You also have to consider that in those figures, they are looking at the cost of manufacturing a vehicle. Removed from that, is the fact that the company that is producing the parts for most of the auto manufacturers are also part of the CAW and the company producing the sheet medal for "raw materials" is part of the steel workers union. Inflated labour costs start from the bottom and work their way through.
Unions - Pros & Cons in Sun Articles
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Exactly.futurelegend said:You also have to consider that in those figures, they are looking at the cost of manufacturing a vehicle. Removed from that, is the fact that the company that is producing the parts for most of the auto manufacturers are also part of the CAW and the company producing the sheet medal for "raw materials" is part of the steel workers union. Inflated labour costs start from the bottom and work their way through.
Unless the system is totally automated then there are labour costs associated with every facet of every part or material used in the production chain.
Also, Bud, if you're going to include things like marketing costs in your argument then I should be allowed to include things like break rooms, a/c etc in labour costs.
Also, if you want to include items like marketing, like the associated costs associated with labour, those costs are amortized over a large production run of many items where labour costs are directly attached to each item. For eg: it cost man 1 x amount of time to do his part of item 1. In my biz that could add up to 100 hrs.
yes but either those parts are either made here or made overseas. if the parts are made here then they should be captured by the industry canada stat (ie 6% of manufacturing costs) and if they are made overseas- then likely the labour cost as a percent of the total cost is less.tboy said:Exactly.
Unless the system is totally automated then there are labour costs associated with every facet of every part or material used in the production chain.
I was in a union once
Yrs ago I worked at Douglas Aircraft as a student.
I remember thinking I was in some kind of
different planet similar to earth but not earth
.....I
Climb only 3 rungs on a ladder
Could not carry a hammer
Could not use a razor
Had to call for another worker to help if I carried anything over 20 lbs.
I was told by a union rep while taking a leak that I had to SLOW down, I was
working too fucking fast.As a kid I was afraid
I saw--others punch in and out fellow workers time cards WHILE the supervisor was there.
I saw workers sleep in steel stores
I saw workers play floor hockey behind steel stores
I saw workers read,eat,drink outside the stringer bay..Great view of planes taking off and landing .
I hated every minute of working there, except the pay check.
Douglas left Canada, wonder why.
Unions are just a business taking $$$$ from workers and screwing
their employers.
I would rather have a barium enema then join a union.
That is all
db
Yrs ago I worked at Douglas Aircraft as a student.
I remember thinking I was in some kind of
different planet similar to earth but not earth
.....I
Climb only 3 rungs on a ladder
Could not carry a hammer
Could not use a razor
Had to call for another worker to help if I carried anything over 20 lbs.
I was told by a union rep while taking a leak that I had to SLOW down, I was
working too fucking fast.As a kid I was afraid
I saw--others punch in and out fellow workers time cards WHILE the supervisor was there.
I saw workers sleep in steel stores
I saw workers play floor hockey behind steel stores
I saw workers read,eat,drink outside the stringer bay..Great view of planes taking off and landing .
I hated every minute of working there, except the pay check.
Douglas left Canada, wonder why.
Unions are just a business taking $$$$ from workers and screwing
their employers.
I would rather have a barium enema then join a union.
That is all
db
Bull fucking shit.simplyaguy said:Unions encourage mediocre or substandard work.
I am a union tradesman and the opposite is true.
We (unionized tradesmen/women) pride ourselves on maintaining a higher standard of quality craftsmanship compared to the non union sector.
All large scale commercial and industrial jobs that I work such as car plants, power generating stations and projects such as these are awarded to union contractors because we possess the skills for such major projects to be completed properly and safely.
Non union shops don't.
Dajodo2 - you are a dinosaur and pretty soon you and your Union 'BROTHERS' will go the way of the dinoaur - you will be extinct 'my brother'! loldajodo2 said:Bull fucking shit.
I am a union tradesman and the opposite is true.
We (unionized tradesmen/women) pride ourselves on maintaining a higher standard of quality craftsmanship compared to the non union sector.
All large scale commercial and industrial jobs that I work such as car plants, power generating stations and projects such as these are awarded to union contractors because we possess the skills for such major projects to be completed properly and safely.
Non union shops don't.
Look at General Motors - 7 years ago or so the AVERAGE salray at GM was $ 60,000.00 per year! AVERAGE Dajodo2 !!!!!!!!! The Unions and the Union members destroyed the auto industry with their pure GREED and I for one do not feel sorry for any of them - they did it to themselves and they deserve to be exactly where they are today.
If someone cannot stand on their own in the workplace - if they NEED a Union standing up for them / 'protecting' them, then that is a very sad commentary. GET RID OF ALL UNIONS AND MOST PROBELSM WILL BE SOLVED !!!!!!!
You think $60,000 per year is an exorbitant amount of money?peter4 said:Dajodo2 - you are a dinosaur and pretty soon you and your Union 'BROTHERS' will go the way of the dinoaur - you will be extinct 'my brother'! lol
Look at General Motors - 7 years ago or so the AVERAGE salray at GM was $ 60,000.00 per year! AVERAGE Dajodo2 !!!!!!!!! The Unions and the Union members destroyed the auto industry with their pure GREED and I for one do not feel sorry for any of them - they did it to themselves and they deserve to be exactly where they are today.
If someone cannot stand on their own in the workplace - if they NEED a Union standing up for them / 'protecting' them, then that is a very sad commentary. GET RID OF ALL UNIONS AND MOST PROBELSM WILL BE SOLVED !!!!!!!
I don't.
I was going to reply to your post but you strike me as a bit simplistic and bullheaded so I thought to hell with it.
Enjoy your life and I will continue to enjoy mine.
60k for unskilled work? that is crazy.
yet a daycare worker that takes care of infants/toddlers and teaches them life lessons and protects... they make what 30k on average.
ECE requires a diploma and at least 2yrs college. 30k...
60k for screwing in bolts on a car door?
yet a daycare worker that takes care of infants/toddlers and teaches them life lessons and protects... they make what 30k on average.
ECE requires a diploma and at least 2yrs college. 30k...
60k for screwing in bolts on a car door?
And to the person that said, GM lowering prices won't help compete with japanese cars.
I read somewhere that the reason the Japanese were able to leap past GM/Ford was that they don't have a union to tie them down cost wise.
SO they were able to spend more on research and improvements while GM/Ford had to increasingly spend more money on unions and labour. They couldn't nimbly adjust the market since they were tied down to paying these labours and unions.
I'd have to find the article but it was an eye opener.
I think the article was written when Toyota took over GM for first place.
I read somewhere that the reason the Japanese were able to leap past GM/Ford was that they don't have a union to tie them down cost wise.
SO they were able to spend more on research and improvements while GM/Ford had to increasingly spend more money on unions and labour. They couldn't nimbly adjust the market since they were tied down to paying these labours and unions.
I'd have to find the article but it was an eye opener.
I think the article was written when Toyota took over GM for first place.
This is rich. LMAO! OMFGMusic_Box said:Unions are always pro in my book, they are only contrary to greedy and exploiting companies.
I will have to agree with Daj on this one. Any trades (plumbing, electrical, framers, drywallers, carpenters etc) are generally highly skilled at what they do, work hard, and do tend to be better workers than menial labour/assembly types. I know on one site I was managing one worker was FTDing a lot and they got rid of him and replaced him asap.dajodo2 said:Bull fucking shit.
I am a union tradesman and the opposite is true.
We (unionized tradesmen/women) pride ourselves on maintaining a higher standard of quality craftsmanship compared to the non union sector.
All large scale commercial and industrial jobs that I work such as car plants, power generating stations and projects such as these are awarded to union contractors because we possess the skills for such major projects to be completed properly and safely.
Non union shops don't.
Another good thing about the trades is that they do have excellant apprenticeship programs to help youths get into it and learn from some of the best.
BTW: $60K for a skilled carpenter/plumber/framer isn't exorbinant. That's only about $28.00 an hour. Now if I was a plumber or framre and found out a garbageman was making the same money as I was, and didn't need 5 yrs of training, I'd be pissed.
It doesn't change the equation. The Industry Canada figures are by industry, so they include parts manufacturers in their stats.futurelegend said:You also have to consider that in those figures, they are looking at the cost of manufacturing a vehicle. Removed from that, is the fact that the company that is producing the parts for most of the auto manufacturers are also part of the CAW and the company producing the sheet medal for "raw materials" is part of the steel workers union. Inflated labour costs start from the bottom and work their way through.
TBoy, you don't have to re-invent the wheel here. The analysis has been done. It's 6%. I'm not getting creative. Your argument needs to shift.tboy said:Exactly.
Unless the system is totally automated then there are labour costs associated with every facet of every part or material used in the production chain.
Also, Bud, if you're going to include things like marketing costs in your argument then I should be allowed to include things like break rooms, a/c etc in labour costs.
Also, if you want to include items like marketing, like the associated costs associated with labour, those costs are amortized over a large production run of many items where labour costs are directly attached to each item. For eg: it cost man 1 x amount of time to do his part of item 1. In my biz that could add up to 100 hrs.
You're wrong about this. Large industry often uses unionized contractors because they are contractually obliged to do so. Public or extended public sector contracts are often awarded to unionized contractors either because of "fair wage" policies imposed upon them, contractual obligations, or political pressure.dajodo2 said:All large scale commercial and industrial jobs that I work such as car plants, power generating stations and projects such as these are awarded to union contractors because we possess the skills for such major projects to be completed properly and safely.
Trade unions who represent skilled trades have currently got a stranglehold on much of the manpower. That's always the case in boom times. Smaller (non-union) contractors usually can't hire sufficient manpower, as a result, to enable them to compete for large projects.
That's the reality.
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Sorry, I'm not re-inventing the wheel, I'm talking about direct personal experience.Bud Plug said:TBoy, you don't have to re-invent the wheel here. The analysis has been done. It's 6%. I'm not getting creative. Your argument needs to shift.
6% may apply to SOME manufacturing sectors but not all, not by a long shot. I will repeat: I have had some projects where the labour cost outweighs the material cost by 400% and with a gross profit of about 20% that's quite substantial. That's a far cry from 6%.
I find it interesting here that knowone ever blames management for anything
I guess they all must sit in their offices all day drinking coffee and make No decisions at all.
One of the major problems with the auto sector was that the big 3 contiuned to make big gas drinkers, (large cars and trucks) and when the gas price hit the highes those vichles hit rock bottom, therefore a lack of demand. I'll take my union benefits anyday over non union benefits.
24 sick days yearly
3 personal days
full dental/drugs no dect.
chiropractor ect
pension
I guess they all must sit in their offices all day drinking coffee and make No decisions at all.
One of the major problems with the auto sector was that the big 3 contiuned to make big gas drinkers, (large cars and trucks) and when the gas price hit the highes those vichles hit rock bottom, therefore a lack of demand. I'll take my union benefits anyday over non union benefits.
24 sick days yearly
3 personal days
full dental/drugs no dect.
chiropractor ect
pension
So, I guess you'd be ok with paying $20.00 a litre for fuel and $10.00 for a loaf of bread? That's what you'd pay if everyone was paid union rates......buckwheat1 said:I find it interesting here that knowone ever blames management for anything
I guess they all must sit in their offices all day drinking coffee and make No decisions at all.
One of the major problems with the auto sector was that the big 3 contiuned to make big gas drinkers, (large cars and trucks) and when the gas price hit the highes those vichles hit rock bottom, therefore a lack of demand. I'll take my union benefits anyday over non union benefits.
24 sick days yearly
3 personal days
full dental/drugs no dect.
chiropractor ect
pension
As for the types of vehicles being made: there was a mandate by the US government back in the 70's (or was it the early 80's?) that stated vehicles had to meet a minimum of 20 mpg so the big three complied. Only problem is they never updated that mandate to a better fuel economy so the big three didn't worry too much about it.
For that matter, the imports also make large fuel guzzlers as well, they just don't sell as well as NA vehicles due to their exorbitant cost.
I wonder how the CAW and it's members will feel if GM goes tits up and all their workers are on the street? Guess they can sleep well at night knowing they contributed to the demise.....
oh ya blame the CAW where's management in all this. I know a senior management person at GM he told me that wages and benefits are about 7-8% of the vehicles price so if we lowered the wages how much do you think the vehicle price would go down?
PS are you a sports fan?
PS are you a sports fan?
GM's biggest problem is its products, not its costs. People just don't want their unappealing, unreliable cars. They'll pay a premium to buy something better.buckwheat1 said:oh ya blame the CAW where's management in all this. I know a senior management person at GM he told me that wages and benefits are about 7-8% of the vehicles price so if we lowered the wages how much do you think the vehicle price would go down?
PS are you a sports fan?
North American manufacturers will soon only occupy the truck, commercial van, and muscle car niche markets.
Oh, the CAW are a problem. Their nonsense in the plants is a distraction from and a drag on the vital design and market research work that GM should be throwing much of its effort into. In particular, the CAW should just shut up about the answer to curing the NA industry being to raise import tariffs. Thanks, but no thanks to dooming us to inferior domestic products. However, they are not even a significant factor in GM's failure.
