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Sundin to Detroit???

Herodotus

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I think any team that wants to make an impact trade-deadline deal has to be realistic in understanding the team chemistry and its strengths and weaknesses and how it stacks up in hockey's upper echelon when it's setting the team goals.

Last year, Nashville and Atlanta didn't have a hope of going far into the playoffs, but made huge trades that affected their long-term futures anyway. Nashville had to compete against the powerful Western Conference (it ended up matched with a very good San Jose team in the first round) and then would have had to beat Detroit and Anaheim had they got by the Sharks anyway. Atlanta had too many other holes and were never going to beat Buffalo, Ottawa or New Jersey, let alone the Rangers, who ended up sweeping them in round one.

If a team is mature, near the top of their conference and has few weaknesses, but has a legitimate shot at the Cup, then why not go for it? There are no dynasties in hockey anymore, so if you've got a legit chance, go for it - who knows what the future holds. So long as you don't completely mortgage the future to win right now, there's nothing wrong with making a bold move. In fact, franchises like Detroit or Ottawa owes it to their players and fans to make a run at Lord Stanley's Cup.

San Jose is the type of team that should try this approach. The Sharks need to try and bring in a top-2 defenceman and a top-6 forward. The West is there to be had and they have a very good team that just needs a player or two to put them over the top.
 

DATYdude

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The best move for any fan right now?

Go to teacher's college.

BTW Sundin says he doesn't want to go to another team as a rent-a-player, and that shows he has character. But why not have a ring to go along with that character. The guy's a hockey player, why not enjoy playing on a good team for a while before he hangs 'em up?
 

Neverenuff$

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"franchises like Detroit or Ottawa owes it to their players and fans to make a run at Lord Stanley's Cup."

Geeza you make it sound like Ottawa or Detroit have n ot been good to their fans over the years... you should hear about this "team" called "toronto "
 

Herodotus

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Neverenuff$ said:
Geeza you make it sound like Ottawa or Detroit have not been good to their fans over the years... you should hear about this "team" called "toronto "
LOL! My heart bleeds blue and white for you.

My point was both the Wings and the Sens are positioned to make a legitimate run at the Cup and should do what they can to make it happen. We saw the Detroit "fans" already abandoning ship last year - empty seats in the playoffs?!? WTF was that all about?

In the salary cap era, there will be even more parity, at least among the teams with semi-competant management - sorry Leafs fans, that excludes you - that will lead to a continuation of the events of the last few years of new Stanley Cup winners and finalists each year. So the lesson is, if you have the opportunity to win it all, go for it.

This "team" from "toronto" should think about blowing it up and starting over again. Find one person to run the show - paging Ken Holland - revamp the scouting network and minor-league development structure (young, cheap players are the key to thriving in the salary cap) and understand the ramifications of both the salary cap (proper valuation of veteran players is tantamount) and the current rules (goaltending is of the utmost importance - followed by skating ability, toughness and special teams play, including shootout specialist) on the team building process.
 

shack

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duuno said:
Not sure because nothing is for sure...but Sundin is having a banner year and dont think can be compared to any of the above....
Basically, I was replying to ottawasub who was saying it was time to rethink the rent-a-player scenario and he cited a few cases that didn't work. I only cited a few cases that did but was not referring to Sundin or anyone else in particular.
 

Neverenuff$

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"We saw the Detroit "fans" already abandoning ship last year - empty seats in the playoffs?!? WTF was that all about?"

Ahh haa... This is what Toronto needs ... Fans that stay away !!

Detroit must constantly provide a contender or they risk losing revenue ... its a hard market.

And now we switch my rant back to the regular thread Rant....


Back to Sundin....

Toronto ... screw the Fans they'll pay anyway , why risk moving Sundin , and being second guessed by everyone on that move .. stand Pat miss the playoffs , get a draft pick and claim that your now on a "youth movement" the Toronto Fans will think thats the best idea since driving the Zambonie clockwise !! ...

Raise the ticket prices so the fans can watch the new sensation draft pick who will explode under Toronto scrutiney .. get booed out of town and win a Cup somewhere else ...
 

21pro

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funny thing is, to get what toronto needs, i think sundin needs to be traded to a non-contender. i mean, which contending team wants to give up their high profile young players...

he is clearly not as valuable as the media is making him to be.
 

new2game

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Here's a little "economics" 101 for you

Herodotus said:
. We saw the Detroit "fans" already abandoning ship last year - empty seats in the playoffs?!? WTF was that all about?


....and this is coming from a Wing hater...the empty seats have nothing to do with fans "abandoning ship". It has everything to do with a failing economy in the area...including the Canadians from the Windsor area that support the team.Both the Detroit area and the Windsor area have been hit hard by plant closures and high unemployment rates. This leaves a lot less discretionary funds available, especially when there are 3 professional teams playing very well...MLB Tigers, NBA Pistons and the NHL Red Wings. Only so much cash to go around.


N2G
 

BigBlueBud

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re: contending?

21pro said:
funny thing is, to get what toronto needs, i think sundin needs to be traded to a non-contender. i mean, which contending team wants to give up their high profile young players...

he is clearly not as valuable as the media is making him to be.
I guess a team like Nashville giving up Scotty Upshall, Ryan Parent, a first and third rounder for Forsberg isn't enough?

How about Atlanta giving up 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounders for Tkachuk, as well as trading promising blueliner Braydon Coburn to Philly for Zhitnik?

Good young players are available for the right price. I would imagine the Leafs could get NHL-ready players like Jiri Hudler and Niklas Kronwall from the Red Wings for Sundin, or perhaps Bobby Ryan and Edmonton's first rounder (probably a top-10 pick) from the Ducks.
 

shack

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new2game said:
This leaves a lot less discretionary funds available, especially when there are 3 professional teams playing very well...MLB Tigers, NBA Pistons and the NHL Red Wings. Only so much cash to go around.N2G
I was going to mention the Lions but then I saw you specified "professional" teams.
 

Herodotus

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new2game said:
....and this is coming from a Wing hater...the empty seats have nothing to do with fans "abandoning ship". It has everything to do with a failing economy in the area...including the Canadians from the Windsor area that support the team.Both the Detroit area and the Windsor area have been hit hard by plant closures and high unemployment rates. This leaves a lot less discretionary funds available, especially when there are 3 professional teams playing very well...MLB Tigers, NBA Pistons and the NHL Red Wings. Only so much cash to go around.

N2G
Then Detroit should relinquish the (phony) title of "Hockeytown". The Red Wings have reduced average ticket prices by more than 20% from 2003-2004 levels, are over 6% under the NHL average and are in the lower 1/3 of NHL ticket prices.

The Pistons have sold out for over 200 straight home games with the average ticket price going up every year - and Pistons tickets are $6 more on average than Red Wing tickets. Tigers and Lions ticket sales and prices have gone up in recent years.

Have Detroit fans taken the Wings for granted, or did the lockout destroy a fragile (and fickle) fan base? Just curious, because this only started in the past year and Michigan's economy has been in the dumps for awhile now...
 

21pro

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BigBlueBud said:
I guess a team like Nashville giving up Scotty Upshall, Ryan Parent, a first and third rounder for Forsberg isn't enough?

How about Atlanta giving up 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounders for Tkachuk, as well as trading promising blueliner Braydon Coburn to Philly for Zhitnik?

Good young players are available for the right price. I would imagine the Leafs could get NHL-ready players like Jiri Hudler and Niklas Kronwall from the Red Wings for Sundin, or perhaps Bobby Ryan and Edmonton's first rounder (probably a top-10 pick) from the Ducks.
your main flaw in your reasoning is: that was then.

the 2007/08 season is quite a bit different with much greater parity and a flush of new talent in the league. teams value the young talent even more now than last season.

if sundin is traded, it's gotta bring in a 1st round draft pick plus talent... that 1st rounder is gonna be lower than the leafs own top 5 pick (assuming they remain on course!) the 1st round is gonna be after the 14th pick overall... still good talent available, but, could be much higher if he's traded to a non-playoff contender.
 

Neverenuff$

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Herodotus said:
Then Detroit should relinquish the (phony) title of "Hockeytown". The Red Wings have reduced average ticket prices by more than 20% from 2003-2004 levels, are over 6% under the NHL average and are in the lower 1/3 of NHL ticket prices.

QUOTE]


Interesting ... so what or where would "hockeytown" be.. and based on what ? fan turnout and revenue ..

That makes Toronto "Hockeytown" hands down ...except they don't have a team.. (following Detroit Lions logic)

I guess in reality Hockeytown is Ottawa then ... 2nd best team in the NHL and I believe they have a good attendance record ...and enough revenue to meet the Cap and provide talanted players
 

Neverenuff$

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21pro said:
funny thing is, to get what toronto needs, i think sundin needs to be traded to a non-contender. i mean, which contending team wants to give up their high profile young players...

he is clearly not as valuable as the media is making him to be.

Sorry back to Sundin ...

21.. when you say "non-contender" what do you mean .. a team who is following say a 3-5 year plan ?.. how would Sundin as a "rent a player" help?

Conversely if Sundin stays with said new team , how much longer will he even play ? Sundin is a "old" player and may not fit with a "non-contenders" long term plan


Basically wouldn't his value be to a "contender" as a right here right now player.. to hell with next year ! ... so which contender needs to add offense .. at a possible cost to defense , and is willing to give up some future players for a dare I say a player whose playoff experience is 83 games, and rarely past the first round ?

9 trips to the playoffs in 17 years ... not Sundins fault but he's no Joe Sakic (for playoff comparison)
 

bigdik

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21pro said:
your main flaw in your reasoning is: that was then.

the 2007/08 season is quite a bit different with much greater parity and a flush of new talent in the league. teams value the young talent even more now than last season.

if sundin is traded, it's gotta bring in a 1st round draft pick plus talent... that 1st rounder is gonna be lower than the leafs own top 5 pick (assuming they remain on course!) the 1st round is gonna be after the 14th pick overall... still good talent available, but, could be much higher if he's traded to a non-playoff contender.
Could be higher, but what possible reason could a non contender have for trading for Sundin? Why, the only organization screwed up enough to do that is .......wait a tick, they already have Sundin. Drat!:rolleyes:
 

Neverenuff$

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bigdik said:
Could be higher, but what possible reason could a non contender have for trading for Sundin? Why, the only organization screwed up enough to do that is .......wait a tick, they already have Sundin. Drat!:rolleyes:

well maybe the leafs can get Punch Imlack to stroke sundin to gretter hieghts
 

21pro

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bigdik said:
Could be higher, but what possible reason could a non contender have for trading for Sundin? Why, the only organization screwed up enough to do that is .......wait a tick, they already have Sundin. Drat!:rolleyes:
that is why the matter is complex. really, the best place for Sundin is Toronto! yet, i do want to see a trade (i guess i like the drama) or (i'd like Sundin to have a chance to win)

let's face it, the leafs are tanking the season fine With Sundin! No need to trade him!

i say get rid of Blake, Tucker, McCabe, White, Wellwood, Steen, Devereaux, Battaglia, Raycroft. hell, even Kaberle needs a change of scenery.

these are assets. there is some compensation to get for them, albeit, not much.

one thing for sure.... what ever happens, the leafs are sure to screw it up.
 

Neverenuff$

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21pro said:
i say get rid of Blake, Tucker, McCabe, White, Wellwood, Steen, Devereaux, Battaglia, Raycroft. hell, even Kaberle needs a change of scenery.

one thing for sure.... what ever happens, the leafs are sure to screw it up.

Blake Tucker McCabe Raycroft .. contracts to inflated to trade

the others are the vaunted Leaf youth movement .....
 

21pro

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the vaunted leaf youth movement sucks.

except for Straulman and Colaiacovo.

as for the heavy contracts... buy the fuckers out.
 
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