Should the US goverment involve itself in Liberia?

[submissivedave]

Re: I've

Double-checked with a couple of my Black friends and they confirmed to me that they can (and often do) vote. Your information source may be a bit dated.

You are free to go back into your germ free isolation now.

OTB

What HowardHughes said is true ...

The Civil War was a war fought over ideology. North and South, Freedom(for Blacks) and Slavery(for Blacks). Yes, the North won the war, yet, Blacks were still discriminated and still were not allowed to vote ... theoretically speaking, Blacks were free men, but in reality and in practice they were not free and they were not equal.

And HowardHughes is right to point out that Blacks were not fully recognized until 100 years later. The idea of a "free Black man" was not rectified 100 years later. But this problem should of been solved during or slightly after the Civil War but was not ...

Luckily people like Martin Luther Jr. and Rosa Parks came along ...

 

[HornyTime]

So HornyTime,

I'm really happy to read what you have posted - but riddle me this...

<Cut>

Believe it or not, Canada does not have a spotless past either - I wonder how many Chinese died while constructing our national railroad...the difference I think between us is that I don't make excuses for our past - I simply have to accept them.

Sorry about the cut but I didn't want to show the whole post again. I hate it when people quote the whole post.

What I was trying to point out in my earlier post, and defend the US in the same way, is that Canada doesn't have a much better record. It bothers me when Canadians point out American faults when we have much of the same faults.

To compare the rights to vote in the 1880s-1940s of the two countries is somewhat unfair. I couldn't actually find when blacks received the right to vote in Canada (using google.ca), maybe it wasn't an issue here because our black population was a lot less. I would guess though if their had been a sizable black population in Canada we would have found a way to prevent their vote - for example by requiring land ownership for the right to vote. As shown in my earlier post Canada prevented other non-white (Asian, Native) groups from voting for a long time.

 

[onthebottom]

An intelligent

artical about this issue:

http://www.economist.com/agenda/displaystory.cfm?story_id=1938769

600 dead and counting SubDave, should we still let them figure it out? (that's 3x the number of US casualties in Iraq for those keeping score)

OTB

 

[HowardHughes]

Onthebottom,

The bottom line of my post also says that Canada has a bad track record as well. Now, as for the contacting of African-American friends and finding out that they could vote, well, that is great - however, what I was saying that 100 years after the US Civil War (that being 1865 + 100 years = 1965), a tremendously large portion of the African American population still could not vote. So, maybe you should ask your friends to ask their parents or grandparents - and then make the rebuttal.

Canada's treatment of Native Canadians has been pretty bad - not sure if you ever heard of the $5.00 a year payment registered Natives still get from our government? Problem was that it wasn't indexed to inflation - guess our Government "forgot" to include that.

Now, as for the American treatment of Native American Indians...check out "The Trail of Tears" on google - and then get back to me.

And, Onthebottom, also use google to read up on "The underground railway".

As for my germ-free environment...I can't bbq in there - gets too smokey!!!!!

 

[E_B_Samaritano]

Tell me Howard, did you realize that not only Indians marched the Trail of Tears. And I don't need to reference Google, my mother is part American Indian and both parents are from Indian Territory, that would be the State of Oklahoma. I'd love to engage you in an enlightening discussion about the history of black accomplishment and rights in America, or the lack thereof if I were to concede your viewpoint, but unfortunately I haven't got the time at present.

Two key issues. The Civil War was fought to preserve the Union and assert the authority of the central government. The entire United States would have collapsed had that war not been fought. Slavery was an ancillary issue. Lincoln could have issued an order to free the slaves prior to the war, notice he did not. As for why voting rights took 100 years after the law, I cannot answer for the misdeeds of the whites who perpetrated that atrocity. They must speak for themselves, as many do by wanting to reasert their tradition of sedition and subjugation as represented by the rebirth of the New Republican party in the south. Your assumption that all that was needed was to pass laws and all of a sudden better than 160 years of enslavement and total denial of economic and educational opportunity was supposed to be instantly corrected is naive. If you can start a conversation on the issue that represents at least that basic level of understanding, perhaps an exchange on the subject will be a worthwhile experience for me. Otherwise, it's a waste of time.

There would be much ground to cover in such a discussion. Suffice it to say that the thing that makes America great is it's ability to rise above it's past problems and look forward to the future. The doors to this country are wide open outbound, and I don't see the masses fleeing. However, I do see several hundred thousand of Canada's best and brightest seeking refuge in the US. Perhaps you should ask them the question about America being a great place. As for me, I enjoy visiting and have lived in several foreign countries, including the middle east. Every time the wheels touch down at SFO, I'm always glad to be home, regardless.

EBS

 

[DenWa]

I think the U.S. has come a long way in barely more than two centuries of being a country. We went from owning slaves not much more than a century ago, and now blacks and whites live in relative unity and some of the richest people in the country are black. Fifty years ago blacks had to use different bathrooms, drinking fountains - hell, women haven't been able to vote for very long for that matter. In 200 years I'd say we've made amazing progress. You focus on the fact that it took a hundred years after the Civil War for blacks to get a fair shake and criticize. I'd say it's a mighty fucking accomplishment that it only took that long. You focus on the negative, and it discredits those AMERICANS who dedicated their lives, and many who died, to make things better. Both black and white. We have blood on our hands - so do you - but at least the U.S. makes a difference. Not that people like Howard Hughes, or *d really give a shit. They just like to sit on their cyber-soap box and bitch. As for SubDave, he doesn't really count now, does he? Everything ends up going back to Eastern Philosophy and his endless quotes and links. You sound like a farking fortune cookie. The world doesn't operate that way, brother.

On the Bottom, it seems we inevitably end up in these arguments with our Canadian counterparts. While I applaud fighting the good fight, I think we're wasting our breath. I wonder how many of these people who complain about everything actually go out and vote. Or get involved with the community instead of combing the net for left-wing fascist propaganda to support their anti-American viewpoints. In the end it doesn't really matter, I suppose. I am very proud to be an American, and my life is pretty fucking cool, and I think that's all that matters.

DW

 

[HowardHughes]

E.B. - I agree on the notion of slavery being an ancillary issue in the Civil War - that came in late 1864 - wasn't that part of Lincoln's election platform??? I agree with you completely on this one - the Civil War was raging for a number of years before Lincoln addressed the issue.

However E.B....read the posts carefully - you are simply reinforcing my point on what I had said earlier - it was OTB that criticized me by saying he had checked with his friends, and they could vote - I merely pointed out that I am referring to historical fact - and that 100 years had passed before the civil rights movement became a real public issue. I am stating facts E.B. - not an opinion.

I was using the Trail of Tears to represent the issues of Native Americans - if you want to throw in other groups, be my guest - the POINT here, E.B., is that it happened. Your background is part Native American - that is great - my point only highlights one of the problems that the Native American population faced.

 

[HowardHughes]

Oh, and DenWa...I'm right-wing here in Canada - I actually think that Nixon was a communist.

I don't focus on just the negatives - I supported the idea and outcome of the Marshall Plan!!!

Not to mention, if it wasn't for the Americans...where would we find our Budweiser girls???

 

[DenWa]

HH...I think you need to state your views more clearly in these conversations, because sometimes it's hard to tell where you stand. Didn't mean to throw the red, white, and blue at you, but you were sounding a bit too SubDave for my liking.

By the way, I live in L.A., and every time I'm driving on the 405 and I pass the Howard Hughes exit I now think of you.

DW

 

[HowardHughes]

Thanks DenWa!

You have to realize that I do love the US - and yes, I love to debate issues.

My grandfather was called up for active duty for WW 2 either September 3 or 9th, 1939. He was stationed overseas until late 1945.

I tried to enlist for the Gulf War, but by the time I would have been ready, it was already over!!!!!

I really hope I don't come across as a pinko

As for the Howard Hughes comment, you almost made me spit out my coffee!!!!!

 

[HowardHughes]

Oh yeah DenWa...I almost forgot - if it is any help - I only follow the NFL - not our football!!!

 

[DenWa]

good...cause your football is silly, and if anyone (Winston????) tries to say otherwise then they're just a damn hoser.

DW

 

[Wired For Sound]

HH...I think you need to state your views more clearly in these conversations, because sometimes it's hard to tell where you stand. Didn't mean to throw the red, white, and blue at you, but you were sounding a bit too SubDave for my liking.

By the way, I live in L.A., and every time I'm driving on the 405 and I pass the Howard Hughes exit I now think of you.

DW

Yes, HH does sound like Subdave. If HH is right-wing, I'm a Marxist. Actually, HH is a confused collectivist. He's mixing legitimate greivances: e.g. denials of basic natural rights such as slavery and right to vote; with collectivist "social justice" issues that are collectivist (left-wing) in nature (e.g. extortionist payments to Canadian Indians).

 

[onthebottom]

HH

I understood your point about the Civil War and the voting rights act - my point was (obviously too vague) that it's not new information, and history is behind us. I thought it was just a cheap shot at the US and didn't see its relevance for the Liberia situation.

DeWa, I know what you mean but I can't ignore all the comments I read on this board. Someone comparing Iraq to Vietnam, how can you let something that stupid and out of proportion slide? Enjoy SoCal, it's nice out there - I've spent a bunch of time in Santa Monica - very nice.

OTB

 

[HowardHughes]

good...cause your football is silly, and if anyone (Winston????) tries to say otherwise then they're just a damn hoser.

DW

I have never understood the whole 3-down, and 110 yard field thing.

 

[HowardHughes]

Wiredforsound...

I'm glad that you can place a label on basically anything!!! I am far from confused - I would say open-minded. I am painfully aware of the past, so I use it to try to shape my outlook on life in general. I don't agree with me having to go to work, and then putting basically 50% of my pay into federal funding of welfare. I wouldn't mind if those on welfare would actually agree to work on government projects in order to earn it - "Workfare" is a term that is used - and I think it is a great idea - anyone is qualified to pick up litter.

The "extortionist payments to Indians" comment is a joke - How much did Manhattan Island go for??? Wasn't it 24 dollars? My point is that the $5 paid to each registered native Canadian was a great idea...in 1885. I am not saying that I support it - only that it exists. You have to drop the anger a bit, and take in what I say with open ears!!!!!

 

[HowardHughes]

And as for Liberia...it would be nice to see Canada get involved with the US in this, but what will likely happen will be that our helicopter(s) won't make it off the tarmac.

Was I the only Canadian embarassed by that?

 

[onthebottom]

It

And as for Liberia...it would be nice to see Canada get involved with the US in this, but what will likely happen will be that our helicopter(s) won't make it off the tarmac.

Was I the only Canadian embarassed by that?

Costs money to live up to your peace keeping obligations, you have money for all sorts of social programs for yourselves why not peace keeping. Given that we insure your national security you should find a way to do your part internationally. To do otherwise is selfish.

OTB

 

[HowardHughes]

OTB,

Read my part about how I feel towards welfare (two posts up).

 

[onthebottom]

I did

OTB,

Read my part about how I feel towards welfare (two posts up).

But your country seems self-possessed with social services at the expense of your G8 obligations. You seem to want to sit at the table with the big boys but have alligator arms when the bill comes.

OTB