Toronto Sun - Ontario teachers headed for court

[JohnLarue]

You mean the private sector pays people to stay home sick? Never happened for me, nor did any of the unions I belonged to ever ask for it in bargaining. No work=no pay; can't be a fairer exchange than that.

Thanks for helping me make my point
What the teachers have is far from what you describe
They are able to bank up to 200 days and many these cash out a year ahead of retirement to get paid a full year while sitting at the cottage instead of just the full summer

And by what legal right does your employer get to unilaterally tear up the contract she made to do that?

The contract is up.
That is why they are negotiating now

As for what right ??
I will assume you are not a lawyer.
I am not a lawyer, however I am pretty sure that bankruptcy essentially voids all legal financial obligations and permits a court to determine new parameters for the obligation if any

Unless you are stunned , it is clear that Ont will be heading down a path of default unless the public service unions are weaned off suckling from the public tit.
The tit is going to run dry in the very near future.

So are you stunned or just pig headed?

It is far better to manage a reasonable and sustainable change now than to have to resort to the wholesale layoffs occurring in Greece.
Those same dummies losing everything (pensions, jobs, savings, kids future) in Greece, also had a contract.

You always bring up a contact like its a commandment from god
Its not worth the paper it is written on it , if the counter party can not pay the obligation.

Time to wake up, the province can no longer afford to pay people 70 to 90K to go to the cottage for 2 1/2 months every year, fund their pension, raise their salary 3% every year and teach only two or three classes a day, when they finally get back from their ridiculous summer break

 

[Bachus]

Do you really want teachers at school when they are sick?
Teachers tend to get sick more than most other people because many many parents send their kids to school sick.
And then there are some of us that need to take the odd mental health day so that none of the little darlings that we teach end up in the hospital or worse because one of us snaps.
Given the new safe work legislation if I feel unsafe I can leave my work place... if I am forced to be around sick kids and am not compensated for the days I am off sick as a result you can be damn sure I will refuse to work unless that child is removed.
Working with at risk teens I tend to be sick more often than 10 days a year but it would be less without the sick kids.

You keep harping on the vacation time What do you care how many days we are off? we don't get paid for them. And we didn't ask for them either I would be more than happy with year round schooling. But there is an opportunity cost involved in changing our entire social structure to accommodate your need to see us working.

Yes the employer partially funds our pension but we also contribute to it and last I checked there are plenty of other people out there with pensions. Or you could let us do it ourselves but you would need to pay us more to do that, interesting that many of the private schools are now enrolled in the OTPF could it be that it is better for both parties?

Where is this school where I get to teach 2-3 classes a day? We are contracted to teach 6-8 blocks in secondary. This means that at a non-semestered school a teacher would teach 6 of 8 classes a day with around 35 students per class. But timetables are not that clear cut and prep time tends to average around 1 hour per day that is not very much time and most teachers are working far beyond our prep time on marking and other key functions. I'm not complaining just stating a fact, we do far more than we are paid to do but so do many other professions.

 

[basketcase]

#1 most private sector workers get no where near 20 sick days a year
More like 7-10 per year
#2. Banking them is such a ridiculous abuse, that no one in the private sector would even dream of requesting it.

Your statement seems to illustrate how out of touch with the real word some are

First off, banking of sick days usually came into contracts instead of raises. When companies don't want to pay more, allowing greater low cost benefits has been pretty standard.

Yes 20 seems high, 10 might seem more reasonable but they are a profession that deals with all kind of germy kids and are likely to be sick more than an office worker. Nurses at hospitals seem to take 15 or so sick days on average.

And as I've mentioned before, teachers (and nurses) being sick means someone else has to replace them and that costs money. Any incentive to reduce sick time makes sense financially. As a simple calculation, if teachers cash in a years worth of sick days (200 days) they get half a years worth of pay. Sounds like a significant savings for the province over the course of their career.

 

[basketcase]

They should have taught you common sense.
Are you the poster boy for claim that our multi- billion dollar education system provides good value?

The kids seem to score fairly well on international testing. of course there are ways to reduce cost but that would involve more insight than you or I have in how the system works.

 

[basketcase]

Thanks for helping me make my point
What the teachers have is far from what you describe
They are able to bank up to 200 days and many these cash out a year ahead of retirement to get paid a full year while sitting at the cottage instead of just the full summer
...

I severely doubt that. To do that they would likely need medical documentation. I'm sure there's people in every profession that scam the system but I doubt it's as easy as saying you're not coming in to work for a year. And from what I understand, if they used up their sick days then they wouldn't get the payout.


(and we're all in shit if the government declares bankruptcy.

 

[Bachus]

2 days with out documentation is the max.

eliminating all of the separate boards would be a huge savings but it would require a constitutional amendment and it would piss of a huge voting block.

Closing surplus schools. there are plenty of schools that just don't have the populations to justify their remaining open. Unfortunately most of these schools tend to be in affluent communities where property owners start screaming anytime it is even suggested that a school might need to close in their area because it might affect their property value.

One great cost saver that is currently underway in spite of the government is that a huge number of school boards in the province are banding together to group purchase supplies. This should help significantly help reduce costs.

As to the one province wide school board idea, bigger does not all ways mean better school boards need to be responsive to their local needs, having worked in the largest board in Canada I could go on and on about how being so big has lead to poorer quality.

 

[FAST]

Short day.

We are contracted to teach 6-8 blocks in secondary. This means that at a non-semestered school a teacher would teach 6 of 8 classes a day.

SO,... thats like 4 HRS per day teaching classes??

FAST

 

[FAST]

Different world

First off, banking of sick days usually came into contracts instead of raises. When companies don't want to pay more, allowing greater low cost benefits has been pretty standard.

I have NEVER worked for a COMPANY, big or small, that had banking sick days, and get to collect a cheque when you left or were fired.

But I honestly can't speak for unionized companies, as I have never worked for one.

FAST

 

[groggy]

I have NEVER worked for a COMPANY, big or small, that had banking sick days, and get to collect a cheque when you left or were fired.

But I honestly can't speak for unionized companies, as I have never worked for one.

FAST

So therefore nobody should get them?

 

[FAST]

Different realities

So therefore nobody should get them?

If its required to retain valued employees, fine.

But not when its acquired by union threats.

FAST

 

[FAST]

Politics

I'm still betting the Liberals lose Kitchener-Waterloo. We'll see.

I think your right, a lot of bright people there,...I was just stating why McWimpy was playing his anti teachers union game.

FAST

 

[basketcase]

If its required to retain valued employees, fine.

But not when its acquired by union threats.

FAST

As opposed to being gained by unions in exchange for reductions of other benefits?

 

[Bachus]

It depends on the school but My classes are an 1 and 15 minutes long. And if you think teaching 3 of them a day is easy you are welcome to come and try Fast. Like any performance an hour in front of the kids requires hours of preparation. I am rarely out of the building before 5 pm and when I am I often have hours of marking and other work to do when I am at home. The general rule when studying is 3:1 and I find that it is pretty much the same for teaching so at 3.75 hours in the class I end up working 10 to 12 hours a day, some of which I spread to the weekend but still ends up being well over a 40 hour work week. But I'm sure you will find fault with that too Fast. Oh Sorry FAST ...I take it the large letters hold some meaning for you.

 

[JohnLarue]

Do you really want teachers at school when they are sick?

Not at all.
If you are sick stay at home & get better
The issue is banking the excess sick days for a big payout at retirement. That has to go
At the end of the year any unused sick days for that year are gone.
Thats the way it works for salaried private sector employees

Teachers tend to get sick more than most other people because many many parents send their kids to school sick.
And then there are some of us that need to take the odd mental health day so that none of the little darlings that we teach end up in the hospital or worse because one of us snaps.

So now you deserve extra benefits in order to control yourself ??????

Given the new safe work legislation if I feel unsafe I can leave my work place... if I am forced to be around sick kids and am not compensated for the days I am off sick as a result you can be damn sure I will refuse to work unless that child is removed.
Working with at risk teens I tend to be sick more often than 10 days a year but it would be less without the sick kids.

Again, if you are not well, call in sick.
If you are sick more than 10-20 days a year, you have some issues which you should get checked out
(I am not sure if a doctor can diagnose "Entitlement")

You keep harping on the vacation time What do you care how many days we are off? we don't get paid for them.

I cant believe how often teachers try this slight of hand bull shit
You are on Salary & receive the $70-90K (well above the average tax papers income)
So yes you get paid for the 2 1/2 months whren you provide no service (or value) in the summer.
Do teachers really think they are fooling anyone with this "Classification/ description" of thier pay?

Why do I care?
The province is broke, running huge deficits and will be faced with astronomical increases in health care costs in the next few years.
The majority of the govt expenditures are for Health and Education and most of that is salaries.
This is unsustainable

So given the choice between receiving adequate health care in the future or allowing teachers to continue to milk the province through greed and inefficiencies, I prefer to put an end to the inefficiencies and waste in education.

Thats why I care how many days you do not work, yet are still paid
Wake up!

And we didn't ask for them either I would be more than happy with year round schooling. But there is an opportunity cost involved in changing our entire social structure to accommodate your need to see us working.

Major changes are required as the status quo is leading towards a financial disaster (AKA Greece)

Yes the employer partially funds our pension but we also contribute to it and last I checked there are plenty of other people out there with pensions. Or you could let us do it ourselves but you would need to pay us more to do that

How about you assume full responsibility for your retirement just like the majority of people in Ont?
Why is it you assume you have an entitlement which is well in excess of what the average taxpayer receives
This natural default to entitlement is the root of all that is wrong with the public sector and must change

Where is this school where I get to teach 2-3 classes a day? We are contracted to teach 6-8 blocks in secondary. This means that at a non-semestered school a teacher would teach 6 of 8 classes a day with around 35 students per class. But timetables are not that clear cut and prep time tends to average around 1 hour per day that is not very much time and most teachers are working far beyond our prep time on marking and other key functions. I'm not complaining just stating a fact, we do far more than we are paid to do but so do many other professions.

How long is a block?

Prep time?
Give me a break. If you have been teaching a subject for more than 2 years and you do not know this stuff cold, something is wrong

 

[train]

Do you really want teachers at school when they are sick? .

You really think the public is that stupid? If you are sick stay home. What the complaint is about is elevating sick days to bankable vacation status with payouts on retirement. While I fully believe you do understand the issues and are just spouting the duplicitous union bafflegab like a good little soldier, if you trully don't understand the sick days issue then you are too stupid to be teaching our kids.

 

[JohnLarue]

It depends on the school but My classes are an 1 and 15 minutes long. And if you think teaching 3 of them a day is easy you are welcome to come and try Fast. Like any performance an hour in front of the kids requires hours of preparation. I am rarely out of the building before 5 pm and when I am I often have hours of marking and other work to do when I am at home. The general rule when studying is 3:1 and I find that it is pretty much the same for teaching so at 3.75 hours in the class I end up working 10 to 12 hours a day, some of which I spread to the weekend but still ends up being well over a 40 hour work week. But I'm sure you will find fault with that too Fast. Oh Sorry FAST ...I take it the large letters hold some meaning for you.

If you are teaching the same subject over and over again, what prep work is required?

1 hr 15 mins X 3 = 4 hours of actual class time

So lets break this down
$80K per year * 1.25 for the benefits ( believe me this is a reasonable gross up factor if you have a defined benefit program ) = $ 100K (probably much higher)

52 weeks less the 10 weeks you spend at the cottage in the summer = 42 weeks
42 weeks less 2 weeks sick leave = 40 weeks
40 weeks less 5 PD days = 39 weeks
39 weeks less 8 stat holidays = 37 1/2 weeks = 188 actual teaching days
188 days * 4.0 hours = 732 hours of teaching

@ 100K all in cost to the province (and this is probably very light)

$ 100,000 / 864 hrs. = $133 / hr
in an enviorment where skilled tradesmen make $20-30 /hr if they are able to secure work (remember these are ones funding your excess)

It must be obvious to everyone, teachers are in desparate need of a increase ... NOT!

IN addition there are approx 400K teachers in Ont and 5 million tax payers
8-10% of the workforce is funded to a much higher average than the remaining 90% , by the remaining 90%

Add in al the public service paracites and the number moves up closer to 1/3 of the work force


Do the math, this not sustainable

 

[oldjones]

I'm still betting the Liberals lose Kitchener-Waterloo. We'll see.

As they didn't have it before, it would be more accurate to bet they'll lose in K-W; Weston however would be a loss for them, as it was their seat until Sorbara resigned.

 

[fun-guy]

Bottom line Bachus is the teachers are very well compensated for their services. I've monitored their progress over the last 30 plus years and compared them to other government workers who were on par back then but have easily surpassed them in compensation.

Teachers won't get much sympathy from the majority of the public with the current economic conditions in this province. Teachers have been well taken care of over the years with increases by the government, which us taxpayers have paid into, and now it's time for the teachers to give a little back to the taxpayer and do their part. Many in the private sector have, now it's the public sector that will have to do their part, starting with teachers, then doctors and other government and agency workers.

 

[basketcase]

If you are teaching the same subject over and over again, what prep work is required?

1 hr 15 mins X 3 = 4 hours of actual class time
...

I guess we should be cutting the excessive pay and benefits of MPPs since their time actually in the legislature is miniscule.

I've spent enough time coaching to know that knowing the material and getting kids to understand it is far different. I needed to plan practices to take into account the kids who were in front of me which did take time even though I had been coaching for years. Add to that reviewing game stats and tapes, my 5 hours a week of actual game and practice time ended up being about 10 hours of effort. I would think that fits pretty well with Bachus' comments.

 

[basketcase]

I don't dispute that teachers are well compensated but it's also an important and stressful job that does require two degrees. I don't begrudge them beyond their union making it difficult to deal with incompetence.

I also have no problem with bankable sick days or the payout since they are incentives that save the employer money. Probably 20 is high, maybe 10 bankable days would be more reasonable but any day a teacher is sick costs the board more money than the payout at the end.