The Czechs outplayed Canada.....

[Ranger68]

From TSN:

Canada was outworked, outplayed for long stretches and outshot 40-24

``We were fortunate to survive,'' said coach Pat Quinn. ``The Czechs probably out-chanced us by a wide margin.

``We escaped, is the best way to put it.''

Quinn was dismayed at his team's effort.

Gretzky noted that back in 1998 at the Winter Olympics in Nagano, Canada was the better team in the semifinals against the Czech Republic, only to lose in the famous shoot-out. And while Gretzky admitted that the Czechs were the better team on Saturday night and deserved a better fate, what comes around goes around.

Hey, dude, if you *really* want to get into this again, fine. I've dealt with ALL of this before, but what the hey.

Again, replace "outplayed" with "outshot" and you'll be bang on.

Even taking Quinn's statement at face value, half of his first sentence said "we were outchanced". Again, the object of the game isn't to outchance your opponents, but to outplay them.

As I've explained *at length* in this thread, and others - coaches coach. Quinn doesn't have *jack shit* to say to Luongo about the way he played. He doesn't sit down with him and analyze his performance. He doesn't run drills for him. In essence, HE HAS NO FRICKING IDEA HOW TO HELP HIS GOALTENDER PLAY BETTER. Period.

Quinn coaches the skaters. When Quinn talks about "the team" and "the team being outplayed", he means *the skaters*. Yes, the skaters were outplayed, for the most part. They were outhustled and outshot - and being outshot is a bad thing, when the primary method of generating offense is to accumulate shots, and the primary method (of the skaters) in generating defense is to prevent shots.

When a team is outshot, it reflects very poorly on the performance of the skaters.

Factoring in goaltending, Canada won. Canada deserved to win. To say we were lucky - that's just coach-speak. OF COURSE we were lucky. We were lucky every time we won. Every team is lucky every time they win. That's the nature of sports.

Now, to overcome a shot-deficit - that is, to overcome your skaters being "outplayed", you'll need that last player - the goaltender - to outplay the other team's goaltender. This is the last piece of the puzzle - the last team component you've got to try to win the game - to allow your team to score enough to win - to outplay your opponents.

Do you need raw luck? Is that all goaltending is? When Roger Clemens pitches a two-hit shutout and the Astros win 2-0, despite the fact that Houston commits four errors and gets thrown out twice on the bases, and generally looks like a double-A team - were they lucky? Were they lucky because they had Clemens going? In a sense, they were lucky that Clemens had a good game - but that's not really raw luck, is it? I mean, Clemens has LOTS of good games. The Astros COUNT on it.

Was Canada "lucky" that Luongo had a good game? Considering the circumstances, that may very well be the case. Nevertheless, he did - and to attribute the win to raw luck, although it may be a weapon the coach and managers can use to motivate their team, isn't really accurate.

Canada outgoaltended the Czechs, allowing them to outscore and thereby outplay them.

Edit for clarification: This is NOT to say (and I've never said anything like this) that a team, even with a good goaltender, should expect to win every time they're outshot and outhustled and outchanced. The Canadian skaters need to improve their game against the Finns if they want to improve our odds of winning. Such a poor performance looks very bad - as Quinn and Gretz pointed out. For an elimination game to go into overtime is rolling the dice. Yep, they were lucky. LUCKY THAT the best players on the ice were Canadian - Luongo and Lecavalier. It may easily have gone the other way, and that would have been a real shame.

 

[Ranger68]

Ranger your one funny dude. Such an antagonist. Heres one i'll say black, and you'll say.............?

Blacker?

Anyone who "really" thinks Canada outplayed the Czechs needs their head examined.

Wow. What an intelligent comeback. I don't know what to say.
LOL

The only thing Canada did well was capitalize on their scoring chances. Other than that the Czechs were the better team..... by far. --- Kev

LOL I'll take the team that capitalized on their scoring chances EVERY TIME!
LOL ....
Too funny.
Yeah, other than *SCORING MORE GOALS* the Czechs were the better team - by far.
ROTLMFAO .......
Mercy ......

 

[Ranger68]

Your not an idiot Ranger your an antagonist.

If we all agreed on everything life would be boring. --- Kev

I'm not actually. Reread the thread and tell me who keeps bringing this up.

.......

That's right. Not me. If other guys want to talk trash, let 'em. I'll just keep on posting reasoned arguments and they'll keep posting "you're an idiot" or "I'll just believe "the experts" " or "you need your head examined". You know, witty retorts like that.

Dude, I'll argue reasonably with anyone who wants to. If someone wants to talk smack, I'll smack 'em back.

 

[n_v]

Again, the object of the game isn't to outchance your opponents, but to outplay them.

WRONG!!!!!!!! The object is to outscore!!!!

 

[Ranger68]

I'll believe the truth.
Thanks.

And that is that Canada outplayed the Czechs, just like the Leafs outplayed Ottawa.
LOL

 

[plyrs99]

you know ranger, quit the garbage, and just admit it, the canadians got through this with lady luck shining on them. i dont know if you've ever played the game before, (if you have, you sure don't get it) but it is possible to be outplayed, and still win, every now and then.

as for luongo, sure he played great when he needed to, but he also let in 2 goals that had he had stopped them, he wouldnt have had to come up with big saves to keep them in the game. as well, if vokoun doesnt screw up draper's 3rd period goal, we arent having this conversation either.

they won, but they had lady luck with them. as for your theory on being outskated, not outplayed???? are you completely high? last time i checked, the goalie is part of the team. did luongo outplay vokoun, nope. both had great moments, both let in some bad ones (vokoun one, luongo two). canada just scored one more, that simple.

as for your leaf-senator talk, i wasnt here for that, but i will tell you this, ottawa clearly was a better team, save for one fact, lalime was horrible, and belfour was awesome. you ever watch roy in '93, with the habs playoff run? he was the lone reason they won that year. habs were outplayed in most series, handily, save for patrick's goaltending. having played the game, i will tell you that i dont care how great your team is, if the other goalie stands on his head, you are not going to win, it just is that way sometimes.

i await more of your know-it-all retorts. when you are wrong, just say it.

Plyrs99

 

[revolver]

Interesting discussion. My thoughts are that this was Canada's first real competition of the series and they squeaked out a win. They did that because they took better advantage of their opportunities. Both teams had strectches where they outplayed their opponents, probably an advantage to the czechs in that area. It must have been deflating for Canada to be scored on so quickly after they took the lead on a couple of occasions. And that probably inspired the czechs even more. Luongo let in some easy goals or we might have seen a big advantage for Canada. I think the result might have been different if Brodeur had been healthy and in net. A goaltender like him, just being there, gives a team of confidence boost and that can make all the difference. Lets hope he is ready to play on Tuesday.

 

[Ranger68]

you know ranger, quit the garbage, and just admit it, the canadians got through this with lady luck shining on them. i dont know if you've ever played the game before, (if you have, you sure don't get it) but it is possible to be outplayed, and still win, every now and then.
<snip>

Plyrs99

1. So the Czechs WOULDN'T have been lucky to win the game? When everyone thought they were going to lose? Please. The Czechs were LUCKY our skaters played so badly and they stayed in the game so long. Hey, YOU can spin, so can I.

2. As I've argued many times, it's very rare for a TEAM to be outplayed and win. The Canadians weren't outplayed, unless you ignore the obviously STUNNINGLY GOOD effort of one of their players - the goalie. I don't know how much hockey YOU'VE played, or just what the fuck that has to do with anything. But, hey, when you've got nothing to say, attack the credibility of who you're arguing with. All the hockey I've ever seen and played, well the goalie was a pretty damn important part of *the team*. I guess you just play a different game than me.

3. I've already said this - yeah, Luongo let in two soft goals. And still stopped almost 40. If he'd made *average* plays on those two shots, we wouldn't be having this conversation. (Again, you can spin, so can I.)

4. Did Luongo outplay Vokoun?! You answer NO!??!?! LOL .... Now *your* perspective is out of touch with the rest of the hockey community, every commentator, every fan, and everyone who's arguing with ME! LOL Not that that means too much, but ..... Tell me, in what way did Luongo NOT play better in net?!?!

5. Yep. Canada scored one more, on twenty fewer shots. That's our goalie outplaying their's. Period. And that's how we outplayed them.

6. You summarize my whole argument in one sentence - "having played the game, i will tell you that i dont care how great your team is, if the other goalie stands on his head, you are not going to win". Right - the goalie isn't part of the team. "Sometimes, your whole team sucks, but your goalie bails you out." That's what you're saying. Because, the goalie isn't part of the team, right? Your team *demolishes* their's, but their goalie saved them. When you win because of goaltending, you were lucky.

This is the whole point of what I'm talking about - when all this bullshit comes out after a team is outshot but wins - you ALWAYS hear that a team is lucky, that they were outplayed - EVERY TIME A TEAM IS OUTSHOT BADLY. The implication is that the team didn't win by the application of hockey skill - goaltending doesn't count. Right? Goaltending is "lucky". You can't count on it. .... It's bullshit.

Again, just replace every instance of "outplay" with "outshot" in your whole post above, and you'll see that I'm right. When you say "outplayed", you mean "outshot". Try it.

The corollary would be to say that a team that outshoots its opponent 40-20 and wins 7-5 got lucky - hell, their goaltender let in five and played like shit - they were lucky to score seven goals - they got lucky. But, you don't hear that. Why? (Actually, you almost always hear that "the team" played great - again, ignoring the obviously poor play of the most important guy on the ice - the goalie.) Why don't you hear that? Because it's bullshit, too. The game is won and lost by all components of a team. When you say *a team* is outplayed, you're talking about the WHOLE team, right? Actually, when you hear this, most of the time, you're not - you're talking about the skaters.

Both offense and defense factor into the final determination of score - of who outplayed whom.

And the final, bitter pill is that both Toronto and the Canadians outplayed their opponents in the series we're talking about. Why? Goaltending. That's not luck - that's skill.

 

[Don]

maaaaaaaaaaan! i knew starting this thread was a bad idea....

 

[RemyMartin]

the Chechs outplay Canada most of the game, but they just don't wanna win the game because they want to go home earlier. They were doing that intentionally.

 

[shack]

Ranger, I give you credit for being incredibly patient and trying to spell out this rather basic and simple concept innumerable times.

I can think of 2 scenarios where a team can be outplayed but still win.

1)A ref makes enough bad calls against the better team to ultimately be the one who decides the game, not the players.

2)Two or three totally, incredibly flukey goals caused by ridiculous bounces that no goalie would have any way of stopping.

The former is obviously much more likely than the latter. Just check any game that Kerry (Centre of Attention) Fraser refs.

Aside from those, I can't think of too many more cases where your rule of thumb doesn't apply.

 

[slademan]

I have never seen a Canadian Team out played so badly, they were beaten to every puck, they lost every battle in the corners. But like all great Canadian Teams, they found a way to win. It's a good thing they got there bad game out of the way. Cause they sure as hell won't play like that again tonight.

 

[Goober Mcfly]

maaaaaaaaaaan! i knew starting this thread was a bad idea....

Way to go, Don.

*shakes head*

 

[t8rs]

The Czechs were outgeneralmanaged by the Canadians.

Just pointing out the ridiculousness of this debate.

 

[Ranger68]

Ranger, I give you credit for being incredibly patient and trying to spell out this rather basic and simple concept innumerable times.

I can think of 2 scenarios where a team can be outplayed but still win.

1)A ref makes enough bad calls against the better team to ultimately be the one who decides the game, not the players.

2)Two or three totally, incredibly flukey goals caused by ridiculous bounces that no goalie would have any way of stopping.

The former is obviously much more likely than the latter. Just check any game that Kerry (Centre of Attention) Fraser refs.

Aside from those, I can't think of too many more cases where your rule of thumb doesn't apply.

Amen to that.

And with that, I bid you all adieu.