Unions...

[train]

De-certification is far more complex than one emplyee's gripes aginst a union.

QUOTE]

Easy to say tough to do . Particularly in Canada . Not sure if the decertification vote even has a secret ballot , independent count requirement . The cards are definitely stacked against you. Watch your knee caps also

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Not so...

2Fast....I think you need to check your facts.....

1. Machinery is permanent when required by law. Equipment that isn't is to allow for floor layout changes as new lines are brought in and out.

2. 60% of labour is not temp....yes there is temp labour as all manufacturers use temp labour as a form or working job interview to hire new staff.

3. Its magna policy that any temp who has been there more than 3 months must be hired permanent....why.....becuase after three months if they are temps or not they are eligible to vote on union certification.

4. Magna has no union because the benefits they receive including pay are better than unionized locations. Magna profit sharing far outperforms the CAW pension plan.

5. When Magan offered its employees a defined benefit pension plan or continued profit sharing (in 2000) 96% of employees continued with the profit sharing plan.

6. Magna does not replace its temps every 90 days to avoid making them eligible for union vote.....there is no way to remain competitive if every 90 days you replace 60 percent of hte workforce and retrain them.

7. Stronach is anti-union.....every employer is.......but he won't pull up and go to Mexico..there isn't the infrastructure to do so even if he wanted to.

8. Magna development in north america and expansion has been far greater in the US and Canada than in Mexico.

9. Tesma Int'l....the most profitable group within Magna has only expanded in Canada and the US and has no location is Mexico nor does it plan to.


How do I know I this.......I work for Magna in strategic planning and have run several of their plants......the success comes from the flexibility of the operations and the labour force..something you can't have when you're constantly battling with the CAW.

 

[auto doctor]

2Fast....I think you need to check your facts.....

1. Machinery is permanent when required by law. Equipment that isn't is to allow for floor layout changes as new lines are brought in and out.

2. 60% of labour is not temp....yes there is temp labour as all manufacturers use temp labour as a form or working job interview to hire new staff.

3. Its magna policy that any temp who has been there more than 3 months must be hired permanent....why.....becuase after three months if they are temps or not they are eligible to vote on union certification.

4. Magna has no union because the benefits they receive including pay are better than unionized locations. Magna profit sharing far outperforms the CAW pension plan.

5. When Magan offered its employees a defined benefit pension plan or continued profit sharing (in 2000) 96% of employees continued with the profit sharing plan.

6. Magna does not replace its temps every 90 days to avoid making them eligible for union vote.....there is no way to remain competitive if every 90 days you replace 60 percent of hte workforce and retrain them.

7. Stronach is anti-union.....every employer is.......but he won't pull up and go to Mexico..there isn't the infrastructure to do so even if he wanted to.

8. Magna development in north america and expansion has been far greater in the US and Canada than in Mexico.

9. Tesma Int'l....the most profitable group within Magna has only expanded in Canada and the US and has no location is Mexico nor does it plan to.


How do I know I this.......I work for Magna in strategic planning and have run several of their plants......the success comes from the flexibility of the operations and the labour force..something you can't have when you're constantly battling with the CAW.

Fark I hate CAW....I'm not anti union but the CAW....The union reps a couple of years ago went on strike against the CAW union... That is not a typing error either.

 

[2fast]

2Fast....I think you need to check your facts.....

1. Machinery is permanent when required by law. Equipment that isn't is to allow for floor layout changes as new lines are brought in and out.

2. 60% of labour is not temp....yes there is temp labour as all manufacturers use temp labour as a form or working job interview to hire new staff.

3. Its magna policy that any temp who has been there more than 3 months must be hired permanent....why.....becuase after three months if they are temps or not they are eligible to vote on union certification.

4. Magna has no union because the benefits they receive including pay are better than unionized locations. Magna profit sharing far outperforms the CAW pension plan.

5. When Magan offered its employees a defined benefit pension plan or continued profit sharing (in 2000) 96% of employees continued with the profit sharing plan.

6. Magna does not replace its temps every 90 days to avoid making them eligible for union vote.....there is no way to remain competitive if every 90 days you replace 60 percent of hte workforce and retrain them.

7. Stronach is anti-union.....every employer is.......but he won't pull up and go to Mexico..there isn't the infrastructure to do so even if he wanted to.

8. Magna development in north america and expansion has been far greater in the US and Canada than in Mexico.

9. Tesma Int'l....the most profitable group within Magna has only expanded in Canada and the US and has no location is Mexico nor does it plan to.


How do I know I this.......I work for Magna in strategic planning and have run several of their plants......the success comes from the flexibility of the operations and the labour force..something you can't have when you're constantly battling with the CAW.

Formet industries, in St.Thomas (Magna) and Presstran in St Thomas (also magna) use temps on an ongoing basis. Its a 9 month contract at Presstran, and a one year contract at Formet. Look into it if you work for them. They hire VERY FEW temps permanently and even when they hire it's only AFTER THE CONTRACT ENDS. If you work for Magna on any level, you are very either (a) very missinformed, or (b) spreading bullshit propaganda on their behalf.

I have worked for Formet on two occasions and fullfilled my one year contract AS A TEMP, and then been bounced out to make way for new temps.

There are no laws requiring any machinery to be permanent by law. It's a privately owned company that can emply the plant with proper notice to employess and move it anywhere they please leaving a one million square foot cement pad with no restrictions from the government whatsoever.

Some factories use temps as a "working interview" i'll give you that, but Magna isn't one of them. Magna relies on temps long term for production and limits their contract length to pervent temps from assuming that they will become permanent. Fully the majority of workers in the plant i worked at are temps, of course i don't have exact figures, but there were more temps that permanent employees. Period.

Obviously they do not drop every temp at once, as you said..... it would be impossible to maintain any kind of level of quality production. All the temps have different start dates, and therefore different dates that their contract ends.

Finally, Magna employess don't make anwhere close to what a CAW member makes in an auto plant. Average Magna employee makes near $20/hr, where auto plant workers are over $31/hr Magna employess get regular vacation time according to what the law requires, CAW auto workers get that, plus two SPA paid weeks per year over and above vacation time, 80 hours paid SPA days, four day weekends for most stat holidays, great pensions and the list goes on.

Having worked for Magna, i'll gladly admit that they offer a few nice perks, but in no way whatsoever does it compare to what you get in a CAW auto plant.

Magna is the single most guilty party in this country ruining our workforce by using temp labour as a staple in production, leaving so many people with zero security in their job.

Sorry for writing a book and for any typos, i'm in a rush.

 

[papasmerf]

For those of you who belong to unions and think their time has passed, you know you can vote OUT the union if the membership is so inclined.
Of coursre this will mean putting your money where your mouth is so to speak.

Give that some thought

contractors are forbiden from bidding on some jobs, unless they are UNION

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

You worked as a TEMP

2Fast.....you worked as a TEMP on the production floor yet you seem to think you know more about the operation of a plant than I do?

Last time I checked we didn't usually inform temps of all managements strategies and labour practices, policies, etc. Nor do I think you were privy to the headcounts and employement status of the other 1,000 employees that are at Formet alone.

Let's face it....if you were that good at doing your job you would have been hired at the expiration of your contract.


Clarification: Health and safety codes require some equipment to be permanently mounted to the concrete. Private company or not.

Why will Magna not just pack up and go to Mexico? Unlike most manufacturers Magna does not rent its buildings but owns and builds them. All of them. If Magna was to abandon the two buildings you mentioned in St. thomas (each over 1 million square feet....I've been to both) who do you suppose would by them?

The divisions you also mentioned are less than 10 years old and state of the art technology found nowhere else in the world and duplicated by no one.....why did they just not start the plants in Mexico?

You talk of wages, etc at the Big 3 auto plants...want you forgot to mention was the annual shutdown and downturns in production....todays paper alone talks of Ford cutting two shifts at the minivan plant until the end of the summer...a shutdown that began last summer. There has been no similar staff reduction at Magna....including temp reductions.....because Magna has a more diverse customer base. Each Magna facility is producing parts for a number of different vehicles and programs....assembly plants are typically producing and assembling a single vehicle.

Also, when you are speaking of the Big 3, you are talking about vehicle assembly plants, not auto parts producers.....its apples and oranges, but nonetheless your work load is far more stable at Magna than the big 3.

If as you say the majority of the workers are temps, then why have these temps not voted in a union as doing so under canadian labour law would automatically make them full time employees, receiving pensions, benefits, etc?

The answer is simple, Magna keeps temps to a minimum to avoid such an occurrence. And the permanent employees do not want the CAW as they know they are better off without it.

 

[strange1]

Clarification: Health and safety codes require some equipment to be permanently mounted to the concrete. Private company or not.

Permanently mounted means that they can not be moved around the plant in the course of opperation. It does not mean that the machinery can not be replaced or sold. If it did, companies would have to build a new plant any time they want to upgrade.

 

[2fast]

2Fast.....you worked as a TEMP on the production floor yet you seem to think you know more about the operation of a plant than I do?

Last time I checked we didn't usually inform temps of all managements strategies and labour practices, policies, etc. Nor do I think you were privy to the headcounts and employement status of the other 1,000 employees that are at Formet alone.

Let's face it....if you were that good at doing your job you would have been hired at the expiration of your contract.


Clarification: Health and safety codes require some equipment to be permanently mounted to the concrete. Private company or not.

Why will Magna not just pack up and go to Mexico? Unlike most manufacturers Magna does not rent its buildings but owns and builds them. All of them. If Magna was to abandon the two buildings you mentioned in St. thomas (each over 1 million square feet....I've been to both) who do you suppose would by them?

The divisions you also mentioned are less than 10 years old and state of the art technology found nowhere else in the world and duplicated by no one.....why did they just not start the plants in Mexico?

You talk of wages, etc at the Big 3 auto plants...want you forgot to mention was the annual shutdown and downturns in production....todays paper alone talks of Ford cutting two shifts at the minivan plant until the end of the summer...a shutdown that began last summer. There has been no similar staff reduction at Magna....including temp reductions.....because Magna has a more diverse customer base. Each Magna facility is producing parts for a number of different vehicles and programs....assembly plants are typically producing and assembling a single vehicle.

Also, when you are speaking of the Big 3, you are talking about vehicle assembly plants, not auto parts producers.....its apples and oranges, but nonetheless your work load is far more stable at Magna than the big 3.

If as you say the majority of the workers are temps, then why have these temps not voted in a union as doing so under canadian labour law would automatically make them full time employees, receiving pensions, benefits, etc?

The answer is simple, Magna keeps temps to a minimum to avoid such an occurrence. And the permanent employees do not want the CAW as they know they are better off without it.

1. Permanently mounted means bolted to the floor my friend. When you turn the wrench to the left it comes undone, clear?

2. Temps have not voted in a union because they work for Express Personnel, not Formet, clear?

3. You are the one who said Magna has better wages and benefits than the CAW, i gave you clear examples of where you're worng. Apples and oranges it is, but Magna is not the industry leader in benefits as you would have everyone believe.

4. I don't need to be privy to headcounts. i worked on the floor, for two years and have several great friends in there, there are more temps than permanent employees, i saw it in person as i worked.

5. I was that good at my job, so stick it up your ass my good man. I as specifically requested so often from team leaders, and area leaders in there so much that i almost found myself begging to be left in peace to do my work. That aside, i'm not here to toot my horn. I was not hired because of the usual bullshit including but not limited to nepitism, and formet's version of affirmative action.

6. Changed your tune now about Magna's "working interview" and hiring the temps permanently after 3 months now i see.

7. Sure, SOME auto plants have had downtime as you've mentioned, but it's the exeption, not the rule so i'm not sure what your point is. Magna reduces the temp force all the time for various reasons, INCLUDING production slowdowns. But FYI when the employees in a big 3 plant ore on layoff, they are taking home over 90% of their wages uncludind sub and EI.

Finally, the notion that Magna keeps temps to a minimum is so laughable that i have no respone. Seems we've hijacked this thread, and after this response i'm finished. Go ahead and respond, but i think we'll just have to dissagree on this subject.

 

[Keebler Elf]

So if they barely break even then that means 83% goes to paying for Buzz and his buddies to do what exactly?
Fact=union membership is dropping . Why? Just a guess but maybe they aren't worth the dues ?

What stupid comments to make. The money goes into a strike fund, so when they really need the money it's there. They're not blowing the bank every year on strikes or grievances. But when you don't have anything in the bank, it's kinda hard to threaten a longterm strike now isn't it? Duh. It also goes to administration, fixed costs, paying for education centres to educate people about social issues, etc., etc., etc. I realize you're trying to paint a picture that union leaders are corrupt and living off the backs of their members, but then that's what I expect from your type.

I'm not educated on American unions so I can't comment on them. From what I've heard though, corruption is much higher in the US than in Canada. But I'm Canadian, so I'm not too interested in American unionism. It's a whole 'nother ballgame down there.

As for making salaries public, that's really none of your or my business now is it. That's for the union membership to decide, and that's why many unions have constitutions that determine whose salary is made public and whose isn't. But just so you know, the big name union leaders such as Buzz are underpaid for what their management counterparts would be paid. That's part of the reason why so many senior union leaders jump ship to better-paying management jobs.

Union membership is dropping for many reasons. The uneducated, ignorant people with an anti-union bias like to foster the belief that membership is dropping b/c people don't like unions. Wrong. Membership is mostly dropping due to our shift away from primary and secondary industries to the tertiary service industries that have traditionally been much less unionized (and union complacency didn't help). Thus, the current push by most unions into the service sector. The Tories have also had a hand in reducing unionization rates, though to a much lesser degree.

 

[Chivas Regal]

3 sides to every story...

To 2fast and Hugh,

You both present opions to both sides of the story, however, the are slanted to represent your own feelings. Yes, many privately owned comanies employ large temporary workers. The reason being is to save money on permanent employee benefits. Large corps like Magna and others have no desire to hire these employees full time, nor is it a hiring pool for permanent employment. There are rules in place to prevent this from happening.
The tempory workforce in Ontario and other states/provinces keep these companies competitive by keeping cost down.It is a transient workforce and yes there are a few gems, but many are not that skilled.I feel empathy for these workers as many are immigrants that are highly educated but cannot find work in their respective fields of expertise.
2fast is valid in his opinion that the temp force is larger than the permanent force. This is often true in many large businesses.The hire times are staggered, and they can only work 1500 hours per contract to avoid reaching full time status. The must leave for 3 months before resuming their next contract.At $10-$15/hr with no benefits this is a tough go.
Getting back to the original topic, i.e. Unions, there are many sides to this issue. Essentially it depends on the individual as to which way they want to be employed. As a non unionized employee working for a fair employer you have more input to the outcome of your future. That is to say you are autonomous. As a Union member you are at the mercy of the group. You must follow the Unions direction with a minimal amount of input.
The decision is entirely up to the individual, which path he or she chooses.

My .02 cents

Chivas Regal

 

[Gord's Bro]

Essentially it depends on the individual as to which way they want to be employed. As a non unionized employee working for a fair employer you have more input to the outcome of your future. That is to say you are autonomous. As a Union member you are at the mercy of the group. You must follow the Unions direction with a minimal amount of input.
The decision is entirely up to the individual, which path he or she chooses.

Well put. Sums up both sides honestly. Thank you.

G's B.

I might add that you should be a politician!!!

 

[Chivas Regal]

Well put. Sums up both sides honestly. Thank you.

G's B.

I might add that you should be a politician!!!

Thanks Gord's Bro, but really who in their right mind would do that for a living??? I would have a very short career as a politicol after they starting looking into my private life

Chivas

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

2fast

Let me explain it to you more slowly:

Under Ontario Labour Law, any TEMP employee who has been at a location more than 3 months is entitled to participate in UNION votes. It doesn't matter who the temp is employed by.....temp agency or the company.....if they have been onsite more than 3 months they are entitled to vote.


Its nice that you have a few friends there and worked on the floor (all three shifts and at all places), I too have been there, seen all the records, etc and you are full of crap. Stop exagerating facts you were not privy too but I was/am.

 

[sirduke]

Unions serve no valuable purpose any longer

At one time when working conditions and pay were so deplorable Unions were of benefit to protect the worker. Now Unions, at least in the States, create an "us and them" mentality which is not in the best interest of the company, its customers, management or the employees. The only ones that benefit are.... the Unions. Any employer, in order to be competitive, must do right by their employees with regard to compensation and work environment.

I now work in a Union enviornment for the first time in my over 20 years of professional life. The time, energy and resources this orgnization expends to deal with Union nonsense is appalling. And, the attitude of the front line workers is frought with mediocrity and apathy.

How in God's name educated people can willingly fork over their union dues every paycheck is mind boggling to me.

 

[Chivas Regal]

2Fast....I think you need to check your facts.....

3. Its magna policy that any temp who has been there more than 3 months must be hired permanent....why.....becuase after three months if they are temps or not they are eligible to vote on union certification.

How do I know I this.......I work for Magna in strategic planning and have run several of their plants......the success comes from the flexibility of the operations and the labour force..something you can't have when you're constantly battling with the CAW.

Okay Hugh, help me out here.I am not a labour law specialist but I have read the CAW file related to Contract/Temp workers http://www.caw.ca/news/allcawnewsletters/legal/lawfeb91.asp#BackToTop and have found nothing to support your 3 month hiring practice.Is this specific to Magna?

Either there is a large consiracy out there- to keep the public ignorant, or I'm missing something here.

Chivas Regal

 

[auto doctor]

Let me explain it to you more slowly:

Under Ontario Labour Law, any TEMP employee who has been at a location more than 3 months is entitled to participate in UNION votes. It doesn't matter who the temp is employed by.....temp agency or the company.....if they have been onsite more than 3 months they are entitled to vote.


Its nice that you have a few friends there and worked on the floor (all three shifts and at all places), I too have been there, seen all the records, etc and you are full of crap. Stop exagerating facts you were not privy too but I was/am.

The Harris goverment allowed the NON_ UNION MEMBERS to vote ON UNION MEMBERS issues.( Which members that have been in for years have paid dues for years) So these poor new guys pay dues but are not PART OF THE UNION. THEY COULD NOT GRIEVE TERMINATION or LAYOFFS but had to pay dues.. So the tories said lets nail the new workers with the dues but not the benifits of membership. And on top of that lets have these new workers have a say in a union he/she not a member of. Does that sound Farking fair....no it is Union busting from the GOVERMENT of the day.


I'm pretty sure if you joined a new golf club and paid your membership dues you would DEMAND to be treated the same as the rest of the members?? And if you got kick out of the club you would want a fair hearing. Or would you like to have the tory rules apply to you.?????????

 

[booboobear]

Wejust recently voted in a union, don't even have a contract yet and management has already put some positive changes in place. Without some sort of advocacy employers have just about unlimited power over people, and power corrupts. The dues seem worth it to have a needed counter balance.

BTW "top performers" are often in the eye of the beholder, and merely those most willing to "suck up" to the boss - look at the new US Secretary of State as a concrete example.

If it took a union to get your management to put in positive changes then you have poor management.
I hate unions , worked where they had an office union my increases were limited to the contract same percent as the slackers . After we got rid of the union I did way better , the slackers of course did not.
If you go on strike for 4 months and get only strike pay let me know how you still feel . You know who benefits the most from unions ,the union field reps and bosses , I saw what they make. Of course they pretend to have your interests at heart. Unions did have a place at one point and even without unions you can still have employee committees if you are concerned about bad bosses,

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Allow me to clarify....TEMP employees can vote in union certification votes. That is if the CAW approached employees at a Magna Plant all permanent employees and all temps with greater than three months service are eligible to vote in certification. Should certification pass, all temps automatically become union member and full time employees with all benefits.

This is why Magna and other companies keep temp numbers low, because temps always vote in favour of the union as it then grants them pernament status and benefits.

2Fast, with reference to CAW, etc. CAW represents far more employees and industries than just the Big 3 and automotive. That is why I said apples and oranges, you seem to imply that CAW were only in the auto sector.

Also, you said you weren't hired due to affirmative action and nepotism. Those can be factors, but since Ontario no longer has "quotas" for hiring practices I doubt that was the case.

Furthermore, were you aware that over 90% of a managers compensation is based upon profitability bonuses? Base salaries are very minimal, they get awarded for performance. Therefore to increase performance you don't move factories around, you don't continually turnover your workforce and you do make sure the best employees and temps get hired otherwise the manager is only hurting themself.

 

[teach]

At one time when working conditions and pay were so deplorable Unions were of benefit to protect the worker. Now Unions, at least in the States, create an "us and them" mentality which is not in the best interest of the company, its customers, management or the employees. The only ones that benefit are.... the Unions. Any employer, in order to be competitive, must do right by their employees with regard to compensation and work environment.

I now work in a Union enviornment for the first time in my over 20 years of professional life. The time, energy and resources this orgnization expends to deal with Union nonsense is appalling. And, the attitude of the front line workers is frought with mediocrity and apathy.

How in God's name educated people can willingly fork over their union dues every paycheck is mind boggling to me.

SirDuke, you and I are on the same page... most union people I have worked with are lazy, incompetent people who do very little to earn their salary... don't believe me? go down to city hall one day and try to get anything done... that's our tax dollars at work... instead of paying individuals based on their skills and ability to create value, employers are forced to pay union wages for a bunch of morons that feel they are entitled what they get... once unions had a place in this society, today they are archaic and out of touch with reality. I'm not advocating getting rid of them, but they need to realize things are very different today and change their ways...

 

[auto doctor]

Magna

Let me help you clarify things. For a Union certification vote to occur thier has to be no union representing the workers. The definition of Temp or full time worker has no bearing on the eligiblity of voting for certification. The union that is working for certification will seek to have some worker not participate in the vote. Those workers would be BOSSES SUPERVISORS MANAGERS ect in the opinion of the union. If the vote is sucessful then a first contract has to be established within a prescribe time.

The jargon of full time part time status that you describe is your company policy only. (since you do not have a union) At your company the worker has no recourse and the company holds everything. In three month the worker will be laid off and a another bunch will replace them. If you did not lay him off the workers would have the right to go to the labour board or just sue you for termination without just cause.

The tories have helped a lot of companies to skirt around the law and make the abuse of worker easier. Scab labour was reintroduced by the tories and people were killed and injured because if it.

Sleep tight enjoy your performance pay.....

P.S. please Magna go to Mexico ....the public health system is really good for you. The general polution laws are good and people will work for three month without complianing..Unless you take away thier afternoon naps. And your product Quality will reflect that country well. Don't worry about your ISO 9000 certification I'am sure Juan Valdez can get you one and the big three auto maker will over look that slight issue.
I