The final garbage strike thread

[babyfinsta]

Do you understand now? This End Rate wage is the platform for the next contract and the driver for the eventual pension. Unions even at the local level tend to be run be senior members who have their focus on the wages of 50 year olds and the pension thereafter.

basically u are saying strikes are a series of inflows and ouflows on a timeline with outflows being lost wages evry time a union strikes for a new contract and inflows being the addn increase over what a city offers pre-strike. this in hopes of getting a higher end salary when one retires (only beneficial for lifers and not someone working for <25yrs or whatever factor omers uses) even than the net increase in retirement payout would be less than if u invested the lost income due to strike along the way.
so if u dont plan on being at city hall for 30 yrs u are screwed even more.

 

[Mrbig1949]

If one side takes an extremely hard line....

It's been awhile since I took a labour relations course in university, but I'm not sure if the city can hire replacement workers because they're effectively a union shop and using non-unionized workers would be subject to legal grievances and injunctions or work stoppages.

Also, I'm not sure that one side can absolutely stick to their original position because it wouldn't be bargaining in good faith which is a requirement set out in the labour relations act.

Mind you to me, if management can't afford to pay more and can argue that point very reasonably, repeating that same argument over and over again shouldn't be considered bargaining in bad faith.

Does 'bargaining in good faith' imply always coming to a compromise, even when one side has a fair and reasonable position?

The other side will start demanding mediation, arbitration, fact finders blah blah. They will look like the reasonable party and people will begin to side with the reasonable party thus they win the propaganda war. The cops have been making a killing from arbitration way more than CUPE and nobody seems to care because by the time anybody in the public is aware, the deal is done.

Taking very serious hard line positions has serious consequences that all sides understand. The use of scabs for instance would mobilize the entire union movement to mass picketing and probably lead to violence as it almost always does. It is "outside the expected norms" as to how the game is played. Violence like that gives the whole city a black eye. The hotel and restaurant people would start going baat shit about tourism etc. You know how it goes. Investment decisions go against Toronto and Ontario because investment likes stability, peace and most of all predictability.

 

[train]

If you attend the CUPE ratification meeting not one worker will get up and say with a calculator in one hand, I just did a calculation and for 2009 I lost money compared to what I would have made if there was no strike. This is not because of intimidation, it is because nobody cares about this.

So what you are saying is that they lose thousands of dollars over the life of the contract but buy all the union bullshit that this was a good thing ? And here you have been lying to us all along saying the union was out to protect the worker. Sad very sad. Unions exploiting workers for dues, sickening.

That is why some will "trade off" the sick days of new members. Sad but true.

Some ? You mean most, if they ratify.

 

[buckwheat1]

Dues

So what you are saying is that they lose thousands of dollars over the life of the contract but buy all the union bullshit that this was a good thing ? And here you have been lying to us all along saying the union was out to protect the worker. Sad very sad. Unions exploiting workers for dues, sickening.



Some ? You mean most, if they ratify.

They are voted on by the memebership at a annual meeting, CUPE membes will voye to increase/decrease or hold the lines on their dues.

 

[Mia.Colpa]

If any of you have the time, the special meeting of councillors is on TV right now as I write this on Rogers channel. Take a look at how the animals act in that zoo chamber. It already started with some fireworks when Miller was interupted when he started to speak by the speaker, took the wind out of his sales. Councillors all talking and being rude during voting process, I never had any respect for these politicians.

 

[buckwheat1]

vote

If any of you have the time, the special meeting of councillors is on TV right now as I write this on Rogers channel. Take a look at how the animals act in that zoo chamber. It already started with some fireworks when Miller was interupted when he started to speak by the speaker, took the wind out of his sales. Councillors all talking and being rude during voting process, I never had any respect for these politicians.

looking for 51%

 

[train]

They are voted on by the memebership at a annual meeting, CUPE membes will voye to increase/decrease or hold the lines on their dues.

There are no dues while on strike I hope.

So let me see if we have this right. The union collects $1,000 to $2,000 thousand per year from each employee. The dues are what? 2% of your pay? $4 million to $8 million a year from the workers of the locals that were on strike. Between $16 and $32 million over the life of this contract tax free. During the strike they spent maybe $4 to $5 million on strike pay etc (probably less because I think you have to picket to get it and not everyone did).

Tax free profit margin for the Head Office of between $11 and $27 million ....sweet. Even at the low end of the estimate certainly enough to throw a couple hundred grand in campaign contributions to buy the next City Council too.

Hella of a gig isn't it.

 

[blackrock13]

If any of you have the time, the special meeting of councillors is on TV right now as I write this on Rogers channel. Take a look at how the animals act in that zoo chamber. It already started with some fireworks when Miller was interupted when he started to speak by the speaker, took the wind out of his sales. Councillors all talking and being rude during voting process, I never had any respect for these politicians.

I'm there and the first thing I see is that it's not in camera as they said it would be( smart move) and there are many empty councilor seats, approx 12, including my favorite buffoon Harold Mosca. It's going be like watching paint dry but I'm in. Thanks MC.

 

[Mrbig1949]

they can do the math

So what you are saying is that they lose thousands of dollars over the life of the contract but buy all the union bullshit that this was a good thing ? And here you have been lying to us all along saying the union was out to protect the worker. Sad very sad. Unions exploiting workers for dues, sickening.



Some ? You mean most, if they ratify.

they are way ahead with the union

 

[Mia.Colpa]

How many councillors missing?

There are 44 city councillors and the mayor as follows. Do any of you know who's missing???? If there are 12 missing, that means there are 32 in attendance and they then need 17 yes votes to pass. Are there 17 pro Miller councillors present?

David Miller, City of Toronto Mayor
Paul Ainslie Ward 43 Scarborough East
Mark GrimesWard 6 Etobicoke-Lakeshore
Frances Nunziata Ward 11 York South-Weston
Brian Ashto Ward 36 Scarborough Southwest
Suzan Hall Ward 1 Etobicoke North
Case Ootes Ward 29 Toronto-Danforth
Maria Augimeri Ward 9 York Centre
A. A. Heaps Ward 35 Scraborough Southwest
Cesar Palacio Ward 17 Davenport
Sandra Bussin Ward 32 Beaches-East York
Doug Holyday Ward 3 Etobicoke Centre
Joe Pantalone Ward 19 Trinity-Spadina
Shelley Carroll Ward 33 Don Valley East
Cliff Jenkins Ward 25 Don Valley West
John Parker Ward 26 Don Valley West
Raymond Cho Ward 42 Scarborough-Rouge River
Norm Kelly Ward 40 Scarborough Agincourt
Gord Perks Ward 14 Parkdale-High Park
Janet Davis Ward 31 Beaches-East York
Chin Lee Ward 41 Scarborough-Rouge River
Anthony Perruzza Ward 8 York West
Glenn De Baeremaeker Ward 38 Scarborough Centre
Gloria Lindsay Luby Ward 4 Etobicoke Centre
Kyle Rae Ward 27 Toronto Centre-Rosedale
Mike Del Grande Ward 39 Scarborough-Agincourt
Giorgio Mammoliti Ward 7 York West
Bill Saundercook Ward 13 Parkdale-High Park
Frank Di Giorgio Ward 12 York South-Weston
Pam McConnell Ward 28 Toronto Centre-Rosedale
David Shiner Ward 24 Willowdale
Mike Feldman Ward 10 York Centre
Joe Mihevc Ward 21 St. Paul's
Karen Stintz Ward 16 Eglinton-Lawrence
John Filion Ward 23 Willowdale
Peter Milczyn Ward 5 Etobicoke-Lakeshore
Michael Thompson Ward 37 Scarborough Centre
Paula Fletcher Ward 30 Toronto-Danforth
Denzil Minnan-Wong Ward 34 Don Valley East
Adam Vaughan Ward 20 Trinity-Spadina
Rob Ford Ward 2 Etobicoke North
Ron Moeser Ward 44 Scarborough East
Michael Walker Ward 22 St. Paul's
Adam Giambrone Ward 18 Davenport
Howard Moscoe Ward 15 Eglinton-Lawrence

I noticed there are at least 3 or 4 councillors that declared a conflict of interest because a close family member is a member of CUPE 79, including Moscoe and that's why he didn't attend the meeting due to legal advice.

 

[blackrock13]

The status quo of banking sick days to retirement (for existing workers only) is a gain to the union because the city wanted to cut it.

Therefore, there's a net gain to the union.

Even the media says taxpayers lose.

So let me see, I'm carrying a bucket of water back to my home, but a hole in the bucket has me losing half the water on route. So I have a net gain how and this should make me happy because? I have to work twice as long to carry to needed water. You got me.

The media tends to talk in dramatic fashion. Remember how many times they reports fearing the Swine epidemic, West Nile terror, and SARS. Which media. I watch/read alot and must have missed those reports.

 

[blackrock13]

Watching grass grow is really more entertaining but I have learn a few things. It's clear that the really interesting stuff will happen behind closed doors.

 

[someone]

There are 44 city councillors and the mayor as follows. Do any of you know who's missing???? If there are 12 missing, that means there are 32 in attendance and they then need 17 yes votes to pass. Are there 17 pro Miller councillors present?

David Miller, City of Toronto Mayor
Paul Ainslie Ward 43 Scarborough East
Mark GrimesWard 6 Etobicoke-Lakeshore
Frances Nunziata Ward 11 York South-Weston
Brian Ashto Ward 36 Scarborough Southwest
Suzan Hall Ward 1 Etobicoke North
Case Ootes Ward 29 Toronto-Danforth
Maria Augimeri Ward 9 York Centre
A. A. Heaps Ward 35 Scraborough Southwest
Cesar Palacio Ward 17 Davenport
Sandra Bussin Ward 32 Beaches-East York
Doug Holyday Ward 3 Etobicoke Centre
Joe Pantalone Ward 19 Trinity-Spadina
Shelley Carroll Ward 33 Don Valley East
Cliff Jenkins Ward 25 Don Valley West
John Parker Ward 26 Don Valley West
Raymond Cho Ward 42 Scarborough-Rouge River
Norm Kelly Ward 40 Scarborough Agincourt
Gord Perks Ward 14 Parkdale-High Park
Janet Davis Ward 31 Beaches-East York
Chin Lee Ward 41 Scarborough-Rouge River
Anthony Perruzza Ward 8 York West
Glenn De Baeremaeker Ward 38 Scarborough Centre
Gloria Lindsay Luby Ward 4 Etobicoke Centre
Kyle Rae Ward 27 Toronto Centre-Rosedale
Mike Del Grande Ward 39 Scarborough-Agincourt
Giorgio Mammoliti Ward 7 York West
Bill Saundercook Ward 13 Parkdale-High Park
Frank Di Giorgio Ward 12 York South-Weston
Pam McConnell Ward 28 Toronto Centre-Rosedale
David Shiner Ward 24 Willowdale
Mike Feldman Ward 10 York Centre
Joe Mihevc Ward 21 St. Paul's
Karen Stintz Ward 16 Eglinton-Lawrence
John Filion Ward 23 Willowdale
Peter Milczyn Ward 5 Etobicoke-Lakeshore
Michael Thompson Ward 37 Scarborough Centre
Paula Fletcher Ward 30 Toronto-Danforth
Denzil Minnan-Wong Ward 34 Don Valley East
Adam Vaughan Ward 20 Trinity-Spadina
Rob Ford Ward 2 Etobicoke North
Ron Moeser Ward 44 Scarborough East
Michael Walker Ward 22 St. Paul's
Adam Giambrone Ward 18 Davenport
Howard Moscoe Ward 15 Eglinton-Lawrence

I noticed there are at least 3 or 4 councillors that declared a conflict of interest because a close family member is a member of CUPE 79, including Moscoe and that's why he didn't attend the meeting due to legal advice.

This might help you determine this: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/...trike-how-council-may-vote-on-the-strike.aspx

At least one of the "conficts of interest" was going to vote against the deal. He would hardly have been voting to help is family member.

 

[Mrbig1949]

This is all fully explained, union members are not stupid

So what you are saying is that they lose thousands of dollars over the life of the contract but buy all the union bullshit that this was a good thing ? And here you have been lying to us all along saying the union was out to protect the worker. Sad very sad. Unions exploiting workers for dues, sickening.



Some ? You mean most, if they ratify.

Every position is examined debated and voted on. It is condesending to assume this is not done with informed consent.

 

[blackrock13]

Every position is examined debated and voted on. It is condesending to assume this is not done with informed consent.

Secret ballot of course. Some how I don't think so. Hands are counted, dissenters are noted, and 'talked to' later.

 

[Mrbig1949]

Not in any unions I have ever been in...

Secret ballot of course. Some how I don't think so. Hands are counted, dissenters are noted, and 'talked to' later.

Including the modern Teamsters.

 

[blackrock13]

Including the modern Teamsters.

So what your saying is that all unions use show of hands, note dissenters and 're-educate as needed'.

Go figure. Democracy at it's best.

 

[Mrbig1949]

Can you read?

So what your saying is that all unions use show of hands, note dissenters and 're-educate as needed'.

Go figure. Democracy at it's best.

I was not only active in 4 unions but in the Ontario Federation of Labour, the Labour Council in Toronto and the Canadian Labour Congress.

Unions use secret ballots for all important decisions such as contract ratifications, strike votes, internal elections.....

 

[blackrock13]

Good to know.

Now we can wonder if after having read the stuff or be read the stuff do they understand it. If the material is written the way Ferguson talks, there's little chance of a full comprehension by all.

 

[blackrock13]

Final vote in 21/17 both contracts ratified.

OH BOY!!!

Hold it, confusion reigns.

FINAL!