Vice-Presidential Debate

[gryfin]

Cheney looked like a spent man

Cheney looked like a spent man in the last 15 minutes...like he was waiting for someone to give him his cocoa so he could go to sleep.

 

[langeweile]

and one more thought..
If Clinton has created 10 million new jobs and GWB has lost 2 Million.shouldn't we be ahead by 8 million?
Maybe not all of them made it to Cleveland?

 

[langeweile]

Is it snowing in Cleveland already?? Man that's early this year..

 

[langeweile]

Refrigerated meat keeps longer...i have no idea.

Don,

Don't despair the warmer winds of change is comming. GWB will win by 10 points. The R's are getting a large majority in the senate and in the house...hehehehe

that should make you feel all fuzzy again.

 

[onthebottom]

Have seen better, tend to call it a draw.

Edwards looked good, held his own and Cheney looked typical, good & scary.........

Didn't watch it, wanted to see the Twins beat the Yankee's (sadly couldn't do it two days in a row) but all my friends said Cheney kicked the kids ass - the above would be the best proof of that.

OTB

 

[onthebottom]

Question: Why do Canadians live longer than we do?

Don

They have fewer blacks living in dangerous neighborhoods selling crack and shooting people from cars.

Oh, sorry, forgot to do the PC response -

Because we don't want to wait in line for healthcare.

OTB

 

[Ickabod]

maybe those doctors were quacks who shouldn't be practicing medicine? Its easy to say the lawyers are to blame for rising costs, but why are the republicans so eager to take away or limit the right to sue doctors or HMO's or insurance companies?

I'm sure if HMO's and insurance companies gave you as much money as they give the Republicans, you'd wanna take away the rights of victims too.

Your point is spot on. Edwards offered a plan in the debate to actually limit frivolous lawsuits. Bush/Cheney think limiting the awards of legitimate lawsuits will eliminate frivolous ones. Not sure how that follows, but whatever.

And Edwards missed an opening when Cheney suggested limiting the lawyers percentage of awards. Edwards should have said he'll agree to that one when Cheney agrees to limiting CEO salaries.

 

[Ickabod]

maybe those doctors were quacks who shouldn't be practicing medicine? Its easy to say the lawyers are to blame for rising costs, but why are the republicans so eager to take away or limit the right to sue doctors or HMO's or insurance companies?

To follow up.......and the best part is, they wanna limit it to $250,000 with respect to non economic damages. A doctor takes out my healthy lung and leaves me with my cancer infested one, and they wanna limit me to $250,000.

Compare that concept to the $450,000 fine CBS was recently levied for exposing Janet Jackson's boob.

It's absurd in the extreme.

 

[Drunken Master]

They have fewer blacks living in dangerous neighborhoods selling crack and shooting people from cars.

Oh, sorry, forgot to do the PC response -

Because we don't want to wait in line for healthcare.

OTB

That's funny for so many reasons.

 

[langeweile]

Why would it get better when it all started in '01?
I suggest you stay in CA. It'll be easier for you to keep
your preconceptions than facing the real world down here.

Don in some ways you are a victim of your own citizenship.
For you to proclaim that the USA is in the dumpster is a comment made out of ignorance.
I have lived in Germany, Holland, USA and now in Canada. I have also family in Hungary.
There is not a country in the world that comes even close to the USA, and I include my own country in to that statement.

While about 50% of Americans are crying how bad their lives are, they don't realize how well off they are.
I sugest you look at the economic numbers from around the world and compare them to the USA.
The only country that comes somewhat close to the USA is Canada. Unfortunately Canada has chosen to follow Europe in it's ambition and will pay the same price economically, unless they see the light.(but that is a whole discussion in itself)

I agree that the USA is far from perfect. Issues like healthcare, deficit and social security are a mess and need to be fixed.
Let me assure you, that the other countries have the same issues.
The big difference is, that the US goverment believes in the power of it's own people and has chosen to stay out of becoming a "Nanny state".
The cradle to grave approach of most of Europe and Canada is doomed to fail. The cost related to these has put an unbearable burden on most of it's people.
I am watching with amazment how Canada is building more and more social programs, raising more and more taxes, in that ever optimistic believe that more money will fix the problem.
While all they have to do is look to what happened in Europe.

The mantra of the left, that the USA has become more divided than ever and more meaner than ever is election rhetoric, nothing more and nothing less.
It ignores the past. There is a book out (I wish I could remeber the author) that goes back to all the political campaigns of the past. You will be surprised about some of the "mean spirited" rhetoric that went on. It makes the current election look like a Ophrah show.
Just look at the election campaign of Abe Lincoln.
Lot of people decry the fact that our politicians are soo partisan. Personally I don't want them to get along too well. If they got to cozy with each other, can you imagine all the back room deals?

The American system was built on the premise of check and balance. Discussion, disagrement and controversy are built in, that is the genius of the whole system.

Don I suggest you live and work in another country for a year or two. Like me you will learn, that there is not a better place to live than the good ole USA.

 

[Ickabod]

but all my friends said Cheney kicked the kids ass - the above would be the best proof of that.

OTB

You have friends?

But seriously, i suppose if you were simply scoring it as a high school debate, perhaps you could make the case that Cheney won. My first thoughts were that Cheney actually won the foreign policy part of it (moreso due to the points Edwards didn't make that i thought he could have and should have than from anything Cheney actually said) with Edwards winning the domestic policy part of it.

But 2 days later, when what now sticks in my head was Edwards pointing out the administration lobbying to cut combat pay during a war, Edwards making his points about Halliburton, Edwards pointing out the Republican Senators referring to the "incompetence" of the administration and all i remember from Cheney was factcheck.com and "Gee, there's so much there i don't know where to start so i'll ignore it" sort of tactics, and his lie about never having met Edwards before, well, it makes me reconsider.

 

[WoodPeckr]

2 Days later also

But 2 days later, when what now sticks in my head was Edwards pointing out the administration lobbying to cut combat pay during a war, Edwards making his points about Halliburton, Edwards pointing out the Republican Senators referring to the "incompetence" of the administration and all i remember from Cheney was factcheck.com and "Gee, there's so much there i don't know where to start so i'll ignore it" sort of tactics, and his lie about never having met Edwards before, well, it makes me reconsider.

After watching I thought both sides made good points on the other, no knockout punch for either so thought it was a draw. 2 days later though Cheney did have those 3 blunders.
1 the factcheck.com,
2 saying he never met Edwards when it comes out now they have met SEVERAL TIMES before (there are pic & video proving this) how could he forget that?
And 3 he blurted out at one point in effect saying .....yeah, yeah he knows there was NO Connection between Saddam and Osama's AQ! When Cheney made this remark of no connection between Saddam and Osama I was surprised nobody or even Edwards picked up on it.

In light of this I think Edwards had the advantage and lead in this 'so called debate.'

 

[*d*]

Listen....listen carefully....these Islamic militants hate you...and me.And there happens to be a bunch of them out there. These people would rather blow themselves up than to see us live happy, fulfilled progressive lives. These are poor, uneducated, ill-informed individuals - who have a ten inch erection to kill you. Is it my fault they were born into this? no.

It may not personally be your fault that much of Islam is poor and oppressed. But is it entirely their own fault? If security is a real concern in the US, shouldn't the reasons for hatred be studied beyond the simple one-sided view of "they hate our freedom" or "their evil"?

 

[Ickabod]

Re: 2 Days later also

And 3 he blurted out at one point in effect saying .....yeah, yeah he knows there was NO Connection between Saddam and Osama's AQ! When Cheney made this remark of no connection between Saddam and Osama I was surprised nobody or even Edwards picked up on it.

I was remiss in not commenting on this too. I think you're referring to his comment that he never tried to connect Saddam Hussein with 9/11 - when he's done so on numerous occasions. Correct me if i'm wrong on that, but i too was pulling my hair out with that one. When he said it i thought "How could you say that, you putz" and when Edwards didn't call him on it i thought "How could you let him get away with saying that, you putz". Going back to my first comment, this is one of the things i held against Edwards for not saying that originally caused me to "grade" it for Cheney.

That said, i heard an interesting take on this whole thing yesterday. Someone brought up the point that trial lawyers (of which Edwards, as we know, is one) will, as a strategy, not call witnesses on their lies while they have them on the stand, and only confront the lies in closing arguments. This prevents the witness from having an opportunity to clarify or explain away the lie. Perhaps Edwards knew that lies so bold and brazen would be called out in the post debate analysis so he let them slide.

Apparently, even Edwards' wife on stage after the debate called Cheney out on the lie about Cheney never having met Edwards.

 

[Fortunato]

It may not personally be your fault that much of Islam is poor and oppressed. But is it entirely their own fault? If security is a real concern in the US, shouldn't the reasons for hatred be studied beyond the simple one-sided view of "they hate our freedom" or "their evil"?

Technically, it is "they're evil". But, nitpicking aside, it is astonishing at how anxious people are to believe that everyone else is so different than themselves. Arabs/Muslims are "crazy", or "uneducated", or "stupid", or "hateful", or (and this one really gets me) "jealous".

They are the SAME as you and I. They have the same characteristics, and (by and large), the same belief structures. What differences there are are entirely cosmetic.

See, they also have politicians (and OBL is, for all intents and purposes, a politician), and... get this: their politicians can LIE, too. They aren't attacking us out of hatred/jealousy, they WANT something... and, in the end, that something is ALWAYS money/resources/power.

Sure, they justify it using religion (or other arguments) to improve appearances. It's HARD to convince someone to strap a bomb to their ass for more money/resources/power for the leaders... sometimes you HAVE to tell them that the enemy is DIFFERENT, and it's what God wants. It's HARD to convince someone to put a bullet through an Iraqi's head for more money/resources/power for Exxon Mobil... so you HAVE to tell them that the enemy is DIFFERENT, and it's to keep your homeland safe (or that it's for his own good, or whatever the story is these days).


But guess what? They aren't the only ones. Wasn't the latest Iraq for WMD/liberation of Iraqis? (No). And, weren't the Crusades all about spreading Christianity to these "heathens"? (No). In fact... was there ever a war where the "real truth" was the "official story"? None come easily to mind....


This is why resolution will never come. Lies and deceptions, both internally and externally, that cannot (or will not) be abandoned. Even when confronted with the inconsistencies, these idiotic stereotypes hold on. And with bbk's of the world sucking it up from both sides and regurgitating hatred and believing that THEY are in any way DIFFERENT, there is no doubt why the politicians have come to rely so heavy on doling out this (racist) crap...

Because, it obviously WORKS. And, in the end, it is more valuable to have that tool to manipulate your people, than to actually try to identify (let alone resolve) the real problems.


Best regards,

F.

 

[assoholic]

..although I feel very niave saying this, the thing that I really cant stand about Cheeney and Bush are the continual lies. I know that all Governments lie, but at least they do it pretty well. With Bush and Cheeney it is simply consistant and not very well done. Like Cheeneys cvomment that before the debate he had never even met Edwards, then on the Daily show they showed the two of them sitting right beside each other at some Congressional function. What Bush & Co have brought into American Politics is an utter lack of respect for the American people, with their idiotic lies. Unfortunately a good chunk of Americans are proveing them right, they are just too dam lazy to find out the facts !

 

[langeweile]

"And again you show your lack of knowledge when you compare our social programs to some of those in Europe - our plans are not nearly as rich".

I suggest you read my post carefully, before you respond.
I did not say that Canada has the same programms as Europe has. I said Canada should is following the european model.
In the 70's and 80's most social programs in Europe, were at the same level as the current Canadian system. They soon found out that the cost for these programs far exceeded original estimates. In order to finace these programs they had to increase taxes.

Finally, today the income tax for the even the lowest brackest is getting close to 50%. If you know anyhting about economics you can figure out for yourself the impact on this on the overall economic climate.

Canada is heading in the same direction. What was McGuinty's answer to fix Ontario healthcare?
RAISE TAXES

What are some of Mr.Martins new proposals? National drug program and National child care program.
How is he going to pay for this? WITH TAX MONEY.
I wish people would realize that the only source of income for any goverment is taxes and taxes are collected from you and me. They are not the goverments money, it is yours and mine.

I have three children and my tax rate in Ontario is 42% . In Texas it was 24% and I didn't have to pay federal at all.
While social programs are well and good and necessary, they are subject to fraud, simply by their size.
Do you really believe that goverment has any motivation to be careful with your money? Who do you think knows how to spend your money better? You or Mr. Martin?



"I don't know Lange - I have the oportunity to live in both Countries and I choose to be Canadian, not that there is anything wrong with being American, I just prefer our view on minority rights to the melting pot."

Which view is that? Is that the view on how you treat the native Indians?
By shoving them off in to the most desolate areas of Canada so they are out of everybodies sight?


Bad news for you BBK. i probably going to be here for another 10 years or so.
And imagine soon I can call you "my fellow citizen".
I will have a German, American and Canadian passport.

 

[danmand]

[BI have three children and my tax rate in Ontario is 42% .
[/B]

Are you telling us that your income tax is 42% of your total income?

 

[langeweile]

YES
Not counting GST, PST, Gasoline tax, property tax..I am sure i forgot some

 

[danmand]

You need an accountant (if you are not simply lying) !