Most teachers don't own cottages unless they were passed down the family. 10 years ago a teacher's max salary was in the 60K range. But whatever, just more rhetoric and attacks.
Toronto Sun - Ontario teachers headed for court
- Thread starter Moviefan-2
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Absolutely, the US's situation is tied to ours. From what I have seen so far certain indicators show ON is doing better than the US and UK.... not by a lot.Nice chart fuji.
However, GDP Ontarion has increased, but what about GDP/per capital? Which is a another measure of wealth. I didn't know if those figures presented reflected that, so after minute on this internet thingy, got some raw numbers.
1981 8,625,107
1986 9,101,695
1991 10,084,885
1996 10,753,573
2001 11,410,046
2006 12,160,282
Using 1981 as the base year, in 25 years the population of this province went up 40%.
Ontario GDP per head 1981 around $29,000 to 2001 $40,000. Seems about right.
I would like to say two things to you specifically, because I am not sure about the current debate you are in, it is too much to follow honestly speaking ...
1. The concept of price stickiness. For example, if I am paying a price for something, I don't want to pay any more. That is just human nature. The reverse is true, such as if the price of my labour is so much, then price stickiness demands that I won't want to be paid less. This applies to the private sector, the unions, the big multinational corporations.
Seem to me, all these numbers do not mean anything. Those three actors want to see their price remain constant at the detriment of the others. That is politics. Since I am a rational economic actor, I will think of my own interest.
2. Ben Bernake said last month that US job picture was anemic, due to the fact the US growth rate was below historical norms. Only if the GDP growth rate returns to historical norms would the job picture improve. Then he hints at QE3.
Well, if he says that, then this place Ontario, with manufacturing tied to the USA, this province has no hope either for the next couple of years at least.
We are faced with an economic pie that won't grow, more government commitments to social spending as the baby boomer retire, and basically no new government revenue.
With no economic solution available, hell, I am going to vote for the people who will hold the line on taxes. Listen to the left and you realize we got no choice. Once the left get going with the tax increases, they will know no limits to when to stop, until they are booted from office.
I do not consider myself an ideoglouge. I picked up this stuff by living in Ontario. It's a nice place to live.
The NDP (rae), Liberals(mcguinty) and PCs(harris) have each taken their shots at teachers in the last two decades. So I don't think it's correct to limit this to a problem with the left.
And to be precise I'm not looking to fund cottages, you asked me for a solution I gave you one.Asking me to pay higher taxes to fund your summer at the cottage is probably the most insulting thing I can think of
When put to a vote it probably won't happen as people don't want to pay more taxes. Compound that with anti teacher sentiments like yours make it likely to be a slam dunk. Note that the disdain for taces and teachers is what will get things to pass and nothing more.
I look forward to the next budget when we will see that the cuts will not do much of dent on the deficit. Then what do we do?
BTW can we try and have an intelligent conversation without your digs? We are well aware of your anti teacher sentiments and it's quite possible to talk without sharing those feelings. If anything your argument might even be more convincing if you left out the barbs and rheotoric. Although, I'll say that your conduct is far more telling of yourself and what you are like.
Since the actual bill is published on the government websites, I took a read and yes in fact, all previously banked sick days are locked and will be paid out upon retirement (to teachers who had that as part of a previous contract). http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/bills/bills_detail.do?locale=en&Intranet=&BillID=2665...
I, and everyone else in the union, thought the same until our lawyer investigated it. Sick days is not like taking away previously earned money in the legal sense. It's a benefit and they can indeed be taken away, as they already have done by reducing dental coverage, drug coverage, orthotics, etc... I was in shock when the lawyer informed us. I highly suggest you get a lawyer to review it. Or quite simply, ask your union. Don't assume, have it checked out. I guarantee you the city workers were finally informed by the union, after denying it for months, that once a contract expires the slate is wiped clean. The government has the legal option to cancel any sick days, banked or not, and they also have the option to put teachers on a lower pay grid, all legal. Whether they would or not is a different question and up for negotiations.
So it seems I was right that any cost savings on this will not be seen for a couple of decades.
So why bother to enact a change you say ?Since the actual bill is published on the government websites, I took a read and yes in fact, all previously banked sick days are locked and will be paid out upon retirement (to teachers who had that as part of a previous contract). http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/bills/bills_detail.do?locale=en&Intranet=&BillID=2665
So it seems I was right that any cost savings on this will not be seen for a couple of decades.
Not a long term thinker are you?
Personally I would prefer a lawyers opinion, as I have noticed a definite basis on your part
No just looking for me to fund your summer at a cottage ??And to be precise I'm not looking to fund cottages, you asked me for a solution I gave you one.
Unfortunately raising taxes is not a realistic or a equitable solution at all
It is not anti-teacher sentiment.When put to a vote it probably won't happen as people don't want to pay more taxes. Compound that with anti teacher sentiments like yours make it likely to be a slam dunk. Note that the disdain for taces and teachers is what will get things to pass and nothing more.
All public service employees need to become far more realistic and aware of the current economics.
I can not stand wasteful and irresponsible spending without regard for the people who provide the funds.
Teachers just happen to have some very over-the-top compensation and their contract just happens to be up for renewal
Well, the logical thing to do would be to cut wages and benefits across the board in the public sector.I look forward to the next budget when we will see that the cuts will not do much of dent on the deficit. Then what do we do?
It should be done right now
Sure, as long as you do not suggest raising my taxes, pretend that teachers are not compensated well in excess of the average taxpayer or default to ignoring the problem.BTW can we try and have an intelligent conversation without your digs? We are well aware of your anti teacher sentiments and it's quite possible to talk without sharing those feelings.
BTW, How can any teacher honestly say that the students are their number one priority, yet cancel extra curricular activity's because they were denied a raise???
It is actions like this which drive ill feelings towards teachers
I guess taking the time to read the bill is too much of a challenge?So why bother to enact a change you say ?
Not a long term thinker are you?
Personally I would prefer a lawyers opinion, as I have noticed a definite basis on your part
Since clicking a link may prove too difficult,
Seems pretty clear cut to me.7. Such days of sick leave credits as have been accumulated by an employee as of August 31, 2012 under a system of sick leave credit gratuities established under section 180 of the Education Act may be counted as standing to the employee’s credit, but no sick leave credits may be accumulated after that day except as may be allowed under the regulations made under section 180.1 of the Education Act.
8. Upon the retirement of the employee, such sick leave credits as have been accumulated shall be paid out at the rate of the employee’s pay as of August 31, 2012.
Better late than never
FAST
Never too late to correct a wrong !!!So it seems I was right that any cost savings on this will not be seen for a couple of decades.
FAST
OKMost teachers don't own cottages unless they were passed down the family. 10 years ago a teacher's max salary was in the 60K range. But whatever, just more rhetoric and attacks.
Asking me to pay higher taxes to fund you during the summer while you provide no tangible benefit is the most insulting thing I can think of
You say they maxed out @ 60K max 10 years ago and now they max out at 90K+
Thats a 50% increase. No way in hell the average taxpayers wage has increased by 50% in the last decade
That stat alone should tell you there is something really wrong with the teachers comp
No wonder we have a debt problem
FYI
I know more than a few teachers who spend the summer at the cottage & they did not inherent the cottage
You seam pretty informed for a non-teacher.I guess taking the time to read the bill is too much of a challenge?
Since clicking a link may prove too difficult,
Seems pretty clear cut to me.
Any chance someone else in your household (wife, girlfriend etc) is a public service employee?
My ex taught. Don't like her much now but it gave me a perspective into the job.
I also take the time to get informed about stuff I want to discuss.
btw. Do you accept that what I said is true now or are you still waiting for your lawyer?
I also take the time to get informed about stuff I want to discuss.
btw. Do you accept that what I said is true now or are you still waiting for your lawyer?
I will accept what you say as the truth & will ask my lawyer for clarification next time we chatMy ex taught. Don't like her much now but it gave me a perspective into the job.
I also take the time to get informed about stuff I want to discuss.
btw. Do you accept that what I said is true now or are you still waiting for your lawyer?
So if this is going to have a minimal impact on grandfathered teachers, why the big stink from them?
Either because they are too busy fixing the cottages you're paying for or are pissed off that they no longer have the right to negotiate with their employer?
Hey dropping the tax by 2% was a short term thought. IT assumed that the economy would continue to prosper.So why bother to enact a change you say ?
Not a long term thinker are you?
Personally I would prefer a lawyers opinion, as I have noticed a definite basis on your part
A max teacher nets 4K per month.... tell me how the pay their house, cottage and monthly bills?OK
Asking me to pay higher taxes to fund you during the summer while you provide no tangible benefit is the most insulting thing I can think of
You say they maxed out @ 60K max 10 years ago and now they max out at 90K+
Thats a 50% increase. No way in hell the average taxpayers wage has increased by 50% in the last decade
That stat alone should tell you there is something really wrong with the teachers comp
No wonder we have a debt problem
FYI
I know more than a few teachers who spend the summer at the cottage & they did not inherent the cottage
Assuming their house is worth 400K and so is the cottage (conservative) that's 800K over 25 yrs at 3.5% that's 4800 a month.A max teacher nets 4K per month.... tell me how the pay their house, cottage and monthly bills?
So let's say wifey is a teacher too. She now has 3200/month minus 1K in bills for the house leaving 2200/month..... no idea what the monthly expense on a cottage is, haven't paid for food, haven't accounted for kids.... if 800/month for food for a family of 4....1400/month.....and what about cost of owning two cars.....and where di the money for a downpayment for the house and cottage come from? This also assume that both are not carrying any debt be it credit, car or student related.
I'll wager that your teacher friends are either.... childless.... carrying only one mortgage..... came into extra money.....have a side business..... empty nesters with successful kids..... or the spouse has a higher paying job.... or they have a condo and a cottage.... house in GTA + cottage is tough to afford
Inside looking out
FAST
Holy shit dude,...do you even think before you type !!!A max teacher nets 4K per month.... tell me how the pay their house, cottage and monthly bills?
FAST
Since the actual bill is published on the government websites, I took a read and yes in fact, all previously banked sick days are locked and will be paid out upon retirement (to teachers who had that as part of a previous contract). http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/bills/bills_detail.do?locale=en&Intranet=&BillID=2665
So it seems I was right that any cost savings on this will not be seen for a couple of decades.
What you read is what is being proposed by the government only during the restraint period, which is basically for the next two years. This is what the government is proposing and to be enacted. Similar to a collective bargaining process whereby the employer proposes their position and whereby the union can counteract with their proposal, however in this case the government is legislating that the union can not counter proposal.
The government could have just as easily proposed legislation, or during the collective bargaining process if there was one, that all sick days accumulated to date will be eliminated. As I said this was reviewed by lawyers with the city workers and they stated that the city was in a legal position to do so.
Is this a popular decision or a wise one? Probably not as the backlash to government would have been severe. Ford used it as a bargaining weapon and a threat, and it worked because the union accepted a very low wage increase to protect sick days accumulated to date, and sick days were stopped going forward. With McGuinty, he is not using the elimination of previous banked sick days as a bargaining strategy or weapon like Ford did, he is legislating a freeze on accumulating any further sick days for the restraint period. Who knows what will happen after the restraint period expires.
Why do teachers feel they have right or deserve to own a cottage so their wages have to be high enough to do so? Owning a cottage is a privilege than many can't afford. The average Canadian made $46.000 in 2011. The average teacher's salary in 2011 was $83,865. Almost double the average, not too shabby I would say.Assuming their house is worth 400K and so is the cottage (conservative) that's 800K over 25 yrs at 3.5% that's 4800 a month.
So let's say wifey is a teacher too. She now has 3200/month minus 1K in bills for the house leaving 2200/month..... no idea what the monthly expense on a cottage is, haven't paid for food, haven't accounted for kids.... if 800/month for food for a family of 4....1400/month.....and what about cost of owning two cars.....and where di the money for a downpayment for the house and cottage come from? This also assume that both are not carrying any debt be it credit, car or student related.
I'll wager that your teacher friends are either.... childless.... carrying only one mortgage..... came into extra money.....have a side business..... empty nesters with successful kids..... or the spouse has a higher paying job.... or they have a condo and a cottage.... house in GTA + cottage is tough to afford
http://www.nucleuslearning.com/node/3158
Why do people here always try to take down others?Why do teachers feel they have right or deserve to own a cottage so their wages have to be high enough to do so? Owning a cottage is a privilege than many can't afford. The average Canadian made $46.000 in 2011. The average teacher's salary in 2011 was $83,865. Almost double the average, not too shabby I would say.
http://www.nucleuslearning.com/node/3158
Sure, they should be able to afford cottages and so should all of us. Seems to me that was pretty common in the '70's and '80's and whats changed since then?
Division of wealth.
Now the middle class are all under pressure while the upper incomes are doing just dandy.
So why do you think they shouldn't make that much?
Jealous?
I say, all the power to them, lets hope we all can make that much.
