Teachers to Boycott After School Programs

[frankcastle]

http://givingthefacts.blogspot.ca/2012/09/increasing-teacher-salaries-are-eating.html

this is a blog that cites stats can it shows that from 2005 to 2010 the amount spent on salaries as compared to the total education budget has remained fairly consistant.

In fact when you take the sum of the the percent change over those years it works out to zero. In other words teachers pay has increased but the amount of the education budget that it makes up has remained stable.

So John Larue, is this another one of your so called misquotes where you claim that teachers are eating up an increasing amount of the budget with their salaries?

 

[red]

Screwing over the kids?
Isn't that what the government is doing by trying to get the cheapest, not best, education for our kids?

so the current teachers are no good? ok lets replace em

 

[GG2]

Ontario teachers are the finest. Thanks for the timely article, Yahoo.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sidesho...t-text-book-no-pictures-201950042.html?_esi=1

Students required to buy art textbook with no pictures of art
..It sounds like an absurdist art project: A required text for an art class—containing no actual art images. But it's the reality at the Ontario College of Art and Design for students who enrolled in the course "Global Visual and Material Culture: Prehistory to 1800." The cost of such a worthless tome? A whopping 180 Canadian dollars (US $184.50).

The problem arose when the custom textbook ran into licensing agreements for pictures. This, for some reason, didn't cause educators to abandon the project, but instead publish it and make it required reading. As the blog BoingBoing pointed out, the art book "will not serve as any kind of lasting visual reference," sort of the point of those giant books on art.

The students launched an online petition to put a stop to the situation. It reads in part:

To ask us, the students--who mind you are already paying thousands of dollars--to pay 180.00$ plus tax, for a temporary textbook that does not have any pictures of the pieces we will be studying, is preposterous. Pictures are essential for studying art history, needless to say.

And giving us an extra online resource of the photos to go with the purchase of a textbook is really not enough.

The creation of this textbook is a waste of our money and should not have been printed until copyright permission was acquired.

The students ask that several options be considered: Dump the book for an older version. Put the book online along with images of the art being studied. Or refund the students at the end of the year the full amount of the picture-less art book.

Sounds like the college could learn a thing or two from its students.

...

 

[GameBoy27]

Ontario teachers are the finest. Thanks for the timely article, Yahoo.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sidesho...t-text-book-no-pictures-201950042.html?_esi=1

Students required to buy art textbook with no pictures of art
..It sounds like an absurdist art project: A required text for an art class—containing no actual art images. But it's the reality at the Ontario College of Art and Design for students who enrolled in the course "Global Visual and Material Culture: Prehistory to 1800." The cost of such a worthless tome? A whopping 180 Canadian dollars (US $184.50).

The problem arose when the custom textbook ran into licensing agreements for pictures. This, for some reason, didn't cause educators to abandon the project, but instead publish it and make it required reading. As the blog BoingBoing pointed out, the art book "will not serve as any kind of lasting visual reference," sort of the point of those giant books on art.

The students launched an online petition to put a stop to the situation. It reads in part:

To ask us, the students--who mind you are already paying thousands of dollars--to pay 180.00$ plus tax, for a temporary textbook that does not have any pictures of the pieces we will be studying, is preposterous. Pictures are essential for studying art history, needless to say.

And giving us an extra online resource of the photos to go with the purchase of a textbook is really not enough.

The creation of this textbook is a waste of our money and should not have been printed until copyright permission was acquired.

The students ask that several options be considered: Dump the book for an older version. Put the book online along with images of the art being studied. Or refund the students at the end of the year the full amount of the picture-less art book.

Sounds like the college could learn a thing or two from its students.

...

Pure genius!

 

[350shooter]

Hey Scarey, absolutely agree. we have our values all wrong. If everyone really thought back to when we were in school, you'll remember a great teacher who made a difference. I have zero issue with front line teacher salaries or work conditions.
The issue i have is with unions and school boards "protecting" incompetent teachers to keep their seniority, or moving them to other schools or administrative jobs.

Make the teachers complete annual reviews like we do in the private sector, and start weeding out the bad teachers. Believe it or not, I think all teachers will benefit as they will know that they are being recognized for good work, and the crap teachers leave the system.

 

[GG2]

Same pay for much higher quality teachers in private schools.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Based on what I've read, I think that smarter parents tend to have more money and send their smarter children to private schools to segregate their smarter children from the higher proportion of average and dumb children (academically speaking) in public schools. All things being equal, a low IQ kid put into a private school will fail terribly, and a high IQ kid put into a public school will excel.

 

[JohnLarue]

http://givingthefacts.blogspot.ca/2012/09/increasing-teacher-salaries-are-eating.html

this is a blog that cites stats can it shows that from 2005 to 2010 the amount spent on salaries as compared to the total education budget has remained fairly consistant.

In fact when you take the sum of the the percent change over those years it works out to zero. In other words teachers pay has increased but the amount of the education budget that it makes up has remained stable.

So John Larue, is this another one of your so called misquotes where you claim that teachers are eating up an increasing amount of the budget with their salaries?

Look, at 83K in salary & all the benefits there are billion of dollars in the education budget that could be
a) saved and used on health care
b) saved and used for the sole use of the students
c) saved and used to lower the growing debt
d) saved and returned to taxpayers through lower taxes

Any one of these ideas is better than the status quo

Misquotes ???

How about misrepresentation ?
So what is your occupation this week Frank?
Who will you pretend to be next month ?
As I pointed out earlier, once you lie and misrepresent yourself, you credibility is shot

Your words have no more weight than a lying whining deceiving bitch

 

[frankcastle]

Look, at 83K in salary & all the benefits there are billion of dollars in the education budget that could be
a) saved and used on health care
b) saved and used for the sole use of the students
c) saved and used to lower the growing debt
d) saved and returned to taxpayers through lower taxes

Any one of these ideas is better than the status quo

Misquotes ???

How about misrepresentation ?
So what is your occupation this week Frank?
Who will you pretend to be next month ?
As I pointed out earlier, once you lie and misrepresent yourself, you credibility is shot

Your words have no more weight than a lying whining deceiving bitch

Oh please so you refuse to say if you have kids and what you do. So why should I answer?

You're as much a deciever as when I pmed you and told you that I wasn't a teacher you chose to continue with it. Thus making you a liar as well.

I have as much credibility as a guy who chooses to remain anonymous. So who's the pot and who's the kettle.

As for the name calling. I'd actually be offended if a gave a shit about you. you're an ignorant rhetoric spouting self important asshole.

BTW find one quote of mine where I was whining.

As for being a bitch. I've got way more balls than you to admit that I was lying. I have nothing to gain from admitting it, other than I was hoping that we could return this to a civil discussion but you continue to make this personal..... demonstrating that your skils are weak as you are resorting to personal attacks rather than the issues.

The only way things are better in your scenario is no raised taxes. Selfish.

BTW freeze pay and take away gratuity how much savings do you think that will have immediately? Very little as gratuity only kicks in when they retire and cash in the sick days.

Also, take away the incentive to bank days what will the cost be when teachers choose to take 10 sick days?

I don't think it will amount to the saving that you hope for in the short term. You want to make a real dent in the deficit you need far more cash now than the above.

 

[KBear]

http://givingthefacts.blogspot.ca/2012/09/increasing-teacher-salaries-are-eating.html

this is a blog that cites stats can it shows that from 2005 to 2010 the amount spent on salaries as compared to the total education budget has remained fairly consistant.

The cleaners at TTC could make up the same chart to justify their pay, and would expect the chart would show about the same numbers.


Is this a teacher’s union type blog? Is this the best they can do to justify their pay, benefits and pension?

 

[FAST]

The union religion

You must be a drama teacher.

If the deal was so bad, why did the Catholic board come to an agreement? The vast majority of working people in the Province of Ontario have little sympathy for your fight. Unfortunately you've been spoiled for far too long and when it comes time to give up a little (and by a little I mean a small amount of what very few others have to begin with) you act like little babies.

Most people who have jobs realize that when times are tough and the company they work for is going through tough economic times, they may not get a raise that year. They may have their hours, bonuses, even benefits cut. That's the reality that most people deal with. Teachers and other union employees see it differently, it's called entitlement and when you don't get what you want, you act like a child who's just had his candy taken away. You need a time out!

The problem GameBoy is,...teachers have never experienced what the MAJORITY of workers live with as you have correctly described, or if they have,... conveniently forgotten.

The teachers here will NEVER acknowledge the cold hard facts of what none civil servants have to put up with.

The reason the Catholic board come to an agreement,… was a taste of what everybody else has to live with, accept what is offered,... or your out,...and good luck replacing you life style any time soon.

FAST

 

[frankcastle]

The cleaners at TTC could make up the same chart to justify their pay, and would expect the chart would show about the same numbers.


Is this a teacher’s union type blog? Is this the best they can do to justify their pay, benefits and pension?

Scroll to the bottom it's from statscan which is government run

It being the table.... the reference is at the bottom.

Yes the blog itself is obviously pro teacher.

 

[frankcastle]

The problem GameBoy is,...teachers have never experienced what the MAJORITY of workers live with as you have correctly described, or if they have,... conveniently forgotten.

The teachers here will NEVER acknowledge the cold hard facts of what none civil servants have to put up with.

The reason the Catholic board come to an agreement,… was a taste of what everybody else has to live with, accept what is offered,... or your out,...and good luck replacing you life style any time soon.

FAST

Not sure about hte catholics boards motives..... as they have the "met too clause" so they can take a shit offer and hope that the public board will do their dirty work. As if the public gets a better deal they can invoke the me too clause.

 

[FAST]

Real world economics 101

Not sure about hte catholics boards motives..... as they have the "met too clause" so they can take a shit offer and hope that the public board will do their dirty work. As if the public gets a better deal they can invoke the me too clause.

You missed my point,...the catholic boards took the deal because of a threat, maybe veiled, to shut down the separate school system,...you know,...sorta like union tactics.

It was all about self preservation,...and a lesson in how the real world works !!!

It was a win win for them as you point out, if correct,...they get to keep their life style and maybe even a better deal If they have that clause.

Which brings up another point that pisses me off,...what is this shit with unions,...if that person gets that,...I want it too,...regardless of ANY differences in the economics of the two employers.

Why would a teacher who teaches in the worst neighbourhood in Toronto get paid the same, OR less than a teacher in Guelph,...the teacher in the Toronto school should get a premium,...the union system sucks !!!

FAST

 

[JohnLarue]

Oh please so you refuse to say if you have kids and what you do. So why should I answer?

If you had an ounce of sense you would understand why I keep that as my business

You're as much a deciever as when I pmed you and told you that I wasn't a teacher you chose to continue with it. Thus making you a liar as well.

Yeah, this a some strange logic
You PM me and as a result I am a liar?????
It was an extremely odd request and I did not want to get involved in your strange little soap opera
Do me a favor do not ever Pm again, ya fucking whack job


In addition you are also a manipulative little prick
Any chance you recall these words ?

One last thing...something stuck with me i one of your PMs.... which is the honestly thing. I wouldn't ask someone to lie for me much less someone I don't know.I rationalized it for myself that if I don't outright claim, confirm or deny being a teacher I'm not lying, plus I'm not trying to harm anyone.So perhaps for you when we discuss teachers just keep it general instead of directing it at me. That way you are not asked to lie either.

I have as much credibility as a guy who chooses to remain anonymous. So who's the pot and who's the kettle.

No I think you have about as much credibility as any other fool who thinks he can convince other people by using deceit

As for the name calling. I'd actually be offended if a gave a shit about you. you're an ignorant rhetoric spouting self important asshole.

Please, you are starting to hurt my feelings. Not

BTW find one quote of mine where I was whining.

This post here has a fair degree of whining

As for being a bitch. I've got way more balls than you to admit that I was lying. I have nothing to gain from admitting it, other than I was hoping that we could return this to a civil discussion but you continue to make this personal..... demonstrating that your skils are weak as you are resorting to personal attacks rather than the issues.

You have balls ?? yeah right, you have admitted that some MPA pulled your wire a couple of times and now that she is a teacher you are completely devoted to her cause?
You may have had balls at one point Frank, but it is pretty clear who owns them now
You are a classic case of a pussy whipped weak minded fool who has allowed a pretty face to control his judgment

The only way things are better in your scenario is no raised taxes. Selfish.

It is a hell of a lot less selfish than permitting the status quo to turn Ontario in the next Athens and burdening future generations.

BTW I hope to soon provide definitive proof there is no appetite for raising taxes in order to further enrich teachers at the expense of all others

Stop for one minute and ask yourself this question
"What if JL is correct and in 5-10 years time the Province has to slash jobs just to make the interest payments on the debt while at the same time the demand for Health Care is skyrocketing"?

You ignore this possibility out of convenience (and pussy) and that is pretty selfish

BTW freeze pay and take away gratuity how much savings do you think that will have immediately? Very little as gratuity only kicks in when they retire and cash in the sick days.
Also, take away the incentive to bank days what will the cost be when teachers choose to take 10 sick days?

Apparently it is $46,000 per teacher, so if there are 400,000 teachers that is a very substantial chunk of change

I don't think it will amount to the saving that you hope for in the short term. You want to make a real dent in the deficit you need far more cash now than the above.

Obviously you are not a long term thinker.
Again you are the selfish one for not thinking about the kids who will inherent this debt. The same kids your teacher friends are currently using as negotiating pawns. Now that is selfish
We have to act now for their sake

Yes far more cash will be required, therefore it should be cuts we should be discussing rather than the status quo.

Frank, the only thing worse than a lying whining bitch is a stupid lying, whining bitch, you should cut your losses
And do not ever PM me again, I do not like drama nor do I like deceitful people

 

[Keebler Elf]

Think the teachers were not willing to give up sick days?

If the education system was made an essential service, with the right to strike removed, this would solve the future problems from strikes.

Naive.

It would "solve" the problem of strikes and make the financial problem even worse. What you conveniently overlook is that the quid pro quo for being declared an essential service is the right to binding arbitration, which historically results in higher wage increases than are otherwise negotiated by parties that have the right to strike/lockout (in other words, the strike/lockout "weapon" forces the parties to a greater degree of compromise than occurs when the parties go to binding arbitration).

There are no simple solutions so don't delude yourself into thinking otherwise.

 

[JohnLarue]

Naive.

It would "solve" the problem of strikes and make the financial problem even worse. What you conveniently overlook is that the quid pro quo for being declared an essential service is the right to binding arbitration, which historically results in higher wage increases than are otherwise negotiated by parties that have the right to strike/lockout (in other words, the strike/lockout "weapon" forces the parties to a greater degree of compromise than occurs when the parties go to binding arbitration).

There are no simple solutions so don't delude yourself into thinking otherwise.

I agree
This will not be simple and the essential service route has its downside
Perhaps that is what the unions goal is

It is extremely important for the Province to win this battle with the teachers
The battle with the Health Care sector is coming and the stakes are even higher there
1. The Health Care costs are the largest budget item
2. Health Care employees have alternatives and are much harder to replace than Teachers
Doctors and Nurses can make way more $ down in the States and there is a big demand for them in the states
3. The demand for Health Services in Ont is going to increase at an alarming rate

If the province loses the battle with the teachers it will not stand a chance against the Doctors & Nurses and that will be a catastrophe

And morons like Frank Castle and that other tool thought it was all about hating teachers.
I do not hate teachers.
I can see where this will lead if changes are not made now

 

[frankcastle]

LOL more ignorance...... therer are not 400K teachers, and they are not all retiring at the same time and they do not all necessarily max out on the gratuity.

You proposed savings will not even save 46 K per teacher when they retire as if I'm not mistaken days banked up to this point will be honoured.

Anyways, the rate of retirement and the savings in the short term is minimal. As teachers retiring in the next few years will likely have the max gratuity.

Meanwhile, the deficit and interest on it will climb if this is all we do.

If you really want to handle the debt aggressively you'd have to fire, slash pay and raises taxes. Realistically, I think rasing taxes is the only one that might happen in the near future.

So let's see to recap
you were wrong about the gdp of ontario
you don't know how many jobs lost by the recession have been recovered
you didn't know that the amount of the education budget that makes up salaries has remained roughly proportional
you don't know how many teachers are in the province
you miscalculated the short term savings of the pay freeze and stoppage of gratuity/banked sick days
you don't know how many hours a teacher works as 4.5 h is for high school and assumes no marking, prepping, extracurriculars, meetings, parental contact
you don't know how much of the ontario budget is accounted for by teacher's salaries

you also refuse to acknowledge that for many years we were paying 15% tax and it went down to 13% in good times. Now that times are tough let's bring it back. that extra 2% could literally generate billions that could all go to the deficit (if we freeze spending on teacher salary and benefits which I said countless times is the likely outcome). So in that scenario not one penny of the extra tax would go towards teachers unless you are suggesting that they should take in addition to the freeze of salarya and benefits and additional pay cut,

you also forget that others are entitled to an opinion, everyone here has a vote, and everyone here pays taxes.

 

[trtinajax]

If you want to see an excellent example of your education tax dollars being "well" spent go into the Durham District School Board website and look up their GUIDELINES TO INCLUSIVE LANGUAGE. I understand this board has spent well over one million dollars coming up with this gem. The committee is now hard at work to change the inappropriate names of the Canadian provinces. Names like Prince Edward Island, Manitoba and Alberta will be deemed to be unusable becuase of sexism (using male terminology). New Brunswick and Newfoundland will need to be changed because they disciminate against anything old. British Columbia and Nova Scotia are not acceptable becuse they imply a British background and do not reflect the realities of a world community. Ontario and Saskatchewan are to be banned bacause they are linked to native peoples and could be interrupted as a racial slur. Of course Quebec won't be changed because like all good politically correct peoples we need to bow before the almighty separtists. Further more children entering the school system beginning in September 2015 will be expected to have non-sexist names. Children with names like Robert and Roberta will not be allowed to enroll. So parents please consider naming your child with appropriate names like Parking Lot, Garbage Can, Grass, etc. Then you and your child can too can be inclusive in the vast wasteland of the Durham District School Board.

 

[KBear]

Naive.

It would "solve" the problem of strikes and make the financial problem even worse. What you conveniently overlook is that the quid pro quo for being declared an essential service is the right to binding arbitration, which historically results in higher wage increases than are otherwise negotiated by parties that have the right to strike/lockout (in other words, the strike/lockout "weapon" forces the parties to a greater degree of compromise than occurs when the parties go to binding arbitration).

There are no simple solutions so don't delude yourself into thinking otherwise.

You assume there will be "binding arbitration, which historically results in higher wage increases". That was the same argument in the past treads about making the TTC an essential service. However, The TTC was made an essential service, and right now they are working to contract out services like cleaning and maintenance, to start. If the TTC union though being an essential service would result in its members being awarded higher wages, then why did they oppose it?

And the government just removed the teacher’s right to strike, and cut their pay.

MP’s just cut their pensions, sort of. What do you think that means?

Much will depend on the public’s will to deal with these hard issues, and whether the public can tolerate all the “think of the children” type noise that will be coming from the public sector unions. It is much easier to give people raises, than to cut spending. Consider, we are going deeper in debt, the retirement age for the taxpaying public was increased to 67, wages with benefits for the public sector unions are far above those in the private sector with retirement in the mid 50’s, and we are watching other jurisdictions around the world go bankrupt.

I will agree that the problems are not solved by making the public sector unions essential services, but it is a start.

 

[red]

make the teachers join the military, then during the summer we can deploy them to troubled areas around the globe and when they return, they will be fit and have interesting stories for the kids