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Thomas Jefferson

oldjones

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Aug 18, 2001
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GlenQuagmire said:
…edit…Citing history doesn't mean you condone it…
One doesn't condone history. One condones the bad actions of people. Like slave-owning. As you did: 'Slave owning is OK as long as the law says so'. As you pointed out the law of Jefferson's time did.

For all his noble writings Jefferson, like everyone else, was not an entirely good man. In some aspects he was downright bad, even if he never saw the inside of the local pokey or had a judge tell him so.

But I'd just bet he'd have been uncomfortable with the logic-chopping and casuistry you're using to 'defend' him. Unless of course you're aware of some unknown footnote saying 'unalienable' is meant to apply only to white Virginia planters and their ilk, and only for as long as, and until modified by any legislative body authorized to do so. Such as GeorgeIII's Parliament at Westminster. Oops!

Either the truths are self-evident or the laws trump them. Can't have both, like you're trying to.

IF there are eternal truths ("self-evident" was his term) then not to apply them to all people, women and slaves included—even to decide not to by a vote—doesn't cut it. But we can promise that we will never be so crass and callous. If the Declaration was just a but of overblown contemporary pamphleteering, so be it, and we can still promise we'll make that cheap politicking real. Because either way that's a damn fine expression of what we should aim our governments at.

But lets try to leave the XVIIth C's hipocrysy behind us. We have enough of our own.
 

GlennQuagmire

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Well bottie, it looks like you blew all your political capital on this thread.
Time for you.....or one of your alternative handles to come up with another inane thread like this one!

LMFAO!!!!!!!........:p
Care to put your money where your mouth is? Let's have the moderator check my ip address against OTB's. If my ip address is geographically anywhere near to OTB's then ban both of us. If it isn't, then ban yourself. Do you agree?
 

GlennQuagmire

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What debate? You keep ducking out behind legal technicalities.

It's like this: There are moral and ethical principles, and there are laws. Good people make laws that reflect their good principles. When the laws don't match the principles they are bad laws and need to be changed. The Founding Fathers believed it was OK to revolt, defy legal authority and kill when they thought the laws didn't live up to principles that benefitted them. Then they fumbled the ball.

They staunchly upheld the laws that deprived their black brethren of similar benefits, bloodily punishing and suppressing any attempt to claim those inalienable rights for anyone w/ a drop of African blood. Which racism naturally progressed to genocide of the original inhabitants of the continent. And you're defending them for it.

Conservatives—real conservatives, who try to hold onto proven values—have much to contribute to society and we need them. But the unprincipled BS that shamming pretenders to the name try to pass off—like that sort of pettifogging crap—smears them all.

There isn't anyone elevated to high status, who doesn't stand on feet of clay. Real progress comes when you stop looking up to them and imagining their received wisdom is all you need ever to know. Progressive liberals, as they were, start by examining principles, and using them afresh, as they did, to make changes for the better.

And they don't stop because some bible told them so.
WTF? ONCE AGAIN...CITING HISTORY DOESN'T MEAN YOU CONDONE IT! HOW HAVE I DEFENDED SLAVERY? If i mention the holocaust does that mean I approve of it?

Honestly, this is the most frustrating political forum because of all the straw men arguments. IS THERE ANY CHANCE THAT ANY LIBERAL CAN STAY ON TOPIC?
 

GlennQuagmire

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One doesn't condone history. One condones the bad actions of people. Like slave-owning. As you did: 'Slave owning is OK as long as the law says so'. As you pointed out the law of Jefferson's time did.

For all his noble writings Jefferson, like everyone else, was not an entirely good man. In some aspects he was downright bad, even if he never saw the inside of the local pokey or had a judge tell him so.

But I'd just bet he'd have been uncomfortable with the logic-chopping and casuistry you're using to 'defend' him. Unless of course you're aware of the footnote saying 'unalienable' is meant to apply only to white Virginia planters and their ilk and only for as long as and until modified by any legislative body authorized to do so. Such as GeorgeII's Parliament at Westminster.

Can't have it both ways: IF theres are eternal truths ("self-evident") then not to apply them to all—even to decide not to by a vote—doesn't cut it. BUt we can promise that we will never be so crass. If it was just a but of pamphleteering, so be it, and we can promise we'll make that cheap politicking real.

But lets try to leave the XVIIth C's hipocrysy behind us. We have enough of our own.
Thank you for correcting my gramatical error. You then attributed a quote to me - 'Slave owning is OK as long as the law says so' - that I never made. What would make you do such a thing?
 

GlennQuagmire

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I disagree that he was within his rights to own slaves. It was and is a crime against humanity. All that changed was that America ceased the abuse of the human rights of its black citizens. It does not mean that it was EVER justifiable. As I said in an earlier post the US Constitution is not a document of sufficient weight to grant or revoke fundamental human freedoms. Nor is the constitution of any country.

When Germany made it constitutionally acceptable to murder Jews that did not make it legally or morally OK for them to do so--their constitution was not a document of sufficient legal weight to revoke Jewish human rights, and similarly the American constitution is not powerful enough to pretend to grant or revoke black ones.

Such rights are unalienable, beyond the grasp of any government to rescind, no matter how constituted.
Your analysis is spot on, but people still have to operate in a world controlled more or less by the law of the land.
 

oldjones

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Aug 18, 2001
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WTF? ONCE AGAIN...CITING HISTORY DOESN`T MEAN YOU CONDONE IT! HOW HAVE I DEFENDED SLAVERY? If i mention the holocaust does that mean I approve of it?

Honestly, this is the most frustrating political forum because of all the straw men arguments. IS THERE ANY CHANCE THAT ANY LIBERAL CAN STAY ON TOPIC?
And the last time you addressed your own topic—Evil Taxes—was when?

Your use of a legal technicality to defend/excuse/condone Jefferson`s slaveowning was here. Hope that helps.

Since you did all that screaming about it: Where did I say you defended slavery?

What I said and say again now, is that you and others are relying on petty legalisms to avoid condemning the writer of noble and high principle for being as base and selfish as anyone else. If you can do it for him, you`ll do it for others, as long as you think the `others` are like you. Heaven defend a diddling hockey coach, because cons won`t, no matter what the laws say. They`d much rather talk tax avoidance than principles, and worship a far-off hero than ask heroics—like treating all as equals, or demanding fair laws—from themselves.

And so we`ll never live in a world where those truths actually apply, no matter how self-evident.
 

Aardvark154

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Using a position of authority to have sex with someone in your care and under your power is considered sexual assault, and was proscribed then under all sorts of laws.
As you should know I am no fan of Thomas Jefferson. However, as I've posted about before, the Sally Hemmings situation is very complex. For instance that she and Martha Jefferson (née Wayles) were sisters of 3/4 blood (comentators remarked about how much they looked alike).

Is any of this great and lofty - certainly NOT, however it is real and complex.
 

GlennQuagmire

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And the last time you addressed your own topic—Evil Taxes—was when?
My point exactly. I have to spend all my time slaying straw men.

Taxes can't be evil. The men levying the taxes might be.

For the record, I am not against taxes being levied to support constitutionally allowable expenditures.
 

oldjones

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Aug 18, 2001
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Like chasing down and returning runaway slaves to their owners.

Just to prove you aren't as cheap as I am, don't you think TJ deserves to be accurately quoted in the OP? Using '2' instead of 'to' in a quote you want taken seriously suggests that you yourself don't.
 

onthebottom

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Well bottie, it looks like you blew all your political capital on this thread.
Time for you.....or one of your alternative handles to come up with another inane thread like this one!

LMFAO!!!!!!!........:p
I've only ever had one handle... I'm sure Fred could confirm that for you as I think he'd ban anyone caught with more than one.

OTB
 

GlennQuagmire

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Feb 28, 2006
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Like chasing down and returning runaway slaves to their owners.

Just to prove you aren't as cheap as I am, don't you think TJ deserves to be accurately quoted in the OP? Using '2' instead of 'to' in a quote you want taken seriously suggests that you yourself don't.
I already posted this. but in case you missed it, I copied and pasted the quote without careful proof. This isn't a doctoral dissertation.
 

oldjones

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Aug 18, 2001
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As you should know I am no fan of Thomas Jefferson. However, as I've posted about before, the Sally Hemmings situation is very complex. For instance that she and Martha Jefferson (née Wayles) were sisters of 3/4 blood (comentators remarked about how much they looked alike).

Is any of this great and lofty - certainly NOT, however it is real and complex.
Sure is, and that's why we have whole machineries of law, enforcement and judging to figure the details of any particular case out to the sometimes bitter end. None of them seem to last very long, they always need tinkering, and on top of that there ain't no 'counting for love.

One of the big reasons we tinker is that there are truths each of us believes to be self-evident, but the wording's always problematic. Which is why we revile those who take their lawful refuge behind some fungible bit of grammar or unforseen condition. We know the truth. The truth was that carnal congress with slaves was disapproved, censured and legislated against, even in slaveowning America, even if it was no more effective than legislating against toking around the BBQ. The reasons were many: coerced sex has always been sanctioned, miscegenation was prohibitted, marriages were as well, and bastardy could be criminal. Like owning people in the first place, the relationship with Hemmings was something we would have expected a man of Jefferson's moral leadership and public utterances to abjure.

Excusing him on technicalities of law is fine if we're trying to account for why he did not: he and his neighbours were just people like us. Which is why he continued in their high regard as long as he kept his concubine and her slave offspring secret. No one posting on TERB should be any stranger to that sort of two-faced masking.

But when we're supposedly being launched omn some high-minded debate inspired by his far-seeing insight, then his short-sightedness is indeed relevant. The more so when we can see it from afar and still choose to deny and ignore it.
 

oldjones

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Aug 18, 2001
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I already posted this. but in case you missed it, I copied and pasted the quote without careful proof. This isn't a doctoral dissertation.
Or proofreading. Which doesn't 'splain why you haven't fixed it, but just posted 2 defences of it. No more complaints about off-topic time-wasting, OK.

But to get On topic: So it would be entirely proper to tax the citizenry for the Constitutionally valid purpose of apprehending fugitive slaves and returning them to their owners in slave states?

That's rather a long way from TJ's quoted description of the ideal state, isn't it? As a poor farmer w/o slaves, why should I pay such taxes? So a slave-operated farmer can undercut my prices for wheat at my expense? Just when does the part about not robbing the labourers of their bread kick in under your scheme, where every tax is OK if it's constitutional?

It's your topic: What's your thesis?
 

GlennQuagmire

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And the last time you addressed your own topic—Evil Taxes—was when?

Your use of a legal technicality to defend/excuse/condone Jefferson`s slaveowning was here. Hope that helps.

Since you did all that screaming about it: Where did I say you defended slavery?

What I said and say again now, is that you and others are relying on petty legalisms to avoid condemning the writer of noble and high principle for being as base and selfish as anyone else. If you can do it for him, you`ll do it for others, as long as you think the `others` are like you. Heaven defend a diddling hockey coach, because cons won`t, no matter what the laws say. They`d much rather talk tax avoidance than principles, and worship a far-off hero than ask heroics—like treating all as equals, or demanding fair laws—from themselves.

And so we`ll never live in a world where those truths actually apply, no matter how self-evident.
No where in your linked material do I approve of slavery. You falsely attributed this quote to me -`Slave owning is OK as long as the law says so`. This is where you say I defended slavery. Do you acknowledge that you are responsible for this false quote? Please just try to answer this question and this question alone and then we can move on.
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
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Good for you, GC. Onwards. When you're the first to figure out how to correct a goofed up title, be sure to share your discovery.
 
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