Got a single envelope from the MTO and it had lic renewals for all 3 or 4 of my vehicles (4th has a 2 year) AND my drivers lic renewal.. so I am pretty satisfied with the package they sent me. I normally do 1 year renewals just so I don't forget... it's my happy birthday cheque writing present.
Traffic Court trial: Driving with no/expired driver's licence
- Thread starter The Finisher
- Start date
All the "holier than thou" types should know that there is "fat" built into the system.
That is, that cops and prosecutors and policymakers know a lot of people will try to plead stuff down so they up-charge and up-fine and add administrative charges onto tickets you challenge so that the system works just fine including all of the plea deals.
Goodness, all these posts to get the fine reduced for an offence the OP admits to, but thinks should be excused. That would be 'Guilty with an Explanation'. Which would require that someone must show up somewhere to offer the explanation and have it evaluated. That would be a Court.
The desireability of getting the fine reduced is understandable. Let's hope the Justice sees the oversight as excusable and does so, but the insurance consequences are beyond any power they have. Only not being convicted at all—that'd be a Not Guilty plea and verdict—gets one beyond their notice. That's a bit of a stretch considering the OP was driving and the license was expired.
Is not the real problem the insurance premium hike? Although they could try on the tenuous argument that forgetting/not properly reading his mail suggests the OP might forget to read a sign or his speedo or misread them, it seems really punitive for your insurer to rank you more dangerous for a mere paperwork slip up. One of their competitors would likely say, "Hey, no real risk here; welcome to our customer base!". What did yours say when you asked, Finisher?
The desireability of getting the fine reduced is understandable. Let's hope the Justice sees the oversight as excusable and does so, but the insurance consequences are beyond any power they have. Only not being convicted at all—that'd be a Not Guilty plea and verdict—gets one beyond their notice. That's a bit of a stretch considering the OP was driving and the license was expired.
Is not the real problem the insurance premium hike? Although they could try on the tenuous argument that forgetting/not properly reading his mail suggests the OP might forget to read a sign or his speedo or misread them, it seems really punitive for your insurer to rank you more dangerous for a mere paperwork slip up. One of their competitors would likely say, "Hey, no real risk here; welcome to our customer base!". What did yours say when you asked, Finisher?
LOL
Finisher, I had a similar charge: driving a vehicle with an expired tag. Same deal as you - I forgot and got nabbed a month or 2 later. I got a ticket (not a summons) and the advise that a JP would probably drop the charges if I went to court. I didn't wait for a court date or a summons. I got my plate renewed and took my ticket to court. I believe it was a crown attorney I saw after waiting for 15 or 20 minutes. She didn't even want an explanation. I showed her my renewal. She dismissed the charge. No fine. No points. No conviction. No court costs. No police officers on time and a half.
Good luck.
As my traffic ticket offense was still being processed for a trial date, I was shopping around and when the insurance companies asked whether I had any tickets, I answered 'no' as my ticket was a charge and not a final verdict. I found a broker who got a good deal for me.
There's no point in revealing your cards if the insurance companies don't reveal how they grade you for your premiums?
Suffice to say, as others have noted, an expired driver's licence does not give you demerit points but the fine is astronomical!
Gosh, I hope the gov't doesn't levy fines for an expired Health card? Seriously, there's some major coin to milk from the public!
Dalton....if you're reading this.........* hint, hint.
I guess when they levied the fines they were looking to punish serious violators
(drunks, suspended, repeat offenders, major car accidents).
The likelihood of I going from a law abiding driver to become a reckless driver due to an expired driver's licence is comically absurd.
Forget Poland.....I'm aiming to invade Markham where all the SPs are hanging out.
Now, when I go to meet women and I know they want a badass guy, I'll tell them.....'yeah, I'm bad....so bad that I drive around in the city with an expired driver's licence!....How's that for living life on the edge??"
The Finisher
3 years ago i ran a stop sign and crashed into a taxi, my car was totalled the taxi just got dented. I had alot going on in my life at the time, and was driving with expired license, no insurance. The no insurance fine alone was 5000 bucks, i plead guilty and threw myself at the mercy of the court and they reduced the fine down to 2000 dollars. As for insurance i got a quote before i plead guilty so my abstract was clean. Ive renewed my insurance 3 times since then and it hasnt gone up yet. Never again will i let my license and or insurance lapse, its just not worth it.
I believe the rationale—check with your local Con/Harperite—for severe legal consequences, is the unsubstantiated belief that they magically reduce the number of offences.
You are proof that it does not, having recklessly risked exorbitant fines and now prepared to squander your time, rather than simply read the letter your tax-bucks and mine generated and mailed to save you all this trouble.
The guys who wound up selling reefers instead of real estate may also have been too distracted to do the right thing when it counted. They could and likely did plead the same, "…aw that's too hard for a first offence I'll never repeat. Promise."
It's worth thinking about, just what that question means: Are you guilty, or not guilty? If the guy isn't feeling any guilt, how can we believe this was 'just a slip'?
Only you can answer. Good luck.
Excellent. That's how the system is supposed to work.
If you've been driving with a clean slate for so long, then there is no reason for them to throw the book at you for something as trivial as a renewal.
He should admit he's guilty (he didn't renew when the law says he needs to renew) but argue that it was an honest mistake. They will look at his driving record and see that he's never had problems in the past 20 years on the road. His fine will be reduced. End of story. This isn't a complicated matter.
Assuming that (a) you did renew your license promptly after you received the notice of infraction, and (b) you had a clean driving record for several years before (and nothing else since), and that as you say, the failure to renew was inadvertent (and not intentional, or forced upon you by, say, a suspension),
then call the prosecutor's office, cite these facts (e.g. "I have a clean driving record, and inadvertently forgot to renew my DL. Two months after it expired, I was cited for driving with an expired license, after which I promptly renewed my license and now, having received a summons for the citation, I would like to know what options you can offer to a lesser fine.") And see what they have to say.
then call the prosecutor's office, cite these facts (e.g. "I have a clean driving record, and inadvertently forgot to renew my DL. Two months after it expired, I was cited for driving with an expired license, after which I promptly renewed my license and now, having received a summons for the citation, I would like to know what options you can offer to a lesser fine.") And see what they have to say.
Went to court this morning.
I talked to the prosecutor and she looked at the summons and looked at my driver's licence renewal which was renewed immediately the next day.
She nodded her head and said she would reduce the fine.
The prosecutor actually asked for my birth date and asked how quickly I renewed my licence after being given the ticket.
I definitely believe that my quick action helped her determine that my expired licence was unintentional.
When I came up before his 'worship', the prosecutor advised the court that she was requesting the charge be 'withdrawn' and I was relieved. Haha
Things I noticed in court:
- Almost 80% of the charges were for speeding. Most speeding tickets were about 22 to 23 km/per hour over the speed limit. The prosecutor would reduce it down to 15 km/hr and the fine was usually $60 dollars and no demerit points.
- Justice of the Peace (JP) reduced most of the $60 speeding tickets to $45 dollars and people were given either the minimum of 14 days to a maximum of 120 days to pay (for financial hardship).
- If you did not speak english and required an interpreter that was not readily available, for a $60 speeding ticket the prosecutor withdrew the charge.
- 90% of the speeders were immigrants. Damn them for breaking the law!
In summary, my simple administrative forgetfulness was not viewed by the court as an act of civil disobedience.
I was polite and respectful throughout the 1-minute process for the prosecutor to call me out and withdrew the charge.
Thanks for everyone for their support and I'm sorry to disappoint the hardliners for not immediately anteing up the $325 dollars to the City of Toronto and TPS's slush fund!!
In traffic court they know when it's right to levy a reasonable fine and what's considered an unnecessary tax grab!
The Finisher
I talked to the prosecutor and she looked at the summons and looked at my driver's licence renewal which was renewed immediately the next day.
She nodded her head and said she would reduce the fine.
The prosecutor actually asked for my birth date and asked how quickly I renewed my licence after being given the ticket.
I definitely believe that my quick action helped her determine that my expired licence was unintentional.
When I came up before his 'worship', the prosecutor advised the court that she was requesting the charge be 'withdrawn' and I was relieved. Haha
Things I noticed in court:
- Almost 80% of the charges were for speeding. Most speeding tickets were about 22 to 23 km/per hour over the speed limit. The prosecutor would reduce it down to 15 km/hr and the fine was usually $60 dollars and no demerit points.
- Justice of the Peace (JP) reduced most of the $60 speeding tickets to $45 dollars and people were given either the minimum of 14 days to a maximum of 120 days to pay (for financial hardship).
- If you did not speak english and required an interpreter that was not readily available, for a $60 speeding ticket the prosecutor withdrew the charge.
- 90% of the speeders were immigrants. Damn them for breaking the law!
In summary, my simple administrative forgetfulness was not viewed by the court as an act of civil disobedience.
I was polite and respectful throughout the 1-minute process for the prosecutor to call me out and withdrew the charge.
Thanks for everyone for their support and I'm sorry to disappoint the hardliners for not immediately anteing up the $325 dollars to the City of Toronto and TPS's slush fund!!
In traffic court they know when it's right to levy a reasonable fine and what's considered an unnecessary tax grab!
The Finisher
You were knowingly wrong...admit it now, you just wanted to see if you could get away with it for a year for free.
Whatever..........20 years of driving with never missing a renewal and ALL OF A SUDDEN I'm trying to get away with driving with an expired driver's licence???
Yes, if that's the case.....call me whatever you want.
Remember.....you point at me......3 fingers are pointing right back at you!
Peace.
I'm pretty harsh on lawbreakers, but I see nothing in your situation which leads me to believe it was anything more than an administrative oversight on your part.
Let it be your warning to get yourself a bit better organized for the future. Glad the system dealt with your case expeditiously!
Let it be your warning to get yourself a bit better organized for the future. Glad the system dealt with your case expeditiously!
I am glad it worked out. It was the proper outcome in this case. So many dumb ass administrative tasks are thrust upon us. This year I gotta e test 3 cars, renew 3 stickers and a DL, that is at least 1/2 day of running around. Glad you ignored the dickheads that said to pay up. Our society has little to do with right and wrong. Only what you can get away with. Sadly this is what it has come to. The cops are a fine example of this.Went to court this morning.
I talked to the prosecutor and she looked at the summons and looked at my driver's licence renewal which was renewed immediately the next day.
She nodded her head and said she would reduce the fine.
The prosecutor actually asked for my birth date and asked how quickly I renewed my licence after being given the ticket.
I definitely believe that my quick action helped her determine that my expired licence was unintentional.
When I came up before his 'worship', the prosecutor advised the court that she was requesting the charge be 'withdrawn' and I was relieved. Haha
Things I noticed in court:
- Almost 80% of the charges were for speeding. Most speeding tickets were about 22 to 23 km/per hour over the speed limit. The prosecutor would reduce it down to 15 km/hr and the fine was usually $60 dollars and no demerit points.
- Justice of the Peace (JP) reduced most of the $60 speeding tickets to $45 dollars and people were given either the minimum of 14 days to a maximum of 120 days to pay (for financial hardship).
- If you did not speak english and required an interpreter that was not readily available, for a $60 speeding ticket the prosecutor withdrew the charge.
- 90% of the speeders were immigrants. Damn them for breaking the law!
In summary, my simple administrative forgetfulness was not viewed by the court as an act of civil disobedience.
I was polite and respectful throughout the 1-minute process for the prosecutor to call me out and withdrew the charge.
Thanks for everyone for their support and I'm sorry to disappoint the hardliners for not immediately anteing up the $325 dollars to the City of Toronto and TPS's slush fund!!
In traffic court they know when it's right to levy a reasonable fine and what's considered an unnecessary tax grab!
The Finisher
I'd be more upset if he was driving without insurance. My cousin used to drive without insurance and it always pissed me off as he was a very aggressive driver. He finally got caught...and the judge let him off with a small fine! Seriously. He still has no insurance.
Glad you got off as you did, by admitting, and explaining your 'crime'. You may look at fining offenders for their sins—of omission or commission—as "…an unnecessary tax grab", but I think you're going too far to imagine the Court does.
I suspect their view is that, by foregoing punishment for an offence committed by inadvertant error and speedily rectified, they were doing justice.
So, assuming he doesn't want to pay a big retainer to the late great Johnnie Cochran just to beat a $325 ticket, what happens when he comes back in two weeks without a lawyer?
Might be simpler to turn State's Evidence, work undercover for the vice squad until he's finished paying his debt to society
Would that count as community service?I'm thinking these were probably the 2 biggest reasons the prosecutor did you the favour.
