Shooting at Eaton Centre

[fuji]

Now continue to follow history and you'll begin to find an answer.

In short, for a variety of historical reasons, the black community has a cultural problem that it has not really faced up to. Now while the history may make interesting reading, it's really pretty irrelevant. The black community has a problem. It's not the rest of us that have a problem. It's the black community that has a problem. It goes about glorifying thuggery and gangland violence. Its youth opt out of whatever educational and other programs we offer to try and fix the problem. They refuse to co-operate with police when we try and provide better safety and security. It has a horrible sense of entitlement, believing that historic wrongs mean it is now entitled to all kinds of welfare, without any need to take responsibility.

The reality is that community is and has a problem, and needs to step up to the plate. How we got here is a hell of a lot less interesting than where we're going. We aren't going to go back to re-do the last few hundred years. We're going to do the next few hundred years.

So what do you propose as a solution? Racial profiling? I mean, a solution that will actually confront the problem, and not just whine about the history. I am far less interested in what distant ancestor to blame, than in what to do.

And don't give me any bullshit about the problem being racism against blacks, that is just not true. I work with a bunch of blacks who are NOT the thuggish type. They do just fine. They don't face any worse discrimination than Chinese or anybody else. The people who face discrimination are the asshats wearing baggy pants and acting like goons. And they're discriminated against for a damn good reason--they're thieves and thugs.

 

[ogibowt]

In short, for a variety of historical reasons, the black community has a cultural problem that it has not really faced up to. Now while the history may make interesting reading, it's really pretty irrelevant. The black community has a problem. It's not the rest of us that have a problem. It's the black community that has a problem. It goes about glorifying thuggery and gangland violence. Its youth opt out of whatever educational and other programs we offer to try and fix the problem. They refuse to co-operate with police when we try and provide better safety and security. It has a horrible sense of entitlement, believing that historic wrongs mean it is now entitled to all kinds of welfare, without any need to take responsibility.

The reality is that community is and has a problem, and needs to step up to the plate. How we got here is a hell of a lot less interesting than where we're going. We aren't going to go back to re-do the last few hundred years. We're going to do the next few hundred years.

So what do you propose as a solution? Racial profiling? I mean, a solution that will actually confront the problem, and not just whine about the history. I am far less interested in what distant ancestor to blame, than in what to do.

And don't give me any bullshit about the problem being racism against blacks, that is just not true. I work with a bunch of blacks who are NOT the thuggish type. They do just fine. They don't face any worse discrimination than Chinese or anybody else. The people who face discrimination are the asshats wearing baggy pants and acting like goons. And they're discriminated against for a damn good reason--they're thieves and thugs.

when i read this garbage, i get my stomach in knots, because on a base level i know its pure bull shit..my gut tells me this...however im not as articulate as i should be, to adaquetly refute this load of crap....i wish i was smarter, i really do.....but i trust something instinctual in my being that says you have no clue what your talking about...regardless of the fact that you present yourself here as the resident kmow it all on this board

 

[nuprin001]

when i read this garbage, i get my stomach in knots, because on a base level i know its pure bull shit..my gut tells me this...however im not as articulate as i should be, to adaquetly refute this load of crap....i wish i was smarter, i really do.....but i trust something instinctual in my being that says you have no clue what your talking about...regardless of the fact that you present yourself here as the resident kmow it all on this board

Translation: I know it's wrong, but I don't know how I know it's wrong.

That's called a preconception. One that you're not willing to give up.

Now, personally, I'm willing to accept that past wrongs *still* have an effect on the black community. In some cases, a very large one. Unfortunately, the biggest of those wrongs (at least IMO and in the US) was committed by the people the black community continues to support and depend on. More on that later.

Look, there's no denying it: the black community has toxicity. Yes, there's "positive" rap. And if you're going to sit there and tell me it's the best stuff out there or that it isn't *HIGHLY* influenced by old-fashioned gangsta rap, you are clinically retarded, lying to yourself, or son't know the first thing about rap. If you think ANY of these rappers would have a career without NWA, Ice-T, Tupac, Biggie Smalls, all the way to 50 Cent, you're delusional.

What, Will Smith would still be around? His sales were "I don't want to buy my kid that gangsta rap stuff, but I still want to be cool" sales, just as the Beastie Boys was "hey, white guys who look like us can rap, too!" That doesn't mean they weren't good, but their sales were a foil and reaction to 90s gangsta rap.

WRT politics, the biggest disservice to the black community came from trying to help it. I don't know the history in Canada, but in the US part of The Great Society program was to give more money to single mothers. WHICH INCENTIVIZED MOTHERS AND FATHERS NOT TO MARRY OR EVEN CO-HABITATE!!!!!! One of the worst problems in the poor urban community can be traced directly to this kind-hearted but devastating policy.

You would have to be an idiot to think there isn't something wrong with the black community. And it's not what was done maliciously to the black community: it was what the community did to itself and what attempts to help the community did to it.

Excuses don't give you results. Explanations are fine, but you can't let them be excuses.

The secrets to success AREN'T secrets. You literally heard them your entire life. When you mom was chain smoking and she told you not to smoke? She was right. When your dad told you to save your money while he spent like a drunken sailor? He was right. It's DOING the right things to succeed that's the trick, not knowing the "secrets".

 

[Toke]

In short, for a variety of historical reasons, the black community has a cultural problem that it has not really faced up to. Now while the history may make interesting reading, it's really pretty irrelevant. The black community has a problem. It's not the rest of us that have a problem. It's the black community that has a problem. It goes about glorifying thuggery and gangland violence. Its youth opt out of whatever educational and other programs we offer to try and fix the problem. They refuse to co-operate with police when we try and provide better safety and security. It has a horrible sense of entitlement, believing that historic wrongs mean it is now entitled to all kinds of welfare, without any need to take responsibility.

The reality is that community is and has a problem, and needs to step up to the plate. How we got here is a hell of a lot less interesting than where we're going. We aren't going to go back to re-do the last few hundred years. We're going to do the next few hundred years.

So what do you propose as a solution? Racial profiling? I mean, a solution that will actually confront the problem, and not just whine about the history. I am far less interested in what distant ancestor to blame, than in what to do.

And don't give me any bullshit about the problem being racism against blacks, that is just not true. I work with a bunch of blacks who are NOT the thuggish type. They do just fine. They don't face any worse discrimination than Chinese or anybody else. The people who face discrimination are the asshats wearing baggy pants and acting like goons. And they're discriminated against for a damn good reason--they're thieves and thugs.

fuji... you're a small-minded thinker. All you do is repeat the same things and put words in my posts. I asked you to point where I denied 'your facts' and you glossed over that because it will prove your own reading comprehension problem. All the solutions you offer, and the way you offer them, continue to depict an 'us vs them' mentality that does nothing but continue the history of racism. Your last few words says so. Then you go onto 'my black friend' stories to try and prove that you're not what you are... a racist. I'll play into your little game for a minute and ask you this... Since you depict 'blacks' as peoples you you 'offer' and 'give' things to (like they are children) should we not question your 'offers' to fix the problem since they have neither worked or been accepted?

To say history is irrelevant to the present further proves your ignorant view of the world. Methods, inventions, and thoughts that originated thousands of years ago are still very relevant today as they have both persevered and laid the groundwork for the world we live in. You may think you're great enough to pick and choose to acknowledge some historical elements over others, but that is why much of what you say is incomplete. You may somehow think that I refute fact, but your head is completely in the sand about it. You live in a fantasy world.

when i read this garbage, i get my stomach in knots, because on a base level i know its pure bull shit..my gut tells me this...however im not as articulate as i should be, to adaquetly refute this load of crap....i wish i was smarter, i really do.....but i trust something instinctual in my being that says you have no clue what your talking about...regardless of the fact that you present yourself here as the resident kmow it all on this board

fuji is not the resident 'know-it-all', he is the resident 'offerer of opinion'. While the true skill of a debater is to be able to argue both sides of an argument, he is unable to argue his except for one tired and incomplete fact.

 

[lurkerjoe]

In any community there is going to be a cancer. Black white yellow there's always going to be a segment of the population that are thugs and gangsters. In BC east asian and south asian gangs plague that province. In the prairies its the white supremacists and native gangs. In Ontario we have black, asian, native and eastern european gangs. Plus sick, individual, white pyschos (Bernardo, Magnotta, Williams, etc.)

What is different is the mainstream glorification of thuggery and gangsterism. The pressure on a young black male to dress like a thug is enormous or he risk's being called a Carlton Banks. Most grow out of this stupidity but some never get out of this trap and they're the idiots shooting up the Eaton Centre. Until the black community tackles this fact, nothing is going to change. I put it on the black community only because lasting change only happens from within but it's up to the rest of us to support it.

 

[frankcastle]

I think there is a strong connection between income level and education level and marital status of the parents of a child and the parents of the child's peers are strong indicators of whether or not the child will be at risk.

In other words if you are poor, living with one parent, in a low income neighbourhood and your friends are in similar situations you are in for a tough ride.... you might make it out.

The media doesn't help either because the voices saying "get a good education and a job" are drowned out by a cacophony of dangerous, misguided, self serving messages.

Please note that I haven't mentioned race because I've seen at risk kids of all colours in this type of situation struggle.

So if you've made it this far I ask.........

What is the solution? Can we get past the racial arguments and address the fact that there is a problem?

 

[Toke]

In any community there is going to be a cancer. Black white yellow there's always going to be a segment of the population that are thugs and gangsters. In BC east asian and south asian gangs plague that province. In the prairies its the white supremacists and native gangs. In Ontario we have black, asian, native and eastern european gangs. Plus sick, individual, white pyschos (Bernardo, Magnotta, Williams, etc.)

What is different is the mainstream glorification of thuggery and gangsterism. The pressure on a young black male to dress like a thug is enormous or he risk's being called a Carlton Banks. Most grow out of this stupidity but some never get out of this trap and they're the idiots shooting up the Eaton Centre. Until the black community tackles this fact, nothing is going to change. I put it on the black community only because lasting change only happens from within but it's up to the rest of us to support it.

I think there is a strong connection between income level and education level and marital status of the parents of a child and the parents of the child's peers are strong indicators of whether or not the child will be at risk.

In other words if you are poor, living with one parent, in a low income neighbourhood and your friends are in similar situations you are in for a tough ride.... you might make it out.

The media doesn't help either because the voices saying "get a good education and a job" are drowned out by a cacophony of dangerous, misguided, self serving messages.

Please note that I haven't mentioned race because I've seen at risk kids of all colours in this type of situation struggle.

So if you've made it this far I ask.........

What is the solution? Can we get past the racial arguments and address the fact that there is a problem?

You two have just restored my faith in mankind. Thank you. After sparring (one against none) with fuji, it is nice to see that someone(s) can make an intelligent comment and ask the pertinent questions without stating a bare fact and offering a neanderthal-inspired solution.

Thanks boys!!

P.S. I always enjoyed reading anything that frankcastle posts.

 

[fuji]

All the solutions you offer, and the way you offer them, continue to depict an 'us vs them' mentality that does nothing but continue the history of racism.

Bullshit. Absolute bullshit. I'm pointing out the reality of the situation and you simply don't like it. You want to say that the whole state of affairs is someone else's fault, and therefore it's just fine and OK that we have a black community that engages in thuggery and murder. Well it's not OK, and I'm willing to say so. It's a problem. It's a problem in the black community. It's a problem with the black community. It's a problem that community has been unwilling to address, and so it has had to be addressed by others--and usually when you leave problems to be addressed by others, the solutions aren't very friendly or effective.

Quite bluntly if the black community wants not to be racially profiled, the black community ought to stop jacking cars and shooting people.

Then you go onto 'my black friend' stories to try and prove that you're not what you are... a racist.

I did no such thing. I simply pointed out the fact, that I have seen with my own eyes, that when blacks behave like normal people they're treated like normal people. When they show up to a job interview dressed normally, with an education, talking like everybody else, then they're treated like everybody else, they get the job, and they do well. When they walk around like gangsters, drop out of school, and talk like gangsters, then damned skippy they're treated like gangsters.

I'll play into your little game for a minute and ask you this... Since you depict 'blacks' as peoples you you 'offer' and 'give' things to (like they are children) should we not question your 'offers' to fix the problem since they have neither worked or been accepted?

You know what? If you fixed your own problems other people wouldn't have to come along and try and fix them for you. It would be great if we, the rest of us, including the blacks who aren't gangsters, who aren't part of that failure of a community, could just ignore the black community and let them rot in their own self pity, but unfortunately, these gangsters come roaming around in our shopping malls and shoot people. I am not talking about all blacks here, I'm not talking about the sort that have good jobs and made something of themselves, who valued education, and live normal lives. I am talking about these jack-asses in their baggy pants from their broken homes with their mom's and dad's who insist that their little monsters haven't ever done a damn thing wrong in their life.

Who should fix this problem? Plainly, the black community should fix it. Unfortunately it does nothing--so the rest of us are left to try these condescending things that honestly, we'd really rather not have to try.

Cry me a river about the history of racism--it's the history, it's past, it's not really all that relevant in the modern world, other than as some sort of academic explanation of how things got to be so fucked up. But it doesn't really offer much in the way of solutions.

You still haven't given any. I'm giving you one: Racial profiling. It works. Until the community picks itself up from sobbing on the ground about how hard done by it's been, the rest of us should be as pragmatic as we can and crack down.

 

[Toke]

Bullshit. Absolute bullshit. I'm pointing out the reality of the situation and you simply don't like it. You want to say that the whole state of affairs is someone else's fault, and therefore it's just fine and OK that we have a black community that engages in thuggery and murder. Well it's not OK, and I'm willing to say so. It's a problem. It's a problem in the black community. It's a problem with the black community. It's a problem that community has been unwilling to address, and so it has had to be addressed by others--and usually when you leave problems to be addressed by others, the solutions aren't very friendly or effective.

Quite bluntly if the black community wants not to be racially profiled, the black community ought to stop jacking cars and shooting people.



I did no such thing. I simply pointed out the fact, that I have seen with my own eyes, that when blacks behave like normal people they're treated like normal people. When they show up to a job interview dressed normally, with an education, talking like everybody else, then they're treated like everybody else, they get the job, and they do well. When they walk around like gangsters, drop out of school, and talk like gangsters, then damned skippy they're treated like gangsters.



You know what? If you fixed your own problems other people wouldn't have to come along and try and fix them for you. It would be great if we, the rest of us, including the blacks who aren't gangsters, who aren't part of that failure of a community, could just ignore the black community and let them rot in their own self pity, but unfortunately, these gangsters come roaming around in our shopping malls and shoot people. I am not talking about all blacks here, I'm not talking about the sort that have good jobs and made something of themselves, who valued education, and live normal lives. I am talking about these jack-asses in their baggy pants from their broken homes with their mom's and dad's who insist that their little monsters haven't ever done a damn thing wrong in their life.

Who should fix this problem? Plainly, the black community should fix it. Unfortunately it does nothing--so the rest of us are left to try these condescending things that honestly, we'd really rather not have to try.

Cry me a river about the history of racism--it's the history, it's past, it's not really all that relevant in the modern world, other than as some sort of academic explanation of how things got to be so fucked up. But it doesn't really offer much in the way of solutions.

You still haven't given any. I'm giving you one: Racial profiling. It works. Until the community picks itself up from sobbing on the ground about how hard done by it's been, the rest of us should be as pragmatic as we can and crack down.

You play the innocent role, but at the end of your own post (#315) you lump all (even your 'friends') as thugs and thieves. Racist. Notice that I refuse to lump others into a group. History would allow it, but I'd rather let individuals show thier own stripes. Remember, Toronto has very few murders (let alone gun, let alone gang, related murders per year) but you have no problem lumping all into two categories. Tell your 'black' friends that you consider them as such and see what they say.

Edited to note that bold part was misquoted.

 

[frankcastle]

You two have just restored my faith in mankind. Thank you. After sparring (one against none) with fuji, it is nice to see that someone(s) can make an intelligent comment and ask the pertinent questions without stating a bare fact and offering a neanderthal-inspired solution.

Thanks boys!!

P.S. I always enjoyed reading anything that frankcastle posts.

Wow thanks Toke. To be honest sometimes I'm not sure if anyone is reading my posts because sometimes.... I get into it with someone. But other times I feel like I'll make a post but with all the cross talk between people who have broken off into mini arguments it gets lost.

 

[Toke]

Wow thanks Toke. To be honest sometimes I'm not sure if anyone is reading my posts because sometimes.... I get into it with someone. But other times I feel like I'll make a post but with all the cross talk between people who have broken off into mini arguments it gets lost.

Naw man... I've been reading since the days of your travels on Bridgeland. I just now spend more time in the lounge.

 

[frankcastle]

Okay just in case this doesn't shine through the following is sarcasm. I am firmly in the camp of finding solutions as a society. Unfortunately, I don't have a good solution but I believe the solution has to come from a collaborative effort........

Wow I love Fuji's "let them sort out their own problems" solution.

That's like telling poor people to pull up their bootstraps, or a special ed kid to study harder or an ADHD kid to sit down and focus etc etc.

For that matter screw charities, foreign aid.

Heck why am I paying for the obese smoker's medical bills.

 

[frankcastle]

Naw man... I've been reading since the days of your travels on Bridgeland. I just now spend more time in the lounge.

Ah yes..... the place where I wanted my ashes to be spread.

 

[frankcastle]

If bickering on terb has taught me anything is that you won't change a person's mind unless they want you to.

The solution will come by focusing on the youth.

 

[Toke]

If bickering on terb has taught me anything is that you won't change a person's mind unless they want you to.

The solution will come by focusing on the youth.

...and that's why I'm going into teaching.

 

[fuji]

You play the innocent role, but at the end of your own post (#315) you lump all (even your 'friends') as thugs and thieves. Racist.

Nope. I wrote this: The people who face discrimination are the asshats wearing baggy pants and acting like goons. And they're discriminated against for a damn good reason--they're thieves and thugs.

But keep trying, it's a good ploy. Whenever anybody points out this blatantly obvious problem accuse them of being racist. That way you won't actually have to confront the problem itself, you can distract attention by calling all the critics racist. Meanwhile the thuggery, the thieving, the murder will go on. It's a good tactic. Dishonest, but probably effective.

My well employed, educated co-workers do not wear baggy pants and act like goons, and are not discriminated against. Not any worse than any other visible minority, like Chinese, or East Indian.

Remember, Toronto has very few murders (let alone gun, let alone gang, related murders per year) but you have no problem lumping all into two categories.

Yes, it's true that we have a lower crime rate than in the US. We have a much smaller black population here. The violent street crime we do have is mostly attributed to one group...

Once you've gotten over feeling uncomfortable about the facts why don't you tell me what solution you propose, or are you going to stick to calling racist anybody who points out the problem?

 

[fuji]

Wow I love Fuji's "let them sort out their own problems" solution.

If you think that won't be effective, I also proposed racial profiling. What solution do you propose?

I agree "fix your own problem" won't be effective--that community doesn't want to take responsibility for its own issues, so the rest of us will probably have to step up and impose some sort of remedy ourselves. What do you suggest?

 

[FatOne]

The Pound Cake speech was given by Bill Cosby in May 2004 during an NAACP awards ceremony in Washington, D.C., to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the Brown v. Board of Education Supreme Court decision.[1] In it, Cosby was highly critical of members of subsets of the black community in the United States. He criticized the use of African American Vernacular English, the prevalence of single-parent families, the emphasis on frivolous and conspicuous consumption at the expense of necessities, lack of responsibility, and other behaviors.

The speech is often referred to as the "Pound Cake" speech because of the following lines, referencing a particular dessert, pound cake, for comedic effect, while contrasting common criminals with political activists who risked incarceration during the civil rights movement in the 1950s and 1960s:

But these people, the ones up here in the balcony fought so hard. Looking at the incarcerated, these are not political criminals. These are people going around stealing Coca-Cola. People getting shot in the back of the head over a piece of pound cake! And then we all run out and are outraged, 'The cops shouldn't have shot him.' What the hell was he doing with the pound cake in his hand? I wanted a piece of pound cake just as bad as anybody else. And I looked at it and I had no money. And something called parenting said, 'If you get caught with it you’re going to embarrass your mother.' Not 'You're going to get your butt kicked.' No. 'You're going to embarrass your family.'

In the same speech he had praise for the efforts of the Black Muslims in dealing with crime in the cities, saying "When you want to clear your neighborhood out, first thing you do is go get the Black Muslims, bean pies and all. And your neighborhood is then clear." After that statement, he pointed out the police's inability to resolve the crime problem, saying, "The police can't do it." He then had critical remarks for Black Christians' seeming inability to create positive social change for the urban population he was referring to, saying, "I'm telling you Christians, what's wrong with you? Why can't you hit the streets? Why can't you clean it out yourselves?"



Fuck it, easier to blame the crackers.

 

[FatOne]

If MLK were alive today. If some people could travel from the past to the future, they would be disappointed.

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

Fuji isnt racist, he has friends who are black