TTC Subway Development

[james t kirk]

and it's still going strong. Imagine if it was built with today's technology? It'd probably last another 100 yrs easily........using an example of something built 40 yrs ago as a reason to not doing it now is asinine. If that were the case in other examples you'd be living without: cellphones, cordless drills, cars, trucks, anything made with titanium, etc etc etc

But would it be better to have all those cars that travel on the gardiner on lakeshore and queen st? It'd be (more of) a nightmare getting into and out of the city......

Uh, trust me, I've forgotten more about the Gardiner than you'll ever know.

While I agree with the need, and would oppose tearing the Gardiner down because it would cause traffic chaos, the fact remains that it's a pig and an eyesore. The only way I'd ever want it torn down was if the City put it in a tunnel (which isn't going to happen any time soon.)

I'd be very curious to know exactly what technology you are referring to today that is so superior to 50 years ago though?

The problem with the Gardiner, like any other trasnportation structure, is that it is made of reinforced concrete. The chlorides from road salt penetrate the concrete and initiate corrosion in the reinforcing steel which causes the concrete to delaminate and spall. This then makes the problem even worse as now you begin to expose the rebar to the elements and the road salt.

This is the exact same problem we face today.

In some ways the Gardiner is suprerior to what we build today because they used steel girders in its construction. Today, we would use CPCA Girders (Precast Concrete) which are truly garbage. At least with steel, you can repair it when you get a crack or a hole. Not true with concrete girders. Once they start to fail, they're done. We use concrete girders today simply because they are CHEAP. Plain and simple. But don't expect to get more than 40 years out of them. Some in fact - 25 years and done.

The concrete today is arguably WORSE than it was back when the Gardiner was built. They try to come up with all these "High Performance Concretes" containing silica fume and the like, but all they do is crack.

The only problem the Gardiner's design had that I am aware of was too many expansion joints and low cover on the reinforcing steel. That's about it.

For a while, the City used Epoxy coated rebar (a la MTO) however, it was found that the epoxy coated rebar could actually be worse than black bars because if the epoxy coating gets knicked, you get localized corrosion and pitting in the rebar which is worse. As a result, the City will only specify black bars, or stainless rebar on their jobs now. Gerideau Ameristeel has their "Z-bar" which is essentially galvanized with an epoxy coating, however, it's expensive. Then there's stainless steel rebar, however, it's 6 times the cost of black reinforcing steel. They are trying out polymere rebar, however, you can't bend it like you can rebar.

So much for the brave new world of concrete technology.

 

[james t kirk]

The mini rail at the zoo was a smashing success.

Key word smashing...

 

[landscaper]

If you're referring to Chicago's EL it's been running for what, 50 yrs and was built with 1949 technology. The one in Florida has been running for 40 yrs without falling down.

Again, I say: a system that is operational now, when you need it, is far far far better than not having one at all......so subways are better. They cost 1.4 times as much and since no one can afford one, we don't get one OR we get surface LRTs like st clair that totally fuck up the street, the businesses ON the street, and any traffic that has to move along the street....yeah, that's the ticket!

A great example is the elevated system they put into pearson. That thing is a DREAM: quiet, energy efficient, and it went up in no time. If el's are so bad I highly doubt a private enterprise would buy one....

The thing is: people (especially torontonians) are SO wrapped up in the way things are that they can't look forward. Same goes for windmills. Oh they are SO ugly, I personally thing they are kinetic scultures and as for elevated transit lines, it's funny how if you ever see a designer's depiction of the future, all the images show elevated transportation systems....funny how that is.......

THe system at pearson is not usable for any real distance it is a cable car system and you have to run and maintain the cables( San fransico not withstanding)

Subways are hidiously expensive right now the region of york is trying to finish a sewer system using a TBM the thing is stuck several hundred feet down under Leslie street. The new tunnel at the falls for teh extension to the hydro electric system is 2 years behind and 100% over budget. I pointr these out only to illistrate the problems with tunneling. A serface route is much less expensive although as in the case of St Clair ave disruptive . The choices do need to be made and all I can say is I am glad I don't live on any of the predicted routes
3

 

[tboy]

And let's not forget the big dig in boston....how many years and billions was THAT over budget and late?

James T: sure, you sound like you know what you're talking about and while I agree, somethings haven't progressed as others but you also have to admit, that we've come a long way in the surface coatings that will protect concrete from extensive damage that is plaguing the gardiner. I remember discussions when they were tearing down the eastern extension that had they built it today, it would have lasted much longer and be less costly to maintain.

But hey, let's wait for a subway to be put in...just don't hold your breath.

 

[EntertainmentMan2000]

No surprise that after all of these years we are still in the same predicament.

 

[contact]

what a joke Toronto subway

here is a real subway system

http://www.orangesmile.com/destinations/img/berlin-map-metro-big.gif

 

[xix]

Subway system or city transport system inside Canada sucks. I think Vancouver is better than TO, for downtown to Airport transport by bus.
Orlando when I was there was excellent. But the rest is awful

Almost compatible to a third world country.

Asia and Europe are supreme. I remember Belgium, 3 subways lines, Munich 2 subway lines double decker plus city and greyhound buses taking you there.

I really thought Gov't and Airport TO would have left some space to build a rail line into the airport. But no.

 

[TeeJay]

@xix they do have a rail right to the airport (UPI) for a while now


There is not much point in building more trains since GO covers everywhere
Biggest issue is majority of stations have no parking spaces (I mean what genius planned that out...)

 

[xix]

@xix they do have a rail right to the airport (UPI) for a while now


There is not much point in building more trains since GO covers everywhere
Biggest issue is majority of stations have no parking spaces (I mean what genius planned that out...)

I agree about UPI. But that was a joke originally with the price. I think there should be a bus or train between Long branch to Kipling then Airport.

There is parking in the west corridor of the Trains, west of Long Branch. Except they almost destroyed Aldershot. Some developer donated a lot of money to building house instead of the multi level parking that is required there that was original plan. Mainly in the winter it is useful.

Also Mimico they took the space set for parking, for a condo that went bankrupt.

 

[explorerzip]

Interesting revisiting an old thread. We're definitely way behind many cities, but we did manage to build the UP Express, subway extension to Vaughan, replaced the streetcars and the Crosstown is underway. There's still a lot of work to be done though. But the last year has proved that big transit projects especially subways might not be as important as we once thought for typical office worker. If you're working from home then you could technically work from anywhere and no longer need access to transit.

 

[explorerzip]

I think there should be a bus or train between Long branch to Kipling then Airport.

There's actually a spur line that I think is owned by CN that runs North / South between the Lakeshore West and Milton Go lines. Go had to use that line for 1 or 2 weekends a few years ago because there was construction on one of the bridges on the Lakeshore line. It's just not practical to join the Lakeshore and Milton lines. Go would have to lease or purchase that spur line and also build another platform near the south Kipling station parking lot, which has no room. There's also no place to turn the train around.

There is already a TTC bus that travels from Kipling to Long Branch via Sherway Gardens mall, but it takes a very long time. I don't think there's any real reason to have a direct bus link between Long Branch and Kipling. There's already GO station at Kipling and a bus that goes to the airport. If you really needed to get to the airport from the Long Brach area you're better off with a taxi.

 

[curr3n_c1000]

12 years later and we still ain't there yet. What a shitshow.

If this was china, some one would be in jail for this.

 

[bigdickdean]

12 years later and we still ain't there yet. What a shitshow.

If this was china, some one would be in jail for this.
[/QUOTE

In March 2012, I was in Nanning, China, on my way to Vietnam while on an around the world trip. They had just begun construction of a new subway system. Since then, they have opened 108 km of subway with 84 stations with more to come. Meanwhile we have all these drawings of John Tory's Smart Track and Doug Ford's revised Downtown Relief Line. We will be waiting forever for them to be built.

 

[TeeJay]

I agree about UPI. But that was a joke originally with the price. I think there should be a bus or train between Long branch to Kipling then Airport.

There is parking in the west corridor of the Trains, west of Long Branch. Except they almost destroyed Aldershot. Some developer donated a lot of money to building house instead of the multi level parking that is required there that was original plan. Mainly in the winter it is useful.

Also Mimico they took the space set for parking, for a condo that went bankrupt.

Nonsense... I am from the west and trust me it is a fucking disaster to try and take GO on a daily commute

Parking lots rapidly fill up and as they do the crux of cars heads east to each station flooding their parking until there is nowhere to park and you might as well drive to TO
Many even resort to parking illegally or taking reserved spaces since no other options

I can not speak of the east end, but west is a fucking disaster and north is also really bad



UPI costs $9.25 for a one way fare from Union to Pearson
It's not that expensive (GO is $7.32 for same distance, TTC costs $3.25 but is like a 2 hour ordeal lol and I am pretty sure charges extra fare)

 

[curr3n_c1000]

In March 2012, I was in Nanning, China, on my way to Vietnam while on an around the world trip. They had just begun construction of a new subway system. Since then, they have opened 108 km of subway with 84 stations with more to come. Meanwhile we have all these drawings of John Tory's Smart Track and Doug Ford's revised Downtown Relief Line. We will be waiting forever for them to be built.

China is in another galaxy compared to us. They have the latest high-speed train system in place. We have a system based on late 1800's designs.

 

[explorerzip]

Nonsense... I am from the west and trust me it is a fucking disaster to try and take GO on a daily commute

Parking lots rapidly fill up and as they do the crux of cars heads east to each station flooding their parking until there is nowhere to park and you might as well drive to TO
Many even resort to parking illegally or taking reserved spaces since no other options

I can not speak of the east end, but west is a fucking disaster and north is also really bad



UPI costs $9.25 for a one way fare from Union to Pearson
It's not that expensive (GO is $7.32 for same distance, TTC costs $3.25 but is like a 2 hour ordeal lol and I am pretty sure charges extra fare)

I hear you man. I used to park at Dixie station and it's decent in the morning, but an utter nightmare in the evening. I've spent up to half an hour just waiting to get out of the lot. Tons of people leaving the train at the same time and bolting to their cars to get to the front of the car line. What makes it worse is that some genius at city hall decided to connect the Go parking lot to a Wal-mart and Costco next door.

 

[roadhog]

There's actually a spur line that I think is owned by CN that runs North / South between the Lakeshore West and Milton Go lines.

CANPA Subdivision, owned by CP. Its primarily an "interchange" area used by both to swap out carloads that one or the other can't deliver because the end customer isn't located on a line owned by them or a U.S. affiliate. The new Bombardier cars for the Crosstown are picked up in Kingston by CN, dropped here, picked up by CP to get the "guts" put in at the Thunder Bay plant, and then CP brings them back down for delivery to the Mount Dennis Maintenance Facility.

CANPA SUBDIVISION BACKGROUND - RGB

GO Transit (unofficial) website on motive power, cab cars, commuter cars, history, background and operations.

www.trainweb.org

 

[xix]

Nonsense... I am from the west and trust me it is a fucking disaster to try and take GO on a daily commute

Parking lots rapidly fill up and as they do the crux of cars heads east to each station flooding their parking until there is nowhere to park and you might as well drive to TO
Many even resort to parking illegally or taking reserved spaces since no other options

I can not speak of the east end, but west is a fucking disaster and north is also really bad

UPI costs $9.25 for a one way fare from Union to Pearson
It's not that expensive (GO is $7.32 for same distance, TTC costs $3.25 but is like a 2 hour ordeal lol and I am pretty sure charges extra fare)

I am from the west also. I heard stories from people who travel that line. Aldershot is worse when it snows and I seen cars on the lawn. That multi level parking got hijacked by a developer. I think it was the liberals.
UPI cost that now, but during the PanAm games it was $30 or $50 a head when it opened.

Each station on the west route need double multi parking buildings on both sides of the tracks. IF they want their money back charge me a $1.00 dollar.

 

[EntertainmentMan2000]

Union to Pearson Express is meh.