Toronto Garbage Strike Poll......

Who do you support in the Toronto Strike?

  • City

    Votes: 128 82.6%

  • Strikers

    Votes: 27 17.4%
  • Total voters
    155
Mrbig1949 said:
Just lowers the average standard of living across the board. The problem for you guys is that you are trying to sculpture a society that rewards what you do whatever that is. It is far more important to take care of everybody. You want policies that drive up the average standard of living so everybody benefits, not just you.
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Can someone define 'standard of living' for me. I thought I knew what it meant, but the way it has been used in this thread is confusing. I understand that the cost refers to the relation of income and required income. To me 'standard of living' refers to societal expectations of 'living' (i.e. expected commodities, necessities, comfort, etc.).
 
Mrbig1949 said:
You endlessly use words like "proven" "concede defeat" declare yourself the winner. You are a joke. Many countries are very successful using my model. Who is successful using yours? The USA, the source of all that is wrong with the world? don't make me laugh, LOL.
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More pounding on the table. Come on dude, you are simply hanging yourself.

You can't expand the middle class by paying unskilled workers fake high wages. If they are being payed more than they produce it is not sustainable. You expand the middle class by increasing the number of skilled workers and producing more per person.

We need more GOOD JOBS that are good because they produce a lot of value for people, valued goods, valued services. We can't just take a bunch of crap jobs and up their salaries and call them middle class. That leads to all kinds of horrendous problems and makes everybody worse off in the end.

In your world the way to make everybody middle class is to start paying $100k/year to burger flippers at McDonalds and say that they are "leading" the economy. You think that is just as good as having a skilled tool and die maker, or plumber, or software developer, or engineer who earns that wage because he has a hard job that took years of education and experience to become good at.

To you it doesn't matter WHAT the job is so long as the wage is artificially high--even if it is something worth very little like flipping burgers or picking up trash.

You're a joke.

We can't replace good, skilled, high quality jobs with a bunch of McDonalds and Walmart jobs and just make the salary higher and call it the same thing--that just doesn't work, you actually need to produce stuff worth more than what you get paid in order to have a sustainable salary that makes society "across the board" better off. The OUTPUT of the work has to be worth more than the salary paid.

Common. Fucking. Sense.
 
fuji said:
More pounding on the table. Come on dude, you are simply hanging yourself.

You can't expand the middle class by paying unskilled workers fake high wages. If they are being payed more than they produce it is not sustainable. You expand the middle class by increasing the number of skilled workers and producing more per person.

We need more GOOD JOBS that are good because they produce a lot of value for people, valued goods, valued services. We can't just take a bunch of crap jobs and up their salaries and call them middle class. That leads to all kinds of horrendous problems and makes everybody worse off in the end.

In your world the way to make everybody middle class is to start paying $100k/year to burger flippers at McDonalds and say that they are "leading" the economy. You think that is just as good as having a skilled tool and die maker, or plumber, or software developer, or engineer who earns that wage because he has a hard job that took years of education and experience to become good at.

You're a joke.

Common. Fucking. Sense.
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Common sense? Doesn't exist. Knowledge only becomes common once it's internalized.

I dunno. A main function of capitalism is a dual class system. Maybe in early stages having a middle class is beneficial because they fuel mass consumption, but as capitalism matures you have to think that members of the middle class move up or down the social order.
Your line about creating 'more good jobs' is also somewhat flawed. Good versus bad is very subjective. What bring 'value to people' changes constantly. If everyone has 'good job' then who does the bad one. It's part of the paradox that we live in today. Certain careers are over-glorified while others are stigmatized. If everyone owns their own business, who's gonna be the employees?
 
Toke said:
What bring 'value to people' changes constantly.
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Yeah what people value changes, so demand changes, so prices change, and that changes the supply. Economics 101.

Yes, society is constantly in flux, and so the market is in a constant state of flux. This is where I become a socialist--people got tossed out of jobs that used to be good jobs because of changes in demand or technology. I don't think it's fair to have that person starve, so I believe in programmes that support that person through the hard transitions, to retrain and re-educate that person to get them back out there into the economy doing something more valuable.

I believe in managing change, and spending money to manage change, to help smooth over some of the transitions that would otherwise be quite harsh. But at the end of the day, the goal is to manage the change, to adapt to reality--not stick your head in the stand and pretend that working at McDonalds flipping a burger or picking up trash is just as valuable a job as churning out cars or building houses.
 
Toke said:
If everyone has 'good job' then who does the bad one.
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Three answers to this:

1. Somebody will get the bad job. The person who worked less hard in school, the person who is lazier, etc., will get the bad job. This is fair, no? Not everybody gets the same--the harder working, smarter people should get more.

2. We can reduce the number of bad jobs through technological improvement and increased education. With an overall more educated, more capable workforce, we can increase the proportion of good jobs and decrease the proportion of bad ones. A lot of bad jobs can be automated out of existence.

3. There is also a question of national strategy which is important here. We want to jockey for position with other nations to make sure that we as a nation get the good jobs by specializing in the sorts of industries that are characterized by good jobs, rather than than specializing in the ones that are mostly bad jobs.
 
fuji said:
Yes, society is constantly in flux, and so the market is in a constant state of flux. This is where I become a socialist--people got tossed out of jobs that used to be good jobs because of changes in demand or technology. I don't think it's fair to have that person starve, so I believe in programmes that support that person through the hard transitions, to retrain and re-educate that person to get them back out there into the economy doing something more valuable.
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I guess this means that, in a weird way, we agree. Socialist-Toke believes that all people and jobs have a place in society. What I think needs to be done, as radical as it is, is for everyone to be given the opportunity to choose their contribution to society. If it's needed great. If not, choose again. If someone has no desire to contribute; give them their 'walking papers' and wish them luck. Very radical, but this is the 'Coles Notes' version.

fuji said:
Three answers to this:

1. Somebody will get the bad job. The person who worked less hard in school, the person who is lazier, etc., will get the bad job. This is fair, no? Not everybody gets the same--the harder working, smarter people should get more.
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This is part of the problem. One thing that is constant in society is the fact that youth are generally seen as lazy. Sure, I could be lazy but I'd argue that young people are much more educated than their parents and grandparents. Not only because their are more schools, but because the competition is greater. What high-school used to get you forty years ago, won't get you today... and so on. Using your logic, today's youth should be taking over senior positions that are currently being held by Boomers. Sure ethic and volition play parts, but as quickly as the parts are put in place, the structure changes. I'm surprised by the amount of students that are going after Master's degrees today. While a BA used to be a launching pad, today it's merely a springboard.

Hopefully I haven't hijacked the thread..
 
blackrock13 said:
Have you all got your seat for the David Miller phone -in on CP24 at 9:00pm
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Missed it.
Jist?
 
Mia.Colpa said:
Common sense is an oxymoron. If sense was so common, then why do so few people have it.
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Similar to the terms 'social democratic'.

Someone once told me that common sense is the least common of the senses.
 
blackrock13 said:
Have you all got your seat for the David Miller phone -in on CP24 at 9:00pm
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Poor David Miller is getting all the heat (macleans cover and all that). Why are Mark Ferguson and Ann dembinski getting a free pass:( ? Mark and Ann could end this stupid strike in 10 minutes.
 
Rockslinger said:
Poor David Miller is getting all the heat (macleans cover and all that). Why are Mark Ferguson and Ann dembinski getting a free pass:( ? Mark and Ann could end this stupid strike in 10 minutes.
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If i knew who they were I might have an answer.
 
blackrock13 said:
If i knew who they were I might have an answer.
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Mark and Ann are the ringleaders of this strike. Macleans should also have put them in the garbage can photo next to Miller.
 
Rockslinger said:
Mark and Ann are the ringleaders of this strike. Macleans should also have put them in the garbage can photo next to Miller.
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The cover could have been Twiddle Dee, Twiddle Dumb and Twiddle Dumber; You choose.
 
Rockslinger said:
Poor David Miller is getting all the heat (macleans cover and all that). Why are Mark Ferguson and Ann dembinski getting a free pass:( ? Mark and Ann could end this stupid strike in 10 minutes.
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Poor? Why should he get sympathy? He is not worthy of it.
 
Rockslinger said:
Maybe you are right. Old Irish proverb: "When you sleep with snakes, don't be surprised if they bite you."
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They wrote a song about that exact thing, by ..................
 
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