to weak governments, black mail and threats by unions, and does NOT reflect any competition for said positions.
Private sector unions are not quite so lucky,...eventually market forces do catch up with them,...witness the CAW/UAW recently,...which again demonstrates why civil servant unions elicit such responses.
FAST
At least you now recognize these are separate issues.
Still waiting for an explanation of 'overpaying' though (one that makes sense at least).
Actually it is. They're talking about unpaid days which is a salary cut.
I'd add that since so many people in teacher bashing threads want to include benefits, their benefits are being cut.
Oh that 'law' which doesn't apply in employment? The flaw when applying it to employment is that as pay goes down, so does the incentive for strong candidates to apply.
It also assumes all employees are the same quality but they're not. Experience does count. Before my work schedule got in the way, I spent a good chunk of time coaching kids and although I entered it with a strong technical knowledge of the game, it took me a while to start understanding how to deal with kids with all sorts of backgrounds (and unlike teachers, I had the threat of benching them working in my favour - I feel sorry for teachers who have no effective threats). I would also have to be crazy to pay a fresh out of school engineer the same as one with experience until that new guy learned the specifics of the job and proved himself.
Yes, being able to get rid of bad teachers would be great but that has nothing to do with compensation.
Come On
Do not try paint this group as having more education that the average professional
Many get in the college with a 3 year BA & then get the Bachelor of Education degree (diploma)
None of that stacks up against the effort or degree of difficulty for most engineering, science or MBA programs.
Yet they are entitled to earn more than the average professional for 65 to 80% of the comparable work time
The difference is Teachers know that gov ts can be blackmailed & have been for the last thirty years
No way in hell would teachers get this kind of compensation in the private sector
Fire all of them & starting hiring @ 60K -pro-rated for the 9 1/2 months they actually work.
If as you say they are educated so well, most will have no issue finding a replacement position at the same salary, with the summer off and a similar benefits package, after -all are they not the best of the best ????? (What a joke)
Perhaps you may wish to view this issue from a more rational and pragmatic angle
http://www.osstf.on.ca/MR-Oct-03-2012
TORONTO, ON - Oct 03 2012 - “92% of 60,000 OSSTF/FEESO members employed in elementary and secondary school systems have voted in favour of supporting strike action. They are sending a very clear message to the McGuinty government; we stand strong and united in our desire to pursue unfettered local bargaining and in our absolute opposition to Bill 115,” said Ken Coran, President of the Ontario Secondary School Teachers’ Federation (OSSTF/FEESO).
“Our members have clearly indicated they want a collective bargaining process that involves local school boards and not the government. They do not want the undemocratic process that can be imposed by the Minister of Education as defined in Bill 115,” continued Coran.
“That process has created a confrontational, not collaborative environment. In early April, we acknowledged the financial concerns indicated by the government. We offered to accept a two year wage freeze in addition to proposing other cost saving measures. The Minister’s negotiating team, a team of lawyers, rejected them outright.
Instead, they left us with a ‘take it or leave it’ offer. That’s not a productive way to negotiate. That’s not how we solve problems together,” Coran stressed.
“We will continue to follow the process as laid out in the Ontario Labour Relations Act, and the taking of these strike votes is part of that process. When times get tough, people don’t expect their government to sacrifice basic rights of its citizens. They expect all parties to pull together to solve problems, something we have been willing to do from the start,” concluded President Coran
The number of people who want to be fire fighters and cops is pretty high as well.
Should we lower those salaries too?
Applications for medical schools is about 10 applicants for every 1 spot in the school never mind job prospects afterwards.
Should we lower salaries to prevent having too many people apply?
Having lots of people apply is a good thing. That means you have a deeper pool of talent to choose from.
To ensure that the pool can be better utilized we simply need to make it easier to fire the incompetent.
Should we lower those salaries too?
Applications for medical schools is about 10 applicants for every 1 spot in the school never mind job prospects afterwards.
Should we lower salaries to prevent having too many people apply?
Having lots of people apply is a good thing. That means you have a deeper pool of talent to choose from.
To ensure that the pool can be better utilized we simply need to make it easier to fire the incompetent.
Let's give every public sector employee a big fat raise each year. Just jack up everybody's taxes to pay for it. Hell, we all know EVERYONE in the private sector gets an automatic 3% wage increase every year. They can afford it, especially the elderly!
Oh sorry, I forgot, it's about "collective bargaining". That term makes me want to kick them in the nuts.
Clearly you missed all the posts where I said there should be a freeze. This post was in response to fuji's idea that we need to reduce salaries to deal wit hteh surplus of applicants for jobs.Let's give every public sector employee a big fat raise each year. Just jack up everybody's taxes to pay for it. Hell, we all know EVERYONE in the private sector gets an automatic 3% wage increase every year. They can afford it, especially the elderly!
So far cops, doctors, and teachers are all agreeable to freezes. Teachers are open to freezes plus cost saving measures.... so why not negotiate rather than force them to take a deal they don't want. Negotiations would imply a back and forth...... doesn't seem like that is occurring.
The process did not work
Non unionised citizens have rights too,...not to be bullied, (a term that the unions like to use ad nauseam) by civil servants.
FAST
Of coarse they want to deal with school boards,...they are the ones who got us in this mess in the 1st place,...by handing over blank cheques.
This statement is once again incorrect,..."its basic rights of unions",...not all citizens belong to unions.
Non unionised citizens have rights too,...not to be bullied, (a term that the unions like to use ad nauseam) by civil servants.
FAST
I'm a freelancer.
No steady check or benefits for a long, long time.
But despite that I'm glad to hear that there are still jobs with benefits and decent pay. Trying to argue for others in the middle class to be paid less is never going to get me any more money, even if you think taxes might go down a hair, all its really doing is exerting more downward pressure on the middle class.
Private sector workers need to be reminded that they used to have benefits, unions and half decent wages.
Meanwhile Scotiabank declared a record profit this quarter.
Think that means better wages for their workers?
Whos the boss
FAST
FRANK,...you have a lot of good ideas to reduce the cost of education,...but reading through them, just how many of them that relate deriectly to teachers,.would be accepted by the union.
FAST
Citizens are free to find jobs with unions. Let's not act like it's a secret club that people are suddenly discovering. If you choose to not be part of a union that's your choice, don't blame people for having a union and using it.
Do citizens choose to not use everything at their advantage to protect themselves?
If they were doing something that was not within their rights then I'd be upset. But what they are doing is legal.
Good point. Those cost savings from cuts will not trickle down to the taxpayer.
I looked at my last tax assessment.... I pay about 0.2% of the value of my home to education. Which works out to 1K and change. I guess I could send my kid to private school where the qualifications of teachers are more lax, curiculum may or may not be adhered to and I'm paying literally 15 to 30 times that amount. What a bargain.
That's my point, FAST. Teachers have no interest in actual bargaining because it doesn't fit within their "agenda".
How are they exploiting the student?? By not taking part in EXTRA duties? You're mistaking 'work to rule' with insubordination.
