Reverie
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Tosca fired! - where's the real problem

healer677

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Jan 13, 2004
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I know in sports it is always customary to can the coach if the team is doing poorly-

Carlos Tosca got fired after the Jays took an ass waxing from the Yankees. They're 17 games below .500.

The question is....is it the coach's fault? the GM? Why does the hammer always fall on the coach's head?

Did Tosca deserve this?
 

jwmorrice

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Jun 30, 2003
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It's too bad. Tosca seems like an okay guy. However, something had to be done to shake up the team. How better to alter team chemistry in the short term?

jwm
 

Leaffan1976

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Well the Jay's arent going to be in 3rd behind Boston this season looks like. Looks like J.P. thought it is easier to fire Tosca then moving Delgado out of Toronto. Hopefully with the interim manager the Jays can at least get closer to .500 or even finish the season on a winning note. It will be interesting to see who will manage the club next year!
 

jwmorrice

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Jun 30, 2003
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Leaffan1976 said:
Well the Jay's arent going to be in 3rd behind Boston this season looks like. Looks like J.P. thought it is easier to fire Tosca then moving Delgado out of Toronto. Hopefully with the interim manager the Jays can at least get closer to .500 or even finish the season on a winning note. It will be interesting to see who will manage the club next year!
Delgado has a 'no trade' clause in his contract. Unfortunately, he wouldn't allow himself to be moved.

jwm
 

jwmorrice

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Jun 30, 2003
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From today's Globe and Mail website:

" Tosca's handling of pitchers, particularly the bullpen, had long been considered one of his weak points. Some previous relievers privately complained that Tosca's lack of trust in them helped erode their confidence.

Others slammed his reliance on statistics to determine matchups and his insistence on matching lefty-versus-lefty and righty-versus-righty on the mound, regardless of the situation or recent performance."

jwm
 

akizagor

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Aug 2, 2004
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jwmorrice said:
From today's Globe and Mail website:
Others slammed his reliance on statistics to determine matchups and his insistence on matching lefty-versus-lefty and righty-versus-righty on the mound, regardless of the situation or recent performance."
But that reliance on statistics is precisely the way Richardi operates.

But the article was right about his handling of the bullpen.
 

shinjitsu

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Jul 7, 2002
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You field the following lineup and try to be the Yankees ...

C - Zaun
1B - Gomez
2B - Berg
SS - Woodward
3B - Howie Clark
LF - Simon Pond
CF - Johnson
RF - Rios
DH - Phelps

... I know ... the lineup probably never took the field but a card similar was out there, regardless of changing one or two players. MLB would have called the Jays in spring training to warn them for not putting enough major leaguers in the game.
 

Ranger68

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Mar 17, 2003
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Well, to be fair, that's not the best lineup the Jays could field.

In any case, Tosca takes the fall for a terribly subpar performance with practically everyone now healthy.

That's baseball.

If Ricciardi doesn't show results by the end of his five-year plan, he'll be the next to go.
 

The Bandit

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Feb 16, 2002
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Trading Phelps will backfire on Ricciardi, Cleveland will play him and he'll be a star(like Gibbons in Baltimore). Just like the Leafs, they don't give their young players enough opportunity...
 

Speedo

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Oct 30, 2002
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I think trading Phelps when his market value was so low might turn out to be a mistake. But I'll cut Ricciardi a bit of slack -- I want to see what he does after a year like this. If they're just as bad after the '05 season, then I'd be in favour if having JP discharged...
 

the_big_E

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Yeah they shouldnt have traded Phelps just yet...sure he cant hit righties but give him time. And if Delgado comes back, it better be less than half of what he made this past season.

Here are his numbers since he signed the fatty contract:

2001: .279, .408 OBP, .540 SLP, 39 HR, 102 RBI
2002: .276, .406 OBP, .549 SLP, 33 HR, 108 RBI
2003: .302, .426 OBP, .593 SLP, 42 HR, 145 RBI
2004: .223, .327 OBP, .450 SLP, 17 HR, 51 RBI in 77 games.

Except 2003, those numbers arent really that amazing. I wish they traded him instead of letting him walk away for free which could very well happen, which could be best for both sides.

And its something I'll never understand in all of pro sports, why the coach always takes the brunt of the blame with the resulting firing. The finger has to be pointed at someone I suppose.
 

shack

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Oct 2, 2001
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the_big_E said:
Yeah they shouldnt have traded Phelps just yet...sure he cant hit righties but give him time. And if Delgado comes back, it better be less than half of what he made this past season.

Here are his numbers since he signed the fatty contract:

2001: .279, .408 OBP, .540 SLP, 39 HR, 102 RBI
2002: .276, .406 OBP, .549 SLP, 33 HR, 108 RBI
2003: .302, .426 OBP, .593 SLP, 42 HR, 145 RBI
2004: .223, .327 OBP, .450 SLP, 17 HR, 51 RBI in 77 games.

Except 2003, those numbers arent really that amazing. I wish they traded him instead of letting him walk away for free which could very well happen, which could be best for both sides.

And its something I'll never understand in all of pro sports, why the coach always takes the brunt of the blame with the resulting firing. The finger has to be pointed at someone I suppose.
Phelps had his chance during the 50something games that Delgado missed. A good player, a clutch player will perform and rise to the occasion when he gets his chance. Phelps didn't do that. He'd be the Nik Antropov of the Jays.

Delgado's stats show that he's guaranteed 30+ homers and at least 100 RBI's each year, except for the years he does better. His 51 RBI's in 77 games works out to 107 for 162 games. Not shabby. How do you intend for Delgado to come back for 1/2 his current price? And they're not "letting" him walk away. He wouldn't allow them to trade him. What options do they have?

Do you want to know the real reason the Jays did so bad this year? It was the bad karma created by the major changes to the uniform i.e. the color changes, the crappy new logo and dropping the word blue from their name.
 

Leaffan1976

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jwmorrice said:
Delgado has a 'no trade' clause in his contract. Unfortunately, he wouldn't allow himself to be moved.

jwm
yes i forgot about the no trade clause. but if there wasnt one im sure we would be without delgado and tosco today.

Who do u guys think should be the bench boss next season for Toronto?
 

shack

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Leaffan1976 said:
Who do u guys think should be the bench boss next season for Toronto?
Ted Nolan's still available.

Seriously, that's a tough question. There are dozens of guys right now and more will be available by the end of the season.

Give us a list of worthy candidates.
 

kwong_1978

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Jan 2, 2003
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Two years in a roll our BJ had a terrible start. What is the point of spring training? To prepare the team for the season. Tosca should've got the axe after April. I seem to remember Tosca predicting a 95 win season. We be lucky to finish with 75.

Phelps-this might haunt us. Keep in mind, he led the team in RBIs before he was shipped out-This is a guy who's still very young in major league experience.

shack said:
Give us a list of worthy candidates.
Hard to predict what JP have in mind. Probably someone we never heard.
My list:
1) Bob Brenly
2) Jim Fergosi
3) Jimy Williams (lol)
4) Grady Little (very possible)
5) Cito Gaston (not)
 

Ranger68

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The Bandit said:
Trading Phelps will backfire on Ricciardi, Cleveland will play him and he'll be a star(like Gibbons in Baltimore). Just like the Leafs, they don't give their young players enough opportunity...
? The Jays give their young guys plenty of time to develop - they're one of the best developmental systems in baseball. I'm willing to give Ricciardi some credit and see how this one turns out.
 

Ranger68

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the_big_E said:
And its something I'll never understand in all of pro sports, why the coach always takes the brunt of the blame with the resulting firing. The finger has to be pointed at someone I suppose.
I think you answered your own question there. ;)
 

Speedo

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shack said:
Phelps had his chance during the 50something games that Delgado missed.
Not really. The Jays didn't make him the everyday first baseman when Delgado was out. Playing him here and there is not really "giving him a chance." Don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying the trade was a mistake, because only time will tell. But if they were hell-bent on dealing him, they should have done it when his market value was higher.
 

SaveFerris

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Tosca acted like an amateur earlier this season when he suddenly annointed Terry Adams as the closer, based on Adams having thrown all of about 5 scoreless innings in a row. VERY PREMATURE, considering that Adams had been a closer only once - for half a season a few years ago - and he was just "okay". So of course once you put your foot in your mouth, the inevitable happened and Adams stunk almost from the get-go. Lightenberg has struggled to get lefty hitters out all his career, yet Tosca would use this guy like a set-up man - in the 8th inning when the other team will pinch-hit with all of their lefty hitters on the bench. Even Frasor was thrown into the closer fire way too quick, but that one worked out, mainly because the youngster seems to be one of those special players that comes through....(NOTE TO PREVIOUS POSTERS RE JOSH PHELPS: Frasor came through unlike Phelps...yes, Phelps may "wake up" and begin fulfilling his potential, but let's keep in mind that ALL rookies called up by major league teams have the potential to be stars...the trick is that some make it, and some don't...GM's need to make the judgement call eventually when a guy continues to underperform).

Bottom line is, Tosca managed "afraid" all year...but I don;t blame him for that, I blame Ricciardi. Let me explain: First, I think the jury is out on Ricciardi - we need to give him 2 more season.

But, I question Ricciardi's assessment of this year's Jays team - don;t tell me this group was capable of threatening for the wild card. Quite a few Jays hitters had career seasons last year...and Delgado carried the team for long stretches at a time. You also had Shannon Stewart for a majority of the season...a proven .300 hitter at the top of the lineup. Mike Bordick was stronger than what they have now; and Greg Myers had a HUGE season. For Ricciardi to think by acquiring some pitching that the hitting would remain at that high level was wishful thinking. I predicted this team was a .500 team...and, had it not been for the many injuries to so many key players, they would have achieved that. But no way is this a playoff team!

As for the future, Ricciardi's youngsters down in the minors hit a bit of a roadblock this year. Many from double A and A did not warrant getting promoted to triple A. And the few that did make it to Syracuse were at best mediocre - Gross, Jason Arnold, David Bush...and a couple suffered injuries (Dustin McGowan). So what this means is that next year will be another losing season, as they await the influx of Ricciardi's youth movement - which is the PLAN that he sold to Rogers when getting hired. So, Ricciardi cannot be judged until the youth make it to the majors - and that will happen in 2006.

So in the meantime, you need a manager that is able to relate to young players, is patient - does not let losses change his focus of developing the young players, and is a great teacher of the game.
 

pistol

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Tosca

Tosca is no more or less responsible for the Jays season than many others. Firing the coach is not necessarily an indictment of the job that individual has done. It is often done to shake up a team and often has a positive short term effect.
Last year's team over achieved and expectations were set unrealistically high.
For all the theory (Money Ball) Ricchardi's moves have produced little to date beyond adding Batista and Lilly to the rotation. Solid additions. Johnson, Wells, Rios, Hudson were in the system as was Haliday when he was hired. Delgado was already a fixture.
A number of veteran retreads have been brought in and moved to catch and play short. Hinske, a medicore 3rd baseman was acquired from Oakland, one of JP's few trading partners.
Delgado's departure will free up $17M to plug some of the holes in the dyke, but as Save Ferris says player development has been hurt by injuries and instability throughout the organization. Only when the system is producing star player faster than we are losing them will the Jays be competive under Ricchardi's watch.
 
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