The complexities of Sudan

toguy5252

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Jun 22, 2009
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I didn't say no one. Zionists do believe in supporting Israel. But the majority of Americans are not Zionists. If they were, there would be no need for the Israel lobby.
No your point was that any American politician who supports Israel has been bought and paid for by lobbyists.
 

toguy5252

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2009
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None of the other lobbies are as powerful as the Israeli lobby. And yes to survive in Washington you have to get in bed with the Israeli lobby even if you believe otherwise. Even Carter talked about this a while ago.

That is absurd and merely reinforces the antisemtic trope that American politicians have been bought and paid for by lobbyists.
 

toguy5252

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Jun 22, 2009
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They have been. This isn't news. As Owen Wilson would say, "You'd be crazy as a road lizard" if you think otherwise.
And that is why regrettably although I am generally optimistic that a 3 state solution is achievable and will be achieved that mind set will insure that it never happens. But you keep selling the fantasy of the river to the sea and get back to me in 50 years when Israel will be continuing to thrive and the people you claim to care about will remain hostages to Hamas and people like you who continue to promote the fantasy. Sad.
 

Leimonis

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Feb 28, 2020
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And that is why regrettably although I am generally optimistic that a 3 state solution is achievable and will be achieved that mind set will insure that it never happens. But you keep selling the fantasy of the river to the sea and get back to me in 50 years when Israel will be continuing to thrive and the people you claim to care about will remain hostages to Hamas and people like you who continue to promote the fantasy. Sad.
Just imagine giving them with their “from river to sea” mentality a country into which they can import weapons and which can enter into treaties with Iran and others.
Israelis would be insane to allow that. Including Israeli arabs.
 

toguy5252

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Jun 22, 2009
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Why do you always say "Sad" when you actually dont feel sad and completely support disenfranchising, and violently dispossessing the Palestinians?

I dont know when this will happen, but the only thing I see happening is what happened to the indigeneous peoples here in Canada and the US. I think inevitably Palestinians will end up under Israeli rule as full citizens at some point in the future. And yes, they will be the majority demographic. In that way, from the river to the sea, the Palestinians will eventually be free - although not free of the Jews, which is not the message of that slogan either. That slogan is actually the Likud party's slogan and it is in their charter, hijacked by pro-Palestinian protestors. So you'd have to ask your Likud party buddies why they came up with that slogan. Given their actions in Gaza, I would venture to settle on the very reasonable interpretation of the intent to genocide the Palestinians.

A 2 state solution although good on paper, is practically not possible at this time. Both a 2 state and a 1 state solution involves Israel losing or giving up something. Why would they do that right now? They won't. They won't until they slowly swallow up every existing Palestinian land, under the pretext of "security". So a lot more October 7s need to happen, a lot more Israelis and more importantly Palestinians will die in the future, before what I said happens. Unless of course someone suddenly grows a heart and a brain in Israel and does something radically different. But don't count on it.
Get back to me in 50 years.

and yes it is sad that the fantasy you are selling has kept the Palestinians from building a country and a future.
 

toguy5252

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Jun 22, 2009
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Just imagine giving them with their “from river to sea” mentality a country into which they can import weapons and which can enter into treaties with Iran and others.
Israelis would be insane to allow that. Including Israeli arabs.
that is fueled by the fantasy they have been selling. Instead of a viable country living in peace they have great tunnels and many many people living in refugee camps . But they keep trying to sell that fantasy.
 

toguy5252

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Jun 22, 2009
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However long that takes, it is the inevitable conclusion of what Israel has started. They have only themselves to blame for it and Israel as a "Jewish" state wont last. Just like it did not last any time in history. There is a reason why they eventually got run over, every single time. The culture promotes isolation and alienates people. I think this time around, they wont get invaded, but they will get demographically replaced. You need to zoom out and look at it 200 or 300 years from now. Also the Israeli built the tunnels. Ehud Barak revealed that in his interview on CNN.
Zzzzzz. Enjoy the tunnels in the meantime.
 

toguy5252

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Jun 22, 2009
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Genocide supporters of course sleep well while Palestinians are being slaughtered.
I am really not sure how you sleep. Your fantasy had kept people who only want a better life in refugee camps and in Gaza and the WB where leaders steal all the money and live like kings while the people suffer. Eve noe they are in the tunnels with food etc while your people suffer. You should be very proud,
 

toguy5252

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Jun 22, 2009
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You're clutching at straws. Most American politicians, not all. And it's not just out of greed. It's also fear. Fear of AIPAC funding their opponents.
you statement again repeats the antisemitic trope about Jewish influence. You simply ignore the possibility that American politicians think it is a good think for for Israel, the region and the world to route out Hamas
 
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toguy5252

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Jun 22, 2009
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As I said, a situation foisted upon these people by Israel via 75 years of oppression. You talk about people suffering without food, while cheering on the Israelis who have cut off supply to food, electricity and water. Therein lies your duplicity. Oppressed societies breed violence and corruption. Canada was oppressive, violent, corrupt and a shit hole at one point too. As the oppression reduced, so did everything else.
Your right. Just like the hundred of thousands of Jews who were expelled from Arab countries now live viny in squalor in refugee camps in Canada the US and elsewhere plotting their return to Iraq, Syria etc. if only they could be accepted into the countries and build a life for themselves and their children.
 

mandrill

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Aug 23, 2001
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They left their countries to move to Israel because the Israeli govt. encouraged it. Any backlash they faced back home was due to the ethnic cleansing, the nakba in 1948. The pull factors played the primary role in Jewish emigration from Arab states. Ethnic cleansing, genocide and violence perpetrated by the Israeli state on the other hand was the primary reason Palestinians became refugees.
 

mandrill

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Aug 23, 2001
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They left their countries to move to Israel because the Israeli govt. encouraged it. Any backlash they faced back home was due to the ethnic cleansing, the nakba in 1948. The pull factors played the primary role in Jewish emigration from Arab states. Ethnic cleansing, genocide and violence perpetrated by the Israeli state on the other hand was the primary reason Palestinians became refugees.
 

toguy5252

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2009
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They left their countries to move to Israel because the Israeli govt. encouraged it. Any backlash they faced back home was due to the ethnic cleansing, the nakba in 1948. The pull factors played the primary role in Jewish emigration from Arab states. Ethnic cleansing, genocide and violence perpetrated by the Israeli state on the other hand was the primary reason Palestinians became refugees.
I have no idea why I continue to engage when you simply rewrite history when the real history is inconvenient. I am done.
 

shack

Nitpicker Extraordinaire
Oct 2, 2001
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You keep moving those goal posts, shack.
Not in the slightest. You keep yelling genocide and I keep saying the UN has not passed any resolutions stating that. Then you divert by attempting to move the goalposts.

Show us the UN resolution stating that Israel has committed genocide.
 

shack

Nitpicker Extraordinaire
Oct 2, 2001
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Toronto

shack

Nitpicker Extraordinaire
Oct 2, 2001
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Toronto
Then what does Israel need such a powerful lobby for?
You keep asking the same question even after numerous adequate responses.

BTW, what is the proper amount of power a lobby is permitted before it is considered too powerful? What are the units of measure of power? Ergs? Kilowatt hours?
 

Frankfooter

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Apr 10, 2015
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keep up the good work. Get back to me in 50 years. And then 50 after that and so on. In the meantime keep building tunnels.
Typical.

Claim to support the two state solution then when its mentioned that means giving back all the land you stole say 'talk to me in 50 years'.
Zionism will be gone by then.

They will labelled a hate group soon enough.
 
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