Too Much Immigration ?

[ice_dog]

Mr X says :

this country actually has a labour surplus - created by our high immigration rates, yet we still suffer from a lack of skills!

i am not a right wing, racist immgrant basher, but i believe that our "conventional wisdom" about "more immigration is good" is totally wrong - we would be better of being more selective about immigrants - quality not quantity is the important thing...

Well,what are your thoughts ?

My questions are :

WIll this country be better off if we stop/curb immigration as suggested by Mr. X. ?

Adrienne Clarkson, our governor general, is of chinese background, and was born in HongKong. Are you saying that she is one of the reason the loonie is low ? Are you gonna to telll her to go home , Mr. X ?

I agree that it is a good idea to attract high-quality immigrants. The truth is that the brightest usually want to go to U.S. as their # 1 destination. Many immigfrants are well educated, but under-employed, because it is always hard to be integrated into the main stream if you did not go thru the unviersity system here.

To be honest with you, I have seen many immigrants in workplaces, who are far more technically competant than their Canadian co-workers.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Curse Those Japanese!

If your Chevy drops her tranny or your Chrysler starts to rot
If the Ford you paid top dollar for ain't half the car you bought
There's only one solution short of prayin' on your knees
Just do what Iaccoca does and curse those Japanese!

If your TV should be color but black and white is all you get
Manufactured in America... one fucked up TV set
If your satelite can't dish it out, don't blame the FCC
It's only one more reason son to curse those Japanese!

Cry upon your congressmen,
don't give up the fight!
Just be a true American,
and litigate for your right!

A desert storm in '91 that shook the Middle East
America was proud again for Bush had tamed the beast!
Our boys came home to roam the streets
no Job, despite their pleas
The market's dropped, it can't be stopped So Curse those Japanese!

When it comes to work, my ethic's fine
just don't you give me no overtime.
I punch my card, then off I go,
If it works or not, I don't care to know!

Courtesy: Prof. Feedback (The Executive$)

 

[torex]

Ice Dog,I have to agree with you!
I know a few immigrants who are highly educated but are working your basic labour jobs.
I realize Mr.X feelings, as I do feel the same way.It's the immigration laws that have to change.
I just don't understand why we let certain people into this country knowing they are heading straight for the welfare office.

My ex's father owns 3 pizza joints in Hamilton.He's been trying to get his brother here for 17 years telling the government he will sponser ,house and even give him his own business.They still won't let him in!!!he's never been convicted or in trouble with the law in anyway.
Honestly I just don't understand immigrations tatics sometimes.

 

[oldguy]

Decca -
From south of the border, the same goofy things go on here and it makes no sense. I have some friends from Costa Rica that would like to visit the USA on vacation, but they say that it is very difficult to be allowed to visit the US - they have to stand in line all day at the embassy to get a visa application, pay a big (to them) application fee, and then most likely get rejected unless they can prove they own a lot of stuff (I guess so that they would be unlikely to stay). On the other hand, if someone from Iran wanted to come over, our INS service would say Sure! and we would problably help pay there tuition to a university.

I don't understand the immigration rules at all. There is no common sense whatsoever in them.

 

[torex]

Yes,It's crazy the way immigration does business!

I remember a few years back when the war in Somalia was going on.One of the top warlords in somalia who was known for his killing sprees of innocent people including children had his wife sent here to Canada.I remember city T.V interviewing her in her $1800/mnth townhouse,chewing her gum during the interview like a goat chews grass stating her husband does nothing wrong and we are obligated to bring him here for protection.Unbelievable!!!,then the immigration board grants her a visa on a dime so she can stand by his side during peace talks.

Why is our government wasting time on these people when there are so many others willing to come herework hard for a better life?

Canada is like a vacation resort for people who don't want to work!we'll pay you to do nothing!

 

[torex]

Kiarra problem being that many of these immigrants live this way in their homelands.
15 in house to them is probably very comfortable!

 

[clipper]

Immigration vs Refugee Status

It's easy to get a visa to enter Canada, then set up a refugee status hearing, and then because the system is so backlogged disappear into the illegal immigrant world. There is a well-established and backlogged procedure that prevents rapid deportation. Immigration lawyering is a growth profession.

Becoming a legitimate immigrant is more difficult. You are expected to bring capital and skills into the country.

I don't think any of this creates a labor surplus. There is a WORLDWIDE labour surplus. As for this driving down our dollar, I say it's a question of perception. The US dollar has appreciated against EVERY other currency in the world, less against our dollar than say the Australian dollar or the German Mark.

One of the reasons for having the Euro is to have a currency that's less likely to get the shit kicked out of it by the US dollar.
Even still the Euro has fallen as much as 40% against the US buck.

I work with many highly skilled Romanians, Pakistanis, Russians
etc. as a computer programmer and the skills these people possess are awesome! You only tend to see the immigrants that stick out by not fitting in.

Realistically, if Canada is going to have a healthy domestic market for its homegrown businesses, it needs more people, not less.

Being the world's policeman means the US gets some major positive benefits in terms of the strength of their dollar.
Their purchasing power has gone up 40% based on the exchange rate, then they have the gall to
whine and complain about "unfair trading"

 

[ice_dog]

I believe the laws have to be changed as well but not for the same reasons. My Dad has been working at the same job for 15yrs and when he started the company had all white guys working, now my dad is one of two white guys that work all the rest are immagrants. They only for 6 months out of the year and then they go on UI. and send another family member in to work for 6 months and the pocess starts all over again. Not including the four people at home collecting welfare.There are 4 families all ....

Do you know why most of the workers at your father's company are new immigrants ?

Answer: It is because only new immigrants, especially those withlittle skills and educations, are interested in this kind of job.


What will happen if we curb immigration so that such people are barred from entering this country ?

Answer: Your father is gonna to have a hard time finding people to work for him.

 

[Quest4Less]

Real immigrants..

I don't have a problem with people of any sort coming here to make a better life for themselves. What I despise and think should not be allowed is when you get the ones who come here because Canada is such a great country to live in (it really is you know), and then they try to change OUR way of life. They start demanding that we pay for everything they want with our tax money (ie - churches, schools, community centres), and even worse, when they change something so totally Canadian as the RCMP uniform to fit THEIR demands. They put up signs in their own language, don't even bother trying to learn one of our official languages, bring their crime and wars and infighting here... etc.

And then if we complain, well we are called racist. I say keep the honest ones who truly want a better life and are willing to work for it, and KICK THE REST OUT.

 

[syn]

my thoughts ...

were you aware that canada just finalized the biggest overhaul of immigration laws in the last 25 years?

we have a point system in place that favours individual immigrants with workforce skills, education, training and language skills. some trades are favoured over others. some countries are favoured over others.

did you know that you need a post graduate degree, fluency in english or french, a pre-arranged job, 3 years of work expeience and a family member in canada to get the 75 points?

you need a 75/100 (rather than the former 70/110). so it has been made more difficult to come here.

kind of limits tradespeople and nurses ... among others from coming to our fine country.

at present, canada brings in over 250,000 immigrants a year - that is expected to be raised to 300,000 ... such #'s are necessary considering the declining birth rate.

we are a multi-cultural society ... not a melting pot. so a little bit of tolerance of difference should not be too much too ask!

syn

 

[luckyjackson]

I also think there are some things that could be tweaked in our immigration system, but the idea that Canada should accept only those with education, skills and money etc., if hilarious because of one tiny flaw.

By and large, those people don't have any interest in coming here!

With a few extraordinary exceptions, such as the Hong Kong example, you would have to have a major screw loose to leave your country of origin and come here if you're in possession of the types of skill being named here.

Example:

Say I'm a person with good computer skills, (or any other kind of knowledge worker for that matter), and I reside in Asia, South America, or even Europe. Do I pack up my bags and leave for Canada to compete with a large pool of similarly skilled workers, where I can freeze my ass off and pay North American rates for housing, food etc., and where the local 7-11 passes for culture?? Or do I stay where I am, where I'm likely one of a few, get treated well, have a much larger disposable income, and probably enjoy a much nicer climate to boot? Get serious. People don't want to immigrate to Canada to do the country any favours.

Canada has benefitted HUGELY from encouraging immigration, and focusing on the relatively small negative aspects of the immigration experience is like throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Sorry to burst the WASP bubble.

 

[clipper]

Disagree

You leave Europe and bring your computer skills to Canada if you are from Russia or Romania. I know, I work with these people every day and they are very talented.

 

[luckyjackson]

good point, but my example still holds. You leave Russia behind and you are leaving a climate that's the same or worse than ours, with a similar cost of living and you're just trading up to come to Canada. But if you're from India, (yes there are many highly skilled workers there), or Singapore or Malaysia - forget it, you'll never trade what you got there for what you might get here.

 

[mr. x]

well, this thread was started because of the comments i made in another thread, and i would like to clarify a few things, and expand upon some ideas:

first off, i have a lot of respect for the governor-general, and the majority of other people who have immgrated here - it takes a lot of guts to move to a foreign country and to start a new life (mind you, it used to take eve nmore guts 100 years ago when this country was wilderness and immigrants couldn't just hop on a plane to visit their family in the old country).

let me rephrase my thesis: immigration is a good thing, but you can have too much of a good thing - beyond some point, more is not necessarily better, and, as others have mentioned, there is a lot that is messed up in the specifics of our immigration laws and how they are implemented.

the federal liberals set a goal of immgration equal to 1% of the existing population - this number was arbitrarily set - just pulled out of the air. at other times, there has been talk of DOUBLING the existing immigration levels. this is not how policy should be made - just because it sounds nice and makes people fell all warm and fuzzy about what a great country this is!

There are problems with our exiting policies - like the proverbial PHDs who drive cabs, there are many educated immgrants who come here expecting to work in their field, but find that they can't because their credentials aren't accepted -so they end up doing unskilled jobs. this lack of co-ordination between immgration law and what the provinces/professional bodies accept is ludicrous. this is a tremendous waste in many ways - the immgrant moves here expecting a better life, and doesn;t find it - our need for skilled people to fill jobs goes unsatisfied - and as many of these people come from 3rd world countries, we deprive those countries of their best and brightest people!

and Canada is not underpopulated -what is meant by "underpopulated"? why is more people good - when, for example, we have been lecturing 3rd world countries to get their population growth under control!

 

[mr. x]

let me continue my rant (sorry if i ain't as funny as dennis miller)...

my point is that we often look for reasons why the economy has been bad or why this country has under-performed economically compared to the US - I often think that maybe we are doing everything wrong - the policies of low inflation, lower taxes, redcing the debt, free trade, massive immgration have not raised our standard of living, despite the fact that these things are the "conventional" soltions for economic growth! maybe we should change course on some or all of these things... or at least question them, and figure out what the real implications are.

its funny, but when everyone agrees on something, it is often an indication that something isn't right... rmember how everyone was once predicting $100 a barrle for oil, or the tech boom, or the real estate boom of the 80's - experience has taught me that when most people except something as a given, if often needs to be thought through more closely!

there are other reasons why we should think of reducing (no, not stopping) immgration...

we like to think of Canada as being a good citizen in the world, but the fact is that while we do peacekeeping and try to promote good things (democracy,...) and pay our dues to the uN and stuff, we need to look at how immgration affects the world, as well as our own quality of life.

i already noted how by attracting immgrants we are stripping needy third world countries of the thing they need the most - education and skills, but it goes beyond this.

Canada , like the US, is one of the most wasteful countries on the planet - we use up more resoucres and energy (per capita) than almost anyone, with the possble exception of the US. the same goes for pollution too. remember, when people move here, they adopt our lifestyle, making this situation worse.

in addition, look at the effect immgration has on our own enviromnent - why is the oak ridges morraine threatened? becuase the GTA is expanding so fast, mostly due to immgration (more than 1/3 of all immgrants come to the GTA).

the best farmland in canada happens to be in and around toronto, and the other big cities that will grow from immigration - this loss of farmland is also an environmental threat, and a threat to our economy.

expanding our population also means that we use up more of our own resources here, reducing our exports... mind you, i believe that we shoiuld be reducing our dependence on resource industries and increasing our reliance on services and manufactured goods - but the thing is, with immgration, we need to keep jobs in those secotrs to keep unmeployment from rising.

i could go on - their are issues related to infrastructure and other things, but that should be enough to provoke a few more responses for now!

 

[Quest4Less]

The real world..

More is not always better.... (very true).

As for the "new" act that Syn mentions... it was written by the same Liberal bleeding heart spineless weasels as every act since P.E.T. was in power. Someone with guts has to write in a little muscle and some teeth to give us a proper act. As I mentioned I have no problem with those who are honest and hard working coming here for a better life, but when we allow war criminals and terrorists et all in then I think we can all see that there is a problem. Never mind those that just lie and end up on welfare and health care spitting out babies like roaches.

Some rules that should be in place IMHO:

If you spend more time on welfare than working - get out.
If you commit a crime (any crime) - get out.
If you don't learn 1 of our languages in 5 years - get out.
If you don't become a citizen in 10 years - get out.

I have no problem with multiculturism, but when Canada is told "bend over b**ch", well... someone has to say ENOUGH.

Sorry to rant, but in my job I see way to many people getting away with abusing the system every day just because we let them.

 

[mr. x]

of course, i do think we should make an exception for attractive young ladies from eastern europe or asia who want to come here and provide services to hobbyists such as ourselves!

LOL!

 

[Exciter]

Not like it used to be in the 70's

I don't have a problem with immigrants who come to Canada to build a better life, be nearer to their family or flee for their safety (as in war).

Most of these folks are honest and hardworking, like the immigrants who came in the 70's.

Some of these folks will quietly abuse and live off our public systems when they shouldn't be. I would like to blame them, but really it's our government who is at fault for making it so easy for people to get away with this.

Now the people who I cannot tolerate are the ones who make it a point to not even try to hide their fraudulent intentions ( you know, the ones driving their BMW's sporting their Rolex watches to the welfare office ). They come in and literally demand for services that are paid by taxpaying Canadians and many times they will use another family members ID to obtain services. And when they get busted they make a big stink like Canada owes them. They simply don't get it that they need to play by our rules. It's to this new breed of blatantly arrogant & brash immigrants that I say "Get the f#ck out!" Canada does not need you.

Exciter

 

[luckyjackson]

Posted by Quest4less

If you spend more time on welfare than working - get out.
If you commit a crime (any crime) - get out.
If you don't learn 1 of our languages in 5 years - get out.
If you don't become a citizen in 10 years - get out.

Lucky for the white trash pop. that you put in those last 2 points, or they'd be in deep trouble.

 

[mr. x]

Re: The real world..

[B
Some rules that should be in place IMHO:

If you spend more time on welfare than working - get out.
If you commit a crime (any crime) - get out.
If you don't learn 1 of our languages in 5 years - get out.
If you don't become a citizen in 10 years - get out.

I have no problem with multiculturism, but when Canada is told "bend over b**ch", well... someone has to say ENOUGH.

Sorry to rant, but in my job I see way to many people getting away with abusing the system every day just because we let them. [/B]

i didn't want my comments to spark comments aboutimmgrants abusing welfare, etc.

i agree that immgrants should learn to speak english or french, or that we should make this a prioirty under the pints system. i have knocked on doors and found it dishearteneing to not be able to communicate directly with many of the hard working immgrants who live here, and who should be participating in broader Canadian society, and not just with their families and ethnic communities.

yes, there are bad some apples, but according to a study which was done on immgration, the ones most likely to need welfare are the ones who come as refugees - and often it is related to the reasons why they came here as refugees in the first place (violence and war, rape, lack of education and skills, etc.) that make it difficult for them to adjust and prosper here.

but, our policy on refugees is a whole other debate.

thinking back to my earlier post, i remembered the seinfeld episode where george discovers that if he does the exact opposite of the way he normally deals with problems, he actually begins to do well in life - that is sort of my thesis here - that maybe we should try reversing some policies, like immgration, and we might do better!

more thoughts later...