Turkey Identifies 174 Israeli Soldiers Implicated in Mavis Marmara Massacre

[gryfin]

ICC Prosecuter Says Palestinians Can Pursue War Crimes Charges Without Statehood

Inexorably, Israel's war crimes will be brought before justice.


"NEW YORK—In the fierce debate over the Palestinian bid for UN membership, one unseen presence has cast a long shadow.

It’s that of Luis Moreno-Ocampo, the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court — the body Israel has long feared would take up Palestinian allegations of war crimes if its statehood bid is successful.

A few blocks away from the UN this week, the man at the centre of the controversy said if Palestine becomes a member state, or a lower-ranked non-member observer state, it could be eligible to pursue claims against Israel.

“If the General Assembly says they are an observer state, in accordance with the all-state formula, this should allow them . . . to be part of the International Criminal Court,” he told the Star.

Moreno-Ocampo has scrutinized the issue of the Palestinians’ claims for two years, since they filed a declaration giving jurisdiction to the court for acts committed on their territory. But there has not yet been a conclusion."


http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1061595

 

[groggy]

There is also a reasonable argument that they can start pressing charges now.

Since they've been allowed to submit a bid for membership at the UN, and one of the prerequisites for the bid is that you have to be a sovereign state, that alone is enough confirmation for them to be allowed to press charges.

Of course, since Fuji believes that Israel has never committed a crime he must not be worried at all, and must be happy that justice is available for more people. Eh, Fuji?

 

[rld]

you gentlemen are engaging in mutual mastabatory fantasies.

When do you say these prosecutions will start.

All you have is "could be, an argument for, big speech, Israeli spring..." while nothing happens on the ground, in courts, or diplomatically.

And, as usual neither one of you knows the first thing about international law...you are both as bad as Fuji in that regard.

Maybe superman will arrive next to rescue the palestinian people...

 

[gryfin]

you gentlemen are engaging in mutual mastabatory fantasies.

When do you say these prosecutions will start.

All you have is "could be, an argument for, big speech, Israeli spring..." while nothing happens on the ground, in courts, or diplomatically.

And, as usual neither one of you knows the first thing about international law...you are both as bad as Fuji in that regard.

Maybe superman will arrive next to rescue the palestinian people...

No, you are just engaging in denial. Something that Israel's supporters turn to more and more often.

 

[fuji]

The list of Israeli soldiers involved in the attempted murder of the soldiers onboard the Mavis Marmara have been identified.

I've corrected the error in your post. I'm not sure what the point of this is though: While it's true these guys faced danger on the job, that's part of being a soldier. I think they did a great job, but singling them out as heroes probably takes it too far--other soldiers, such as along the security fence, face a much greater and more dangerous terrorist threat on a regular basis. Isn't enough to say these guys simply did some good work? Do we have to identify them as heroes?

 

[fuji]

Of course, since Fuji believes that Israel has never committed a crime he must not be worried at all, and must be happy that justice is available for more people. Eh, Fuji?

Correct. You can froth at the mouth all you want, but for there to be a case against Israel at the ICC two things would have to be true beyond the jurisdiction question:

1. There would have to be a war crime, and

2. Israel would have to fail to investigate it

The only war crimes anybody has documented have been by rogue soldiers, and Israel itself has competently investigated them. This is the opinion of such people as Richard Goldstone, for example. The ICC has no jurisdiction over cases that are competently investigation by the host nation, per its charter.

My issue with the ICC is that it is susceptible to the same sort of co-opting, manipulation, and abuse as the UN HRC. Although at the moment it hasn't happened, the voting structure at the ICC is similar, and if it actually gained propaganda value, it could be overrun by the thugs of the world just as UN HRC has been. I think it's hard for you to dispute this point, given what has come to light in the "Arab spring", upon review of what sorts of nefarious governments actually have been running UN HRC. The ICC needs its constitution changed so that it cannot be dominated by abusive states. Voting rights in the ICC (and UN HRC as well) should depend on a nation having some evidence that it has a free and independent judiciary of its own, or some such.

 

[groggy]

Then you've got nothing to worry about and neither does Israel.
Wonder why they're making such a fuss about it then.....

 

[fuji]

Then you've got nothing to worry about and neither does Israel.
Wonder why they're making such a fuss about it then.....

I have only seen you making a fuss about it. By the way, a few months back you were going on and on and on about how Israel was going to be taken to the ICC by Turkey over the flotilla raid.

What happened?

 

[groggy]

I have only seen you making a fuss about it. By the way, a few months back you were going on and on and on about how Israel was going to be taken to the ICC by Turkey over the flotilla raid.

What happened?

Its happening, what you expect it to be instantaneous?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14777558

 

[gryfin]

I've corrected the error in your post. I'm not sure what the point of this is though: While it's true these guys faced danger on the job, that's part of being a soldier. I think they did a great job, but singling them out as heroes probably takes it too far--other soldiers, such as along the security fence, face a much greater and more dangerous terrorist threat on a regular basis. Isn't enough to say these guys simply did some good work? Do we have to identify them as heroes?

Sure, Ernst Zundel/Fuji. There were also many Nazi supporters who also thought that German soldiers who murdered were heroes. Count yourself among them that illustrious class of people.

 

[rld]

No, you are just engaging in denial. Something that Israel's supporters turn to more and more often.

Tell me where you get your knowledge of international law from and when the charges will be proferred.

Have the courage to say something concrete rather that sling empty slogans.

And I should tell you, I am not what one would call as Israel supporter. I just happen to live in the real world.

 

[fuji]

Its happening, what you expect it to be instantaneous?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14777558

You do know the difference between the ICC and the ICJ, don't you?

Actually no you probably don't. You probably are stupid enough to think that article was about the ICC.

The ICC case simply vanished from the radar because it was always bullshit.

 

[fuji]

Sure, Ernst Zundel/Fuji. There were also many Nazi supporters who also thought that German soldiers who murdered were heroes. Count yourself among them that illustrious class of people.

I see as usual you have nothing but hate to go on. The UN report concluded that the blockade was proper and legal. So sad for you. Your imaginary hate based version of the world is increasingly disconnected from reality.

 

[gryfin]

Tell me where you get your knowledge of international law from and when the charges will be proferred.

Have the courage to say something concrete rather that sling empty slogans.

And I should tell you, I am not what one would call as Israel supporter. I just happen to live in the real world.

I seem to remember you offering to produce something yourself but we haven't seen anything. Are you just a blowhard?

 

[gryfin]

I see as usual you have nothing but hate to go on. The UN report concluded that the blockade was proper and legal. So sad for you. Your imaginary hate based version of the world is increasingly disconnected from reality.

Sorry, you can't rely on the Palmer/Uribe Report. You've told everyone on here many times over that a report that was not voted on by the Security Council has no value. So, back to the drawing board Ernst.

 

[rld]

I seem to remember you offering to produce something yourself but we haven't seen anything. Are you just a blowhard?

Now I am lawyer who has studied international law and from time to time have to give opinions on it. have been busy this morning so you have not gotten the texts I mentioned, but will you apologize and STFU when you are proven wrong?

I also notice you were two scared to answer either of my questions.

Your posts show you don't understand international law, and you never say anything concrete.

Just a mudslide of slogans and name calling. Well done.

 

[rld]

Sorry, you can't rely on the Palmer/Uribe Report. You've told everyone on here many times over that a report that was not voted on by the Security Council has no value. So, back to the drawing board Ernst.

So your standard is...you get to babble on about charges that "might" be proffered and misunderstand the fundamentals of international law, but criticize the findings of a report because of who didn't vote on it.

You are nuts.

 

[gryfin]

So your standard is...you get to babble on about charges that "might" be proffered and misunderstand the fundamentals of international law, but criticize the findings of a report because of who didn't vote on it.

You are nuts.

Direct your remarks to Ernst Zundel/Fuji - this is his stated position.

 

[gryfin]

Now I am lawyer who has studied international law and from time to time have to give opinions on it. have been busy this morning so you have not gotten the texts I mentioned, but will you apologize and STFU when you are proven wrong?

I also notice you were two scared to answer either of my questions.

Your posts show you don't understand international law, and you never say anything concrete.

Just a mudslide of slogans and name calling. Well done.

Oh, what a sweet hissy fit. Stop making excuses and get the material you keep talking about.

 

[rld]

Direct your remarks to Ernst Zundel/Fuji - this is his stated position.

I have no doubt that Fuji also spouts BS about international law, but I have him on ignore.