Unions...

l69norm

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Jan 25, 2004
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booboobear said:
....Unions did have a place at one point and even without unions you can still have employee committees if you are concerned about bad bosses...
Employee committees sort of work. The big disadvantage is that the agreements have no legal standing and the employer can walk away at any time. I've been through this where the president of the company changes and the new president just wants to clean house.

It's was ironic that the new president of the company was also a past president of the employee association !!!

It also goes to show you that you cannot assume all "union members" are uneducated and no nothing about running the company and that "management" knows nothing about working on the floor.
 

l69norm

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Jan 25, 2004
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teach said:
.... i argue they do not, not in they way they operate today... and you nailed it on the head, why don't we get performance based bonuses? why don't we get compensated for what we ACTUALLY do? Why do I get paid the same amount as the idiot next to me who does literally less than 1/2 of what i do? Because, i'm part of a union and the idiot next to me is also part of a union.
If you don't like the way the union is doing things, then get involved.

It's the membership that provides the direction during contract negociations. We had a 37% pay spread based on individual employee performance with a yearly formalized review because that is what the membership wanted.

I used to see this every 2 years when it comes time to elect new stewards or when it comes time to set the contract negociation priorities. The people who strongly believe in change never come forward or can't be bothered to participate. I can clearly remember having to hound some people out of thier offices to the union certification vote.
 
My company had a Union for 45 years, and my staff recently voted to decertify. In our industry, unionized companies were closing one after another. Mergers have become a necessity for survival and non-union shops simply won't have anything to do with mergers with union shops. Generally wages and benefits are about the same. The main differences, I found, are things like layoff protection for more senior staff, and rules governing overtime and so on.

Since our guys decertified, we are in a much better position to compete, albeit they have given up some perks, reluctantly.

For many years, we used to negotiate with an employees committee, but in more recent times, the Union would send in paid staff to negotiate, frequently without even consulting with our staff. When the Union doubled the dues, the guys really started to get pissed.

When the decertification process started (by the guys in the shop..) the Union fought it hard, lied, denied agreements had happened, tried to bribe 'undecided' employees etc. We were within 24 hours of a full-blown OLB hearing, when the Union's lawyer finally told them to drop it. At that point, the Union's position was that since one of our staff members had used the office fax machine, "Management" (me!) was behind the whole thing, which is illegal. Bear in mind that all of this occured after the guys had voted 86% in favour of decertification.

Two years later, the guys have given up a little bit of overtime (more a theoretical problem than actual...), we laid off one guy who had seniority (but whom all the guys agreed was the supreme 'seducer of the hound'...) and we are doing well.

IMHO, Unions served a purpose years ago, but they of little use now. Over hear in Hammertown, the union at Stelco may well succeed in putting that Company out of business (not singlr-handedly, I should add...) and those guys will never find work in this area at similar pay... Unfortunately that attitude is seen as "typical" in this community which is one of the reasons we have trouble attracting new business...

As a footnote, our guys know that they could have the Union back in here in 24 hours with one phonce call, and there's nothing we could do about it... it has never even been suggested as far as I know... The younger staff is getting all of the extra time they want and I think everyone feels much better about their jobs now too...
 

laurelg@maggies

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Sep 14, 2003
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In theory unions are an excellent idea, and I think they are still needed. In practice there are flaws, especially when the head of a union is no different then a CEO of a corporation. Some unions have turned into another form of business that the praetorian profit off of, instead of an organization that is truly about workers' rights.
 

teach

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May 16, 2003
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laurelg@maggies said:
In theory unions are an excellent idea, and I think they are still needed. In practice there are flaws, especially when the head of a union is no different then a CEO of a corporation. Some unions have turned into another form of business that the praetorian profit off of, instead of an organization that is truly about workers' rights.
Actually, in theory unions are a terrible idea. Just like subsidies and price supports are bad ideas... they reduce the efficiency of the market... in practice, they can do real good, unfortunately, today that is generally not the case.
 

laurelg@maggies

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Sep 14, 2003
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teach said:
Actually, in theory unions are a terrible idea. Just like subsidies and price supports are bad ideas... they reduce the efficiency of the market... in practice, they can do real good, unfortunately, today that is generally not the case.

I will agree that unions might not be good for overall profits and all that fun stuff, but I said they are good in theory, as my personal belief that people are more important then the market. Different strokes for different folks, right? :)

Just out of curiosity, when do you think the effectiveness went down hill?
 

teach

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May 16, 2003
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laurelg@maggies said:
I will agree that unions might not be good for overall profits and all that fun stuff, but I said they are good in theory, as my personal belief that people are more important then the market. Different strokes for different folks, right? :)

Just out of curiosity, when do you think the effectiveness went down hill?
institutions such as unions and government regulations etc are necessary to compensate for the market as the market can't take everything in to consideration, for example, how do you price the value of safe neighbourhoods and clean air... that said, the market is surprisingly effective. today's market is global and if those institutions do not reflect the macro economic forces of the market then they become bottlenecks and eventually hurt the economy as a whole, this hurts everyone. institutions should serve to "nudge" the market towards the the right path, not be a roadblock... unions as they exist today are not reflective of modern times and they are more and more becoming roadblocks...

as for when I think the effectiveness started to go down hill that i can't answer, someone else more qualified than I may be able to answer that...
 

laurelg@maggies

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Sep 14, 2003
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teach said:
institutions such as unions and government regulations etc are necessary to compensate for the market as the market can't take everything in to consideration, for example, how do you price the value of safe neighbourhoods and clean air... that said, the market is surprisingly effective. today's market is global and if those institutions do not reflect the macro economic forces of the market then they become bottlenecks and eventually hurt the economy as a whole, this hurts everyone. institutions should serve to "nudge" the market towards the the right path, not be a roadblock... unions as they exist today are not reflective of modern times and they are more and more becoming roadblocks...
Ah, gotcha. I agree that if the market is not doing well, then it effects everyone. I guess I just have qualms with how the market is sometimes used. I will admit though, trying to read too much about economics makes my eyes cross :D
 

Hugh Jorgan

Motivational Speaker
Jan 29, 2005
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In a van down by the river
Autodoctor

Autodoctor....

Stop sniffing the fumes on the factory floor and get back to your broom and mop.

I hear there might even be a job opening for you in the sh#t shovellers union.

Entry level management job.....LOL......read the earlier posts......I've risen from the plant level to the corporate level....so something tells me I know a little bit more than you do (note extreme sarcasm).


KeeblerElf........excellent points......very well said.
 
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