Teachers Taking "Sick Days" - Anyone want to defend this one?

[Yoga Face]

The Ontario education system is one of the best in the world why do we need vouchers?

The Ontario education system is one of the best in the world why do we need vouchers?

here are some reasons for vouchers


1 the state tells us we r the best
I do not believe it
even if we were that is no reason not to improve


2 schools are a melting pot that ensures abuse

people have a right not to be in a abusive environment
this is an inalienable that has been alienated


3 we have a right to our freedom
being forced to go to public school because the state has taken your educational monies is not freedom

4 while I am uncertain I suspect private schools are cheaper
but the fact is no one knows what the complete costs of public schools are


if these seem like minor issues to you that does not make them minor issues to me

 

[Yoga Face]

Vouchers are an option. Having worked for a short time at private schools the danger is that money can be the end game rather than providing a quality education. .

then do not go to that school

As far as separate schools for the "smart," the "ugly," homosexuals, etc...a thousand times no. We all need to live together and we must associate, learn, live, and work together. Segregation, whether voluntary or not, is bad.

Unfortunately disruptions are not just a part of growing up - they are a part of LIFE. Sadly, we all have to learn how to deal with distractions, disruptions, ***holes, etc. whether at school, the highway, work, and more. Sadly, adults act as badly, and often worse, than kids. That's life my friend. That said, it is important to find ways to limit distractions and disruptions in schools.

this were we part company

a thousand times no to a child being abused because you or anyone else thinks you have so much wisdom


true there is abuse is life but prevent that what you can esp with children



there is a United Nations charter that our state signed designed to prevent child abuse then our state knowingly causes child abuse (ALBIET UNINTENTIONAL) because it feels like you do


while your idea may (or may not) have validity what is illegal by our own laws cannot be allowed and what is immoral cannot be allowed no matter how strong the argument may (or may not) be


this issue should be fought on constitutional grounds to see if our laws allow our own educational monies to be taken from us forcing us to go to public schools and it and also fought on the principles of the united nations charter that guarantees children the right to an education in a safe and nurturing environment


also consider what happens when the circle completes and we are back to a church run school system ?


there are no guarantees about what will be taught in a public school and it has a history of being controlled by fundamentalists

 

[basketcase]

here are some reasons for vouchers


1 the state tells us we r the best
I do not believe it
even if we were that is no reason not to improve

You suggest the provincial government runs repeated fake international testing that consistently put us near the top?

2 schools are a melting pot that ensures abuse

people have a right not to be in a abusive environment
this is an inalienable that has been alienated

Interesting definition of abuse; having to go to school with kids different from you. Inalienable right?

3 we have a right to our freedom
being forced to go to public school because the state has taken your educational monies is not freedom

You are not forced to do anything. You are free to pay for private school if your elitist mindset wants it.

4 while I am uncertain I suspect private schools are cheaper
but the fact is no one knows what the complete costs of public schools are

Ahh, unsubstantiated suspicions. Point proven.


One of the problems with vouchers is it creates a consumer driven system where parents are the primary driver. Unfortunately far too many parents have unrealistic views of their children and a educational system based on marketing to parents will create a system that pampers youth instead of educating them. Just look at private schools where your tuition essentially ensures a good mark, regardless of the kid's abilities.

 

[JohnLarue]

he was there because the money and benefits are good - a point John Larue misses - as better pay does attract better teachers

It also attracts those motivated only by money

 

[JohnLarue]

Yup. I've long suspected that JL's education was low (haven't asked because I know he won't admit it anyway). He likely works a menial-skill-required job because he has no choice and blasts teachers through jealousy. If, in fact, teachers had it so good and he was able/qualified to do the job, someone with his level of critical thought should/would be doing it (not well, mind you) and reaping the lifestyle he is currently so opposed to. He says he doesn't want to a part of a union, but I suspect that he just could not get the job if he wanted to, so he's playing 'sour grapes' (it's okay JL, it looks good on you).

Since I know where he'll go from here... (I'll post it when he does)

I bet I have more education and letters after my name than you do
multiple degrees + more

I value education far more than most and honestly believe it is a privilege to obtain an education that far too many in the world do not get.

Re teaching: I considered it, however I knew I would burst into flames if I signed a union card
A wise family member also advised me: those that can't, teach

Still think you know me inside and out?
You are a tool

 

[FAST]

Its not complicated

So, you stalked your neighbours? You knew what they did late at night and when they were on vacation? So you judge all teachers by the actions of your neighbours? C'mon man. I did state that there are different quality levels of teachers, as there is in any profession. Maybe your neighbours weren't very good, but are you prepared to judge the entire profession by their actions? That isn't right. But don't misunderstand me, I'm sure there are some teachers who do not put in the effort others do. BUT SOME DO.
Do you have any idea how long it takes to read and grade assignments for over 100 students? You think it can done in 1 hour and 45 minutes? Are you insane? I thought you wanted teachers of quality. You can't speak of things you do not understand.
Just because my neighbour's a s****y accountant, I don't assume all accountants are s****y. And I don't tell my plumber how long it should take to install a new water heater.
C'mon, let's put a little thought into action here instead of just an innate dislike of the profession.
By the way, it's "marketable." Get a refund on those night classes. Sorry...couldn't resist.

I can see why some “teachers” fail,…they can’t separate the profession from personal.
If you can’t do that,…they wouldn’t survive in most other professions either.

And I never said any teachers are shitty, although some are, and are protected by the union.

I have lived in four different localities in Ont,…and as I already stated,…have always had teachers as neighbours,…but NO,…my wife and I did NOT “stalk” our teacher neighbours,…we partied with them, went out to dinner with them,…actually had a teacher couple spend a weekend with us after we moved from their neighbourhood.
Still do the same to-day,…get them out of their union mob entitlement environment,…their just like most other people.
One such neighbour, after he became a vice principle, (too many of those, by the way), told me during dinner at our home that the unions have far to much power,…sorta like how the CAW evolved,…but eventually had their ass handed to them.
So you see, I have inside info, and know their life style intimately.

As far as “reading and grading/preparation time” available per day,…a typical contract is for a max of only 5 hours per day of consisting of actual class instruction, “preparation time”, of typically 5 hrs/week,…plus teachers assistants,…plus 2 days /year for report cards.
Considering the average work day for the general public is 8 hrs.,…I’m sure you can do the math,…how many hours left after the last class,…lots of time to “clean up” before 5:00PM.

And as far as telling any OTHER professions how long they have to do a project,…in the real world,…done all the time,…and if they don’t do it right,…they get to do it again,…for free.

You want another example of why your so called profession is garnering so much dislike by the general public,….how about this little tid bit that, like so many others that were slipped in,…8 weeks of maternity leave at 100% pay for the ENTIRE CALENDAR YEAR,… NOT the school year, the calendar year.
What does that mean,…a teacher can get full pay for the school year, and then potentially get an additional 8 weeks at the particular teachers rate during the summer vacation.
At $80,000/year, that could be an additional $10,000.

And no,…people don’t “hate” a profession,…that’s just silly,…but what people really dislike is a mob mentality, greed, entitlement, disregard for the very people they are supposed to help,…and the “nobody tells us what to do” attitude.

FAST

 

[Yoga Face]

You suggest the provincial government runs repeated fake international testing that consistently put us near the top?


.

there are 3 kinds of statistics

1 lies

2 more lies

3 more damn lies

Interesting definition of abuse; having to go to school with kids different from you. Inalienable right?

.

no the abuse comes, for example , when

1 gays are insulted and beaten up

2 fat and ugly girls are ostracized

3 classes are interrupted by jerks

4 u do not fit in because u r actually smart and want to learn etc etc

You are not forced to do anything. You are free to pay for private school if your elitist mindset wants it.
.

that is like saying you are free to buy a mansion when you r poor

the state has taken your educational monies in taxes

I simple want what is mine back

Ahh, unsubstantiated suspicions. Point proven.

.

the only point proven is that our government does not know what they spend on education

we know exactly what private costs are phone a school and ask

One of the problems with vouchers is it creates a consumer driven system where parents are the primary driver. Unfortunately far too many parents have unrealistic views of their children and a educational system based on marketing to parents will create a system that pampers youth instead of educating them. Just look at private schools where your tuition essentially ensures a good mark, regardless of the kid's abilities.

I agree

but

if a parent is so fucking dumb they will send their own children to a bad school with their own monies then that is the cost of freedom

some of the absolute best schools are private so are some of the home schools but with vouchers you could hire a home teacher then go to a job


you could also home school yourself and put your vouchers into a interest bearing account that will pay for university


educational concepts will grow like crazy when given freedom

the private system will do to education what it has done to the computer

education concepts will become so advanced that you will not recognize it as being such

does not freedom sound wonderful ?

 

[DTECanada]

Yoga, you're statements are a bit unintelligible and vague, but I'll try to address what I can.

You are using the word "abuse" too loosely and attempting to twist my words. A thousand times no to segregation. We all have to live together. Accept it. Schools definitively have a responsibility to provide a safe learning environment. You talk as if there are wanton acts of physical violence while school officials walk blindly by and children go home bloody and bruised. People get picked on dude. Even if you segregate people you will have bullies in the smart schools, the homosexual schools, whatever. Be real now. Yes, it would be nice if we all walked around giving hugs and handing out puppies. I'm all for it. But hugs don't stop the Hitlers, the con artists, road rage drivers, and hardcore criminals of the world. It's like the handshake...a wonderful gesture with it's origin lying in the need to ensure no weapons were in hand. Be nice, but be wary.

Not sure what you're talking about when you mention fundamentalists. Normally that means conservative. If you think schools are conservative, my friend, you have lost you're mind. Teachers are generally far left liberals because they (1) attended university (extremely liberal atmosphere), (2) are academics, which means they often live in a world of ideas (peace on earth, hugs, and puppies again), and (3) they are union (need I say more?).

 

[DTECanada]

I can see why some “teachers” fail,…they can’t separate the profession from personal.
If you can’t do that,…they wouldn’t survive in most other professions either.

And I never said any teachers are shitty, although some are, and are protected by the union.

I have lived in four different localities in Ont,…and as I already stated,…have always had teachers as neighbours,…but NO,…my wife and I did NOT “stalk” our teacher neighbours,…we partied with them, went out to dinner with them,…actually had a teacher couple spend a weekend with us after we moved from their neighbourhood.
Still do the same to-day,…get them out of their union mob entitlement environment,…their just like most other people.
One such neighbour, after he became a vice principle, (too many of those, by the way), told me during dinner at our home that the unions have far to much power,…sorta like how the CAW evolved,…but eventually had their ass handed to them.
So you see, I have inside info, and know their life style intimately.

As far as “reading and grading/preparation time” available per day,…a typical contract is for a max of only 5 hours per day of consisting of actual class instruction, “preparation time”, of typically 5 hrs/week,…plus teachers assistants,…plus 2 days /year for report cards.
Considering the average work day for the general public is 8 hrs.,…I’m sure you can do the math,…how many hours left after the last class,…lots of time to “clean up” before 5:00PM.

And as far as telling any OTHER professions how long they have to do a project,…in the real world,…done all the time,…and if they don’t do it right,…they get to do it again,…for free.

You want another example of why your so called profession is garnering so much dislike by the general public,….how about this little tid bit that, like so many others that were slipped in,…8 weeks of maternity leave at 100% pay for the ENTIRE CALENDAR YEAR,… NOT the school year, the calendar year.
What does that mean,…a teacher can get full pay for the school year, and then potentially get an additional 8 weeks at the particular teachers rate during the summer vacation.
At $80,000/year, that could be an additional $10,000.

And no,…people don’t “hate” a profession,…that’s just silly,…but what people really dislike is a mob mentality, greed, entitlement, disregard for the very people they are supposed to help,…and the “nobody tells us what to do” attitude.

FAST

Unions, like all organisations, start out with noble goals and then become more concerned with power than the noble goals...I agree. I never joined the union.

I still have an issue with your work hours math. I'm sure there are some teachers that may take advantage of the schedule, but many like myself worked our a**es off. I normally arrived for work at 0645, left at 1630 and spent an additional 2-4 hours working at home. That's 12-14 hours a day.

I don't know long all the other teachers worked...and neither do you.

I do know there were some teachers that must have worked very long hours based on the classes I witnessed, and there were some I suspect did not put in as much time as they should have.

Are there issues? Absolutely. Can unions be a detriment? Absolutely. Does every profession have people who don't give it their all? Absolutely. Does the teaching profession deserve more respect? Absolutely. Do some teachers need to leave the profession? Absolutely. Are you qualified to make that determination? Absolutely...not.

 

[Yoga Face]

You are using the word "abuse" too loosely and attempting to twist my words. A thousand times no to segregation. We all have to live together. Accept it. Schools definitively have a responsibility to provide a safe learning environment. You talk as if there are wanton acts of physical violence while school officials walk blindly by and children go home bloody and bruised. People get picked on dude. Even if you segregate people you will have bullies in the smart schools, the homosexual schools, whatever. Be real now. Yes, it would be nice if we all walked around giving hugs and handing out puppies. I'm all for it. But hugs don't stop the Hitlers, the con artists, road rage drivers, and hardcore criminals of the world. It's like the handshake...a wonderful gesture with it's origin lying in the need to ensure no weapons were in hand. Be nice, but be wary.

of course no teacher wants abuse and will stop it if possible but it cannot be stopped in a melting pot where things melt

I disagree that this abuse cannot be stopped

I have seen an American documentary on kids that escaped the public school

one where bright kids were chosen to go to a bright kid school and to a student they said how extremely happy they were to be in a school where "it was cool to be smart"

another one was where gays were chosen to go to a gay school and they would cry in happiness when interviewed

another one where at risk kids were taken from a ghetto school and put on a farm in Montana where they took care of horses while being educated

they all said they had been saved from becoming gangbangers

Not sure what you're talking about when you mention fundamentalists. Normally that means conservative. If you think schools are conservative, my friend, you have lost you're mind. Teachers are generally far left liberals because they (1) attended university (extremely liberal atmosphere), (2) are academics, which means they often live in a world of ideas (peace on earth, hugs, and puppies again), and (3) they are union (need I say more?).

teachers do not run the schools


politicians do


if (when) our political environment becomes more fundamentalist in nature the schools will change and the schools will say the lords prayer every day and teach gay hatred etc

 

[DTECanada]

if (when) our political environment becomes more fundamentalist in nature the schools will change and the schools will say the lords prayer every day and teach gay hatred etc

(a) will NEVER happen
(b) nothing wrong with The Lord's Prayer, but will NEVER happen.
(c) WILL. NEVER. HAPPEN.

If anything, schools are way too liberal. Kids are sent home from schools in California for having an American flag on a shirt. Teachers telling students that conservatives are evil. Again...teach kids how to think, not what to think.

Great story about the Montana school. That was for at-risk kids. I understand your point about specialty schools. I could almost agree to a point when it comes to big cities, but I still say no to segregation...we need to learn to live together.

 

[Yoga Face]

(a) will NEVER happen
(b) nothing wrong with The Lord's Prayer, but will NEVER happen.
(c) WILL. NEVER. HAPPEN.
.

there is something wrong with forcing children to say the lords prayer if you are Muslim, atheist, Wiccan etc

the argument christian fundamentalists use is this country was founded on Christian values so these values should be taught to our children and we have our own "silent majority" of christian fundamentalists

u r very naïve

circles complete themselves

yesterday we were conservative in teaching religious values today we are against it tomorrow we will be conservative or even teach hatred

Germany taught Nazi hatred in their schools, USSR taught communist hatred etc

we r not immune from any of this


so we should not allow the state to decide what thoughts our children should be taught but i do not suggest public schools be closed

they can compete for the vouchers

Great story about the Montana school. That was for at-risk kids. I understand your point about specialty schools. I could almost agree to a point when it comes to big cities, but I still say no to segregation...we need to learn to live together.

i have misrepresented my thoughts on this issue

I say no to segregation as well

most private schools are not segregated


schools like Montessori teach alternative learning concepts but are quite inclusive

but if a gay wants to go to a gay only school or a Christian to a Christian school that is their choice
as some private schools (Muslim, Christian etc ) are segregated

such segregation is the cost of freedom

i think your argument is that the freedom of vouchers will lead to social segregation and that this will lead to social problems

this is a theory not fact

there are question that need to be answered


"do vouchers improve the quality of education?"

"are they affordable?"

"will they harm society?"

i believe the answer is yes, yes and no but i could be wrong and an in depth study is needed


so if our government (and our teachers ) want only the best education for our children why have not they done this study ?????


i believe the answer is self interest groups want to keep the status quo

 

[basketcase]

...

if (when) our political environment becomes more fundamentalist in nature the schools will change and the schools will say the lords prayer every day and teach gay hatred etc

Yet this is exactly what voucher schools will become.

Stopping bullying has one simple problem - not the school refusing to do anything but dealing with the parents of the bully. How exactly is a school supposed to discipline a bully when the parents back them up and challenge the school's decision? The only cases the news has had about bullies being properly punished is when there is incontrovertible proof like online stuff.

Segregating kids in schools won't help them function in society.

As it is, the Toronto board seems to already have all sorts of specialty schools and allows you to go to any school unless it is over capacity. Toronto has arts schools, elite athlete schools, IB, AP, Gay focus, African studies, Aboriginal, Tech, social justice schools, all sorts of alternative programs... seems like the excuse for vouchers is already taken care of.


p.s. I think you have a misunderstanding of a voucher system. It is not your money you are spending but rather your share of the provincial education funding which is payed for by everyone.

p.p.s. Ontario stopped the Lord's Prayer in the 80's.

 

[Yoga Face]

Yet this is exactly what voucher schools will become.

.

with one vital difference - it will be done by the freedom of choice

but this does not mean KKK schools or any hatred school is allowed as we already have laws preventing such

my bigger fear is totally incompetent nutbar schools so i would suggest some government regulation and grading to inform parents of WTF they are getting into


another concern is who would have the power of these vouchers the parent or the student ?

Segregating kids in schools won't help them function in society.

.

I strongly disagree

putting A CHILD INTO AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE they are happy will indeed help them function better

As it is, the Toronto board seems to already have all sorts of specialty schools and allows you to go to any school unless it is over capacity. Toronto has arts schools, elite athlete schools, IB, AP, Gay focus, African studies, Aboriginal, Tech, social justice schools, all sorts of alternative programs... seems like the excuse for vouchers is already taken care of.

.

this means the system is admitting their melting pot concept of education for over 100 years has been incompetent

the freedom of vouchers will bring even greater choice

also what about smaller communities ?

p.s. I think you have a misunderstanding of a voucher system. It is not your money you are spending but rather your share of the provincial education funding which is payed for by everyone.
.

the share i put in is my money

p.p.s. Ontario stopped the Lord's Prayer in the 80's.

the circle will complete itself and it will be back (or something worse )

 

[basketcase]

there are 3 kinds of statistics

1 lies

2 more lies

3 more damn lies

...

Not statistics but the results of international testing.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...mong-best-in-world-report-says/article567927/
http://www.cmec.ca/278/Press-Releas...-Grade-in-New-OECD-Report.html?id_article=570
http://globalnews.ca/news/283717/ca...-and-what-we-can-learn-from-shanghai-finland/

 

[Yoga Face]

Not statistics but the results of international testing.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...mong-best-in-world-report-says/article567927/
http://www.cmec.ca/278/Press-Releas...-Grade-in-New-OECD-Report.html?id_article=570
http://globalnews.ca/news/283717/ca...-and-what-we-can-learn-from-shanghai-finland/

interesting



thx for informing me

however

my points remain valid


i think DTECanada may be correct when stating a combination of vouchers and public schools are the way to go
but how can u give vouchers to only some?


not sure


home schooling can be extremely effective , for example

just the busing back and forth is such a time waster as well as going to class, peer pressure, disruptions etc


vouchers would allow parents to hire competent teachers esp if you have selected fellow home schoolers join you as that increases the monies you have



so i remain unmoved

vouchers for those who want them will not eliminate public schools as the majority will stay with a proven system i suspect although it would take needed monies away from a cash strapped system but their expenses will go down with less students ......




this is an american video but still valid to canada

 

[Yoga Face]

u cannot get more conservative than this very bright and educated fellow (again American)

 

[basketcase]

the freedom of vouchers will bring even greater choice

also what about smaller communities ?

Except smaller communities will still have the exact same choices they have now; either drive a long distance or go to the local school and big communities already have a variet of choice so your argument is moot.

the circle will complete itself and it will be back (or something worse )

Are you suggesting that in our climate of increasing diversity, the supreme court will reverse their ruling and favour one faith? the only way they would allow that is if the school was 100% supportive which will only happen if parents self select - ala vouchers.

 

[DTECanada]

Yoga, the Lord's Prayer will never ever be mandatory in a public school. My point in saying there's nothing wrong it in and of itself lies in "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." A nice sentiment.

Your admiration of private schools should tell you that some of the best private schools are religious (generally Catholic). Many non-Catholics attend these schools specifically because of the quality of their education...and they are not forced to be Catholic. I actually taught at a private school that was run by Catholics (though not by the Catholic Church). I received zero interference when I taught The Reformation. The school also had a great grading system. No letter grades. I had to write a narrative on every one of my hundred-plus students on how they were progressing. I loved it, but it was excruciatingly difficult.

You paint all religious people with the same brush, which is intolerant...yet you seem to want tolerance.

You, and others, have pointed to the absolute power of teacher's unions but then you say they don't run the schools.

Too many contradictions.

You have many valid concerns, but are too paranoid.

If there is one thing I am not, it's naive. This ain't my first rodeo, as some say.

 

[JohnLarue]

. Does the teaching profession deserve more respect? Absolutely.

Respect is earned and like so may other things in life it can be a very fragile honour

Much of the good will teachers may have had is now in question because
a) they displayed a very self-righteous sense of entitlement
b) they used the students as negotiating pawns
c) they do not appear to respect the taxpayer at all

Is it my place to judge?
Absolutely. I am a taxpayer

If teachers do not feel respected, they only have their union leaders to blame