Should the US goverment involve itself in Liberia?

[HornyTime]

sigh...here we go again. T

<cut>

I love TERB, but I never knew how hated we were by so many Canadians until I started posting here. So disheartening.

DW

Don't let the bastards get you down. I totally support US intervention, and I think most do. When these columns hit TERB the silent majority, is by definition silent, only the -ve people speak.

I can't imagine why anyone would be opposed to saving lives. If someone was trying to kill me, I'd call for help. I'd accept help from anyone!

HT

 

[shiftee]

Re: Why unification is "nice".

Hope this will answer your inquiry on why it would be "nice" to have a unified country.

Fichte: To The German Nation, 1806:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1806fichte.html

Fichte: To The German Nation, 1807:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1807fichte1.html

Johann Gottfried von Herder:
Materials for the Philosophy of the History of Mankind, 1784:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1784herder-mankind.html

Richard Price:
The Discourse on the Love of Country, 1789:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1789price-patriotism.html

Subdave, I want your view. Not theirs. And we are not talking about any country. We are talking about China,Korea, and um...South Asia?!?!?

 

[shiftee]

As usual, we are called upon to help other nations when no one else can or will. Our soldiers will go there, and our soldiers will die. And when all is said and done you will still be talking shit about us.

I love TERB, but I never knew how hated we were by so many Canadians until I started posting here. So disheartening.

DW [/B][/QUOTE]

I am a Canadian. I do not hate Americans. I enjoy your country as a visitor. I enjoy your culture. I cannot think of a better neighbour. Except for maybe Sweden......

 

[submissivedave]

I don' think the US should go into Africa.

I think that the best the US can do for Africa is to not do anything and let them solve their problems. The more the US intervenes in Africa, the worst they will make it. This is also true for UK and French intervention in their former colonies.

300 years ago, there was a scramble for Africa for it's men for slaves. Three hundred years later, we still see a scramble for Africa for its natural resources. One of the best example of foreign exploitation in Africa is Royal Dutch Shell who set up oil refinaries on precious Nigeria farm lands. Shell also bribes the Nigeria Army to scare the people away so they can't do shit about it. Yet, many Nigerians, especially women rely on farming for their livelihoods ...

If you leave the Africans alone, I am sure something will happen. A great man will arise to lead their people like Ken Saro-Wiwa ...

I mean, why can't people just leave other people alone? The more you intervene, their worst you will make it. If you really care about them, just let them do their own thing ... And yes, a policy of no policy is a policy. So when you think you are doing nothing, you are actually doing something ...

Another thing is, even today, many mediums portray Africans as "inferior" people. Where as African-Americans are depicted as being "better" then Africans because they have received the blessing, the glory, th massiah of a superior American upbrining. Sheesh ... this is especially true from things outta Hollywood.

DenWa: I am sure many Canadians do not hate Americans. In fact, Canadians and Americans are best of friends. What most Canadians are against are American policies and administrations ...

 

[shiftee]

I don' think the US should go into Africa.

If you leave the Africans alone, I am sure something will happen.

Isn't that what happened in Rwanda. They were left alone and something happened?

 

[submissivedave]

For "shiftee" ...

What I think unification is "nice"?

Well, it is a great thing for a people of common culture, heritage, ancestry, etc. etc. to have their own piece of land to call home. The Jews have been fighting for such a place for centuries. Their dreams have not been realized until the foundation of Israel, although many will argue the political bargaining of the Americans after the war to have Israel where it is; in the Middle East.

As for my personal "philosophy" of why it is nice to have a unified China, Korea and South Asia, well ... let's just say that these countries are torn apart due to political issues which weren't to their (the countries) own likings.

China and Korea: These two countries can be classified in the same category. It all boils down to a political vacuum when the foreigners left China and Korea.

In China, the Nationalist were the original founders of New (Republican) China. In fact, many Communists once worked for the Nationalist government. However, they had a difference in ideoloy and on how to rebuild China after the collapse of the Ching Empire. And why would I include Mongolia? It's because it has always been part of the Chinese Empire. They gained independence because the Russians were interested in having a buffer zone between the mass borders shared with the Chinese.

As for Korea, the same can be said. The political vacuum started when the Japanese left, yet, attitudes differed among different groups of people on how to liberate Korea from the Japanese. And since the Korean War is not yet officially over, we can still see that there is a difference in poltical ideologies on how to govern Korea.

South Asia: During the Mughal Empire, Muslims and Hindus lived side by side happily. Although South Asia was ruled by a Muslim King, they were very liberal in embracing and fusing the who cultures. It is only due to colonialism that South Asia has been divided into Pakistan, India and Bangledesh ... If the English had not intervened in South Asia, I am sure that Muslims and Hindus could still be neighbours instead of trying to fuck each other up ...

 

[DenWa]

We were criticized for not acting in WWII, we're criticized for acting in Iraq, we're criticized for not acting in the N. Korean standoff, we're criticized for Africa before we've even made a decision. In the end, there's still someone standing there waiting for their handout.

On the brighter side, I'm glad you don't all think we're assholes. Thanks for the nice remarks HornyTime. It's not as easy to be American as many think it is. We are asked for a lot, and given little. Especially regarding respect.

 

[Goober Mcfly]

*pats DenWa on the head*

There, there, young man. At least you're not from France.

 

[shiftee]

Thanks Subdave! Finally your own words. I am still confused.

There seems to be some criss crossing from country to nation in your argument. The two are very different. I am sure you are aware of this. Secondly, given the fact that the nation state is constantly evolving, isn't it a little queer to use one historical ( from so long ago) point to prove how something should be now ( bureaucrats from decades ago flipping from one ideology to another)

I could go on but I would just digress.

What about wealthy industrial north Italy (Milan/Florence)
separating from ( rural, backward south Italy (Naples/Rome) Every so often you read about the odd grumble.

 

[HornyTime]

North Korea - backwards, undeveloped, poor, with ideologically brainwashed communist population
South Korea - capitalist, developed, wealthy, strong capitalist ideology.

I don't think these two "countries" could reunify any more. They have been seperate for too long, they have grown into totally different places.

 

[*d*]

Altrusism is not the American way. And so I also question the rationale for US intervention in Liberia, or Africa for that matter. But it seems there are some US interests that justify intervention in Africa, not as much as there was in Iraq, but enough for a possibly military presence. The US, as well as France and Belgium, are already tied politically and militarily to iniquitous realpolitik policies in the regions of Rwanda, Burundi, Uganda, Tanzania and the Congo. Many of the covert interventions of recent history within these regions have been sponsored by the US. And with many African countries having the rarest of minerals found nowhere else for the manufacture of high-tech weapons, I can see why the US has wide eyed interest in this area. Plus, the US is projected to import 25% of it's oil from west Africa by 2015, reducing its reliance on middle east oil and continuing its strategic quest to undermine OPEC's oil pricing hegemony.

d

 

[submissivedave]

North Korea - backwards, undeveloped, poor, with ideologically brainwashed communist population
South Korea - capitalist, developed, wealthy, strong capitalist ideology.

I don't think these two "countries" could reunify any more. They have been seperate for too long, they have grown into totally different places.

What about East Germany and West Germany?

Although the East Germans are not as skilled and well endowed(sp?) as the West Germans, and hence a difference in wages, the German government has been doing "okay" with dealing with these issues of inequility in terms of training and education. Now, I would not call their policies a "success", but they have none the less made a German unification quite successul.

I think that the Chinese and Koreans can learn a thing or two from the Germans. However, culturally and philosophically speaking, the Germans have things and concepts which the Chinese and Koreans do not have. But I do think that there is a common thread which runs through the whole of East Asia, and that is Confucianism.

In fact, the term a "Chinese" does not really tell you anything about a person besides the fact that they are from China. There are many many people who are not "Chinese". I thin the only "real Chinese" are the Hans. Many Chinese in central, western and northern China are Muslims, Turks, Central Asians. Yet, they are classified as Chinese only because their lands were conquered by the Chinese many hundreds of years ago. So theoretically speaking, China is still an empire with a republican shell. Furthermore, these non-Chinese who are Chinese are Chinese because they have had Confucian thought programmed into them when they were conquered way way back.

So I definitely think that China and Taiwan; Noth Korea and South Korea can unify someday because they all have a common culture, history, etc. etc.

Interestingly enought though is, Chinese culture is preserved in Taiwan more then it is on the Mainland. As for the Koreas, I must admit my ignorance on that.

In closing, all I want to state is that, if the people have a will or desire to be unifed, it can be done regardless of the fact that they have been divided for 50 years, regardless of their political environment and regardless of how other countries see them.

Again, Germany is the best example.

 

[CyberGoth]

sigh... I miss the cold war. well at least I got my piece of the Berlin wall to cherish.

happy to see you back SD.
gotta buy you a beer one day at a terb party and talk about history.

cheers

 

[submissivedave]

Holy shit ... you actually have a brick from the Wall? That's pretty cool ...

Thanks CG, I am glad to write to you again

 

[CyberGoth]

not quite a brick, a chip of old 1960s soviet style concrete, with some graphiti on it. its on my workspace.... off to the side. its meaningful to me.

as for liberia.... one word: diamonds another word: strategic placement.

I still think north korea is worth paying attention to, we're sliding slowly towards a clash and its likely to get messy if people dont start THINKING about all this macho-geopolitickal saber rattling bs....

I could swear that I saw george jr. giggle when he announced that saddams 2 sons had "blowed up real good"

what a strange world it is these days.

 

[HowardHughes]

So HornyTime,

I'm really happy to read what you have posted - but riddle me this...

If the US was so "liberal" with African-Americans - what was Martin Luther King doing in the 1960's? Maybe someone should have mentioned to him of his equal rights, and told him that segregated schools and "coloured" bathrooms, spaces in restaurants, water fountains, buses and anything else really didn't exist.

So, I guess you're trying to say that the whole "Million Man March" was simply a whole bunch of people taking an afternoon stroll?

Oh, I forgot, the millions of African-Americans in the US didn't need the right to vote, since they already were making such great gains in the Senate 40 years earlier...sigh...

Believe it or not, Canada does not have a spotless past either - I wonder how many Chinese died while constructing our national railroad...the difference I think between us is that I don't make excuses for our past - I simply have to accept them.

 

[onthebottom]

Just as long

What do I think? Well yeah ... a unified Korea would be nice, a unified China would be nice and a unified South Asia would be nice too ...

as we don't unify North America!

OTB

 

[onthebottom]

I've

If the US is such a great place - why was it commonplace there, and a 100 years after the civil war, that the black population still basically couldn't vote???

Double-checked with a couple of my Black friends and they confirmed to me that they can (and often do) vote. Your information source may be a bit dated.

You are free to go back into your germ free isolation now.

OTB

 

[onthebottom]

Re: Re: Should the US goverment involve itself in Liberia?

Altrusism is not the American way.

d

Never was a more untrue statement made. Your true colors are showing *d*

OTB

 

[onthebottom]

Oh Yeah

Almost forgot to comment on the original post.

I do think the US should help, if for no other reason than we can. It's immoral to watch someone die without trying to help; I think the same can be said on the nation/state level. We all have to look into the mirror and ask if we are doing enough.

OTB