Toronto Sun - Ontario teachers headed for court

[JohnLarue]

Well if I'm going to read one Fuji post today why not two.

Pleasant surprise that we agree. I've stated many times that a 0% raise with same benefits as before would be great.

http://www.theodora.com/wfbcurrent/canada/canada_economy.html

Turns out he is right the gdp for Canada has been increasing each year granted it lists it for 2009 to 2011 and it's for the whole country.

http://www.gfmag.com/gdp-data-country-reports/304-canada-gdp-country-report.html#axzz25whvB6wq

gdp dropped by 2.8% in 2009..... then went up by 3.2 2.5 and 2.1% in the next three years (the 2.1 is an estimate for 2012)

Can't find the line graph but we are not far off from 2008 gdp

You read Fuji's posts at your own peril.
He mis-represents facts !
This appears to be a good example
The increase in Canadian GDP is a result in increased oil production in the Western provinces

That has no bearing on the ONT GDP.
Are you confused as to who is funding your pay?

Ont has lost 500,000 high paying manufacturing jobs.
Ont GDP is not increasing & the provinces tax base has shrunk
Do you not understand this?

 

[Moviefan-2]

It should be interesting to see what happens to the teachers' wage freeze legislation this week, now that McGuinty failed to get his majority.

The bill is due to come up for third reading this week. Will McGuinty continue to stick with it?

Stay tuned....

 

[frankcastle]

You read Fuji's posts at your own peril.
He mis-represents facts !
This appears to be a good example
The increase in Canadian GDP is a result in increased oil production in the Western provinces

That has no bearing on the ONT GDP.
Are you confused as to who is funding your pay?

Ont has lost 500,000 high paying manufacturing jobs.
Ont GDP is not increasing & the provinces tax base has shrunk
Do you not understand this?

you do see the part in my post where I say "granted it lists it for 2009 to 2011 and it's for the whole country." That is me acknowledging that the stats I could find were only for the whole country.

Those people may have lost their jobs and that's a shame but they still have children who still need an education. Do you see any other sectors or businesses adjusting their prices to accomodate those people and their job loss? Are groceries any cheaper?

I don't mean to be harsh but if they want high paying manufacturing jobs they better move to where there are those jobs or stay here and find something else. You love talking about the real world that that's a real consequence of having limited earning potential.

You're not interested in helping out by paying more taxes and teachers are not interested in taking a paycut either. What are they supposed to be these noble people who will work for half their wages?

Anyways, we are back to the same old song and dance and I was happy to let that thread die.

If you are interested in discussing the original topic of the thread of the legal/court procedings great otherwise I think we really have nothing left to say to each other.

 

[frankcastle]

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/economy/ecaccts/analytical.html

Looks like it has been increasing with the exception of one year where it dropped in 2009 and it is higher now than before the drop.

 

[fuji]

Ont GDP is not increasing & the provinces tax base has shrunk

You all should know that John Larue sees the world with blinders on. He assumes his ideology is correct, and then claims as fact the predictions his narrow ideology makes. He doesn't really bother checking those facts--he's so convinced his ideology is true he just assumes his predictions are right. Well, let's do some fact checking, and see whether John Larue knows what he is talking about.

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/economy/ecaccts/oea_hist.xls

Look down to line 513 in table 9, "ONTARIO REAL GROSS DOMESTIC PRODUCT, EXPENDITURE-BASED, Millions of chained (2002) dollars" and what do we find?

1981 - $251,445
1991 - $323,008
2001 - $463,357
2011 - $538,816

We have experienced real GDP growth over every 10 year period, at an average rate of about 2% per year since 1981.

Whoops, I guess nobody better believe what John Larue says! His ideological based predictions simply do NOT line up with empirical reality.

 

[fuji]

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/economy/ecaccts/analytical.html

Looks like it has been increasing with the exception of one year where it dropped in 2009 and it is higher now than before the drop.

Heh, didn't see your post when I wrote mine, looks like we have roughly the same data.

 

[Possum Trot]

You all should know that John Larue sees the world with blinders on. He assumes his ideology is correct, and then claims as fact the predictions his narrow ideology makes. He doesn't really bother checking those facts--he's so convinced his ideology is true he just assumes his predictions are right. Well, let's do some fact checking, and see whether John Larue knows what he is talking about.

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/economy/ecaccts/oea_hist.xls

Look down to line 513 in table 9, "ONTARIO REAL GROSS DOMESTIC PRODUCT, EXPENDITURE-BASED, Millions of chained (2002) dollars" and what do we find?

1981 - $251,445
1991 - $323,008
2001 - $463,357
2011 - $538,816

We have experienced real GDP growth over every 10 year period, at an average rate of about 2% per year since 1981.

Whoops, I guess nobody better believe what John Larue says! His ideological based predictions simply do NOT line up with empirical reality.

Unfortunately expenditure and waste under this government have far out paced economic growth. Total debt was $133 billion when McSquint took over or roughy 28% of GDP. Despite the growth in GDP debt ballooned to 36% of GDP in 2011 and is projected to be 40% by 2014 or $240 billion. Scary stuff. Only Quebec is worse.

Freezing wages , if you allow grid movement does not help to improve the situation from the present.

 

[MyHobbyist]

good for them

 

[JohnLarue]

I don't mean to be harsh but if they want high paying manufacturing jobs they better move to where there are those jobs or stay here and find something else. You love talking about the real world that that's a real consequence of having limited earning potential.

So true, unfortunately, there are a lot of people in Ont who will have to make major changes
Possibly relocating, retraining or taking a pay cut.
That is the real world and it can be harsh.
Perhaps you may want to spend a bit of time in the real world

I am glad you recognize that the real world can be harsh, however, your expectation to be compensated well above the average taxpayer and be sheltered from any economic forces is very unrealistic


A real world consequence is the province can no longer afford all the teachers at the compensation level they demand

You're not interested in helping out by paying more taxes and teachers are not interested in taking a pay cut either.

As I pointed out, tax increases will probably be unavoidable when the demand for health care starts to sky rocket
But getting gouged more so that teachers can maintain the status Quo and ensure they get a sick bonus at the end of their career?
Not at all interested
My provincial taxes probably do not cover the amount the province pays a single teacher, during the summer months when they provide zero tangible benefit.
Please do not ask me or the average taxpayer to waste more of our taxes.

What are they supposed to be these noble people who will work for half their wages?

Nobody said anything about a 50% wage cut for teachers
(However now that you brought it up, it would solve the problem and be more aligned with the value provided - Ah, it will never happen !)

The reality is your take home probably will not even be affected (just be grateful, I am not running the show)
I know you may be more realistic, however some teachers feel they are entitled to a raise
In addition to a wage freeze, teachers have to,
a)give up the ridiculous banking of sick days
b) fund 100% of their own pension costs
c) be open to changes to improve the efficiency of the system including moving to a semester system if it will work
i.e work for the current rate during the summer months (and no that will not mean more $ coming your way)

Anyways, we are back to the same old song and dance and I was happy to let that thread die.

A smart man knows when to retreat, Frank, good for you

If you are interested in discussing the original topic of the thread of the legal/court proceedings great otherwise I think we really have nothing left to say to each other.

I have no interest is discussing how teachers are wasting more of my tax $ by taking the govt to court.
The priorities for this group are so messed up.
They place their financial well being far ahead of kids well being.
They are a shameful lot

 

[JohnLarue]

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/economy/ecaccts/analytical.html

Looks like it has been increasing with the exception of one year where it dropped in 2009 and it is higher now than before the drop.

You are correct
Damn, thats twice this year I was wrong
I would owe Fuji an apology, if he was not such an asshole.

I will offer you an apology as you not an asshole, just mis-guided.
The Provinces revenues have actually increased since 2008

Unfortunately Possum Trot is correct as well. The expenditures and debt growth have far outpaced the increase in revenues
That is also unsustainable and the need for spending cuts is still very real and valid

The position that teachers must make significant concessions remains

 

[frankcastle]

You are missing the point an increase in taxes plus a pay freeze would allow that revenue to address the deficit, not one cent of that tax increase would have to go to teachers.

I took a look at some employment stats....ON is 4th only to the 3 prarie provinces, employment has been increasing, we are doing better than the US or UK. Things are going to get better.

You're fooling yourself if you think that the problems of health care and the deficit are going to be solved without tax increases.

As pointed out before making hst 15 instead of 13 would mean an extra 6 billion that could go to those two problems and solve them quite quickly. That tax drop was done in better times so why not take it back?

Also, if we are talking revenues why not go after cash trades we all know there is a huge untapped resevoir of taxable income in the construction field. Heck there are handymen doing odd jobs charging $60/h cash do you think they are paying taxes on that? Your excuse is that it is difficult to track... but I just don;'t see why they get a pass. Same goes for the sex industry if I had to pay more and hobby less but knew that the increase meant more tax revenue I'd be fine with that.

Your arguments would carry more weight if you actually provided more than one stat and countless attacks and generalizations of teachers.

 

[frankcastle]

You are correct
Damn, thats twice this year I was wrong
I would owe Fuji an apology, if he was not such an asshole.

I will offer you an apology as you not an asshole, just mis-guided.
The Provinces revenues have actually increased since 2008

Unfortunately Possum Trot is correct as well. The expenditures and debt growth have far outpaced the increase in revenues
That is also unsustainable and the need for spending cuts is still very real and valid

The position that teachers must make significant concessions remains

BTW not really an apology if you throw in an insult at the same time.

 

[frankcastle]

You are correct
Damn, thats twice this year I was wrong
I would owe Fuji an apology, if he was not such an asshole.

I will offer you an apology as you not an asshole, just mis-guided.
The Provinces revenues have actually increased since 2008

Unfortunately Possum Trot is correct as well. The expenditures and debt growth have far outpaced the increase in revenues
That is also unsustainable and the need for spending cuts is still very real and valid

The position that teachers must make significant concessions remains

I'd like to see stats showing increased expenditures greater than the efffects of inflation rates and population growth.

Because I haven't noticed big increases in my taxes property and income and a good portion of the deficit was not caused by spending.

 

[JohnLarue]

You are missing the point an increase in taxes plus a pay freeze would allow that revenue to address the deficit, not one cent of that tax increase would have to go to teachers.

.

No, No and No again
No tax increases

This has to be addressed with spending cuts, long before the govt can ever think about a tax increase.
The public sector is addicted to extorting comp way out of proportion to thier economic worth.
It has to stop and right now

Your arguments would carry more weight if you actually provided more than one stat and countless attacks and generalizations of teachers.

One stat?
Come on!

The province is bleeding red ink and is asking teachers to give up benefits & comp the average taxpayer can only dream about.
Fair is fair, you are asking the average tax payer to fund you well in excess of what he recieves.

But no...... after all you are entitled for some strange reason

Just look at the the provinces debt and expenitures. the status quo is unsustainable

 

[JohnLarue]

BTW not really an apology if you throw in an insult at the same time.

Asking me to pay higher taxes to fund your summer at the cottage is probably the most insulting thing I can think of

 

[FAST]

Economics 101

As pointed out before making hst 15 instead of 13. That tax drop was done in better times so why not take it back?

The decrease in HST was done in an effort to stimulate the economy,...why would you increase the tax now,...when the economy is worse.

Also,...if you increase a tax, the cost of living goes up, and every union contract with COLA will automatically raise costs,...not a good thing economically.

FAST

 

[MyHobbyist]

fucking hilarious haha thanks!

 

[Polaris]

fucking hilarious haha thanks!

After a while, it won't be funny anymore.

Hang around TERB long enough and feeling of amusement toward certain attitudes (which to the best of my knowledge has been thoroughly discredited by the real world), feelings of amusement will turn into feelings of shock.

No joke, man.

:frusty:

 

[Polaris]

Look down to line 513 in table 9, "ONTARIO REAL GROSS DOMESTIC PRODUCT, EXPENDITURE-BASED, Millions of chained (2002) dollars" and what do we find?

1981 - $251,445
1991 - $323,008
2001 - $463,357
2011 - $538,816

We have experienced real GDP growth over every 10 year period, at an average rate of about 2% per year since 1981.

Whoops, I guess nobody better believe what John Larue says! His ideological based predictions simply do NOT line up with empirical reality.

Nice chart fuji.

However, GDP Ontarion has increased, but what about GDP/per capital? Which is a another measure of wealth. I didn't know if those figures presented reflected that, so after minute on this internet thingy, got some raw numbers.

1981 8,625,107
1986 9,101,695
1991 10,084,885
1996 10,753,573
2001 11,410,046
2006 12,160,282

Using 1981 as the base year, in 25 years the population of this province went up 40%.

Ontario GDP per head 1981 around $29,000 to 2001 $40,000. Seems about right.

I would like to say two things to you specifically, because I am not sure about the current debate you are in, it is too much to follow honestly speaking ...

1. The concept of price stickiness. For example, if I am paying a price for something, I don't want to pay any more. That is just human nature. The reverse is true, such as if the price of my labour is so much, then price stickiness demands that I won't want to be paid less. This applies to the private sector, the unions, the big multinational corporations.

Seem to me, all these numbers do not mean anything. Those three actors want to see their price remain constant at the detriment of the others. That is politics. Since I am a rational economic actor, I will think of my own interest.

2. Ben Bernake said last month that US job picture was anemic, due to the fact the US growth rate was below historical norms. Only if the GDP growth rate returns to historical norms would the job picture improve. Then he hints at QE3.

Well, if he says that, then this place Ontario, with manufacturing tied to the USA, this province has no hope either for the next couple of years at least.

We are faced with an economic pie that won't grow, more government commitments to social spending as the baby boomer retire, and basically no new government revenue.

With no economic solution available, hell, I am going to vote for the people who will hold the line on taxes. Listen to the left and you realize we got no choice. Once the left get going with the tax increases, they will know no limits to when to stop, until they are booted from office.

I do not consider myself an ideoglouge. I picked up this stuff by living in Ontario. It's a nice place to live.

 

[frankcastle]

No, No and No again
No tax increases

This has to be addressed with spending cuts, long before the govt can ever think about a tax increase.
The public sector is addicted to extorting comp way out of proportion to thier economic worth.
It has to stop and right now



One stat?
Come on!

The province is bleeding red ink and is asking teachers to give up benefits & comp the average taxpayer can only dream about.
Fair is fair, you are asking the average tax payer to fund you well in excess of what he recieves.

But no...... after all you are entitled for some strange reason

Just look at the the provinces debt and expenitures. the status quo is unsustainable

Hey you were wrong about the GDP..... what else are you wrong about. Produce some stats.