Shooting at a Florida high school

[wilbur]

Wait - you think that the training to get a concealed carry permit is sufficient to perform under the stress of a school attack? Delusional.

After putting some more thought on the matter, I take back what I wrote about you taking down your picture.

That's because, stereotypes and biases aside, it's representative of a situation where a teacher is confronted by a terrifying life and death situation.

Although she looks terrified, but she in total control of her handgun as her training has kicked in.

She's not trained for armed intervention or figuring out tactical solutions against an armed aggressor. Only that she's trained to react properly to an immediate threat.

There may be teachers (male or female) who have had previous military service or tactical training, and it would be up to them to decide if they want to venture out or not towards a hostile gunman.

Yes, there is a risk of getting shot as the bad guy, but concealed carry volunteers willingly accept that risk.

 

[wilbur]

Oh as for retracting - go fuck yourself.

You remind be of a previously prolific poster who's handle doesn't appear here anymore.

Had tantrums when people disagreed with him.

 

[Smallcock]

Ban all civilian semi auto and hand gun. There is no reason for a civilian to own them .

The right to gun ownership is one of those things that you really don't appreciate until you've lost it. What seemingly "works" in countries other than the US, won't have the same impact in the US. The US is unique in its size, demography, history, and role in the world. It's critical that gun rights remain intact.

 

[danmand]

The right to gun ownership is one of those things that you really don't appreciate until you've lost it. What seemingly "works" in countries other than the US, won't have the same impact in the US. The US is unique in its size, demography, history, and role in the world. It's critical that gun rights remain intact.

Balloney.

 

[essguy_]

I think people need to step back from what looks good in theory to what can practically be done. This applies to both sides of the debate.

Eg: Banning semi-automatics. First of all, this will NEVER happen - but if it did, how would it be implemented? Do you think a buyback like in Australia would work in the U.S.? First of all, where will the money come from to implement this program? - in practical terms - the piggy bank is below empty (and made worse by Trump's spendthrift budget). Secondly - do you think such a measure could ever be implemented without violent displays of civll disobedience (or simply stockpiling them in your basement). So in practical terms - why even go down that route?

Eg: Teachers with guns. Another pie in the sky proposal from an idiotic Presidential placeholder. People like "wilbur" maintain that training could be provided. Again - out of what budget (and this is a serious question when teachers are paid so poorly and books and material budgets are being squeezed)? Further - what sort of training? Specialty Law Enforcement and military train pretty much constantly on things like clearing a room and drills where there are friendlies mixed in with hostiles. And they work in teams. This isn't something you learn over a weekend and that's it.

The most realistic option is one that makes it more difficult to obtain a weapon WITHOUT infringing upon Second Amendment rights for the broader population. So measures like mandatory background checks, limiting gun sales to specialized dealers (not the Walmarts of the US and not via private sales at gun shows), and improving the databases which feed the instant background check (eg: Make it easier to collect red flag warnings). In fact, you could also argue that the background checks should NOT be "instant". This would take some of the responsibility off the FFL holder to conduct a check and force would be gun purchasers to undergo a mandatory waiting period like exists in some States. Lastly - make the laws uniform across the country. NONE of these would infringe upon and second amendment rights.

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

Ban all civilian semi auto and hand gun. There is no reason for a civilian to own them

You have a point, but the NRA and the hardcore right-wing in America will never go along with that

 

[essguy_]

Banning bump stocks is a step in the right direction.

Read again: Trump is proposing to close the gunshow loophole. At least, he's willing to talk about it. The problem with the total closure of the loophole for a lot of people, is that transfering a firearm between two members of the same family appears over the top through a FFL. We don't even have that in Canada. I can sell a non-restricted long gun to my neighbour without telling the RCMP about it.

Key word: Non-restricted. The NRA always pulls out the transfer between family members like it's the most complex problem in the world. It's actually quite simple: have a family exemption. Even Canada has forms which would allow a minor (12 -17) temporary legal permission to use eg: a non-restricted rifle or shotgun (for hunting or target shooting). Even younger than 12 can get an exemption. It's not rocket science.

Oh, and banning bump stocks is an easy way to appear to be doing something. It's actually a big nothing and bump stocks should have been covered under the automatic ban except for clever categorization.

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

Another slogan.... bla bla bla....

That's sure to get you re-elected in the US, where 85 million voters own a handgun.... not!

I think its a little higher then 85 million

 

[danmand]

Nothing of any substantial value can be done about the gun violence in USA. Americans WANT to live in a society where everybody is armed to the teeth with powerful handguns and military style assault weapons. Whenever the predictable tragedies happen ( more than once a week) gun sales increase and people agitate for more guns.

As long as we can keep the gun culture from migrating across our border, it fortunately does not impact us very much that Americans kill each other in shockingly high numbers. Let them.

 

[essguy_]

Nothing of any substantial value can be done about the gun violence in USA. Americans WANT to live in a society where everybody is armed to the teeth with powerful handguns and military style assault weapons. Whenever the predictable tragedies happen ( more than once a week) gun sales increase and people agitate for more guns.

As long as we can keep the gun culture to migrate across our border, it fortunately does not impact us very much that Americans kill each other in shockingly high numbers. Let them.

This is partially true. But more importantly - it's a Constitutional question which will never be resolved in our lifetimes. So the best you can hope for is to try to keep guns out of the hands of psycho's and red-flagged citizens making it harder for them to LEGALLY purchase guns. It's a sad statement - but I think people yearn for the "good old days" when only law abiding citizens or hardened criminals had guns. Since Columbine, it's the fringe of society and random mass shootings that are causing most of the current fear of guns.

 

[wilbur]

I think its a little higher then 85 million

I was being conservative. I've seen figures of 100 million for handguns. When you factor in long guns, half of US households have at least one firearm.


So to claim that 'Americans' want to live in peace or some other idealistic stuff like that, doesn't factor the sheer number of gun owners that vote who will never allow their politicians to actually do that. And that includes Democratic legislators who are not in New England or California who are not foolish enough to get themselves kicked out of office.

 

[malata]

I was being conservative. I've seen figures of 100 million for handguns. When you factor in long guns, half of US households have at least one firearm.


So to claim that 'Americans' want to live in peace or some other idealistic stuff like that, doesn't factor the sheer number of gun owners that vote who will never allow their politicians to actually do that. And that includes Democratic legislators who are not in New England or California who are not foolish enough to get themselves kicked out of office.

perhaps they need more SPs over there, so they're not so uptight

 

[wilbur]

Key word: Non-restricted. The NRA always pulls out the transfer between family members like it's the most complex problem in the world. It's actually quite simple: have a family exemption. Even Canada has forms which would allow a minor (12 -17) temporary legal permission to use eg: a non-restricted rifle or shotgun (for hunting or target shooting). Even younger than 12 can get an exemption. It's not rocket science.

Oh, and banning bump stocks is an easy way to appear to be doing something. It's actually a big nothing and bump stocks should have been covered under the automatic ban except for clever categorization.

Yes, you already mentioned bump stocks, and Trump mentioned a lot more than that.

Trump will get around the concern about the issue of transfers between family members.

And to reiterate, he also proposed raising the age for purchasing semi-auto guns from 18 to 21 years. Plus, he's looking at putting in the resources (money) to enable medical professionals to pass along to the FBI background check database, psychological information that would disqualify people from purchasing a firearm. Obama never succeeded, or oven proposed these measures, so give Trump at least a little bit of credit on these issues.

Trump can bridge the polarisation gap, because those who would be affected know that he doesn't have an ulterior gun grabbing agenda.

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

Ohio Sherriff offers free gun training to teachers thinking just a few dozen would respond, he winds up with over 300 teachers in his class:

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/hundreds-of-teachers-sign-up-for-free-gun-training-in-ohio

An Ohio Sheriff is offering free gun training to teachers in response to the school shooting in Parkland, Florida, that left 17 dead.

Butler County Sheriff Richard Jones told FOX Business’ Liz MacDonald that the response from teachers and school administrators has been overwhelming.

“We thought we’d get 20, 25 signed up. We had 50 within the first hour. We had 100 within two hours, we had three hundred within like five hours. We offered to teachers first, then we start getting calls from a secretary that works in the school, janitors that work in the school,” Jones said.

More schools are beginning to train their educators to access or carry concealed weapons with reports suggesting there are now more than 1,000 school staffers in a dozen states with access to guns in schools spanning 225 districts.

“There’s nowhere you go that you don’t have guns. America, that’s our culture. You are not going to stop crazy people from coming in getting guns but you can stop the carnage in three to four minutes of any shooting,” Jones said.

The Butler County Sheriff said the limit of 300 had been reached for the class.

On Thursday, National Rifle Association CEO Wayne La************ called for armed guards to protect children in schools.

“It should not be easier for a mad man to shoot up a school than a bank or jewelry store or some Hollywood gala. Schools must be the most harden targets in this country,” La************ said during a speech at the Conservative Political Action Conference in National Harbor, Maryland.

Two Ohio state senators have proposed legislation to ban assault weapons throughout the state. Sheriff Jones said the call for a statewide ban on assault weapons is not the answer.

“The school shooting wasn’t an assault weapon. They call these assault rifles. These are single shot rifles that look like assault rifles,” he said, adding that they are no different than .22-caliber pistols

 

[essguy_]

Ohio Sherriff offers free gun training to teachers thinking just a few dozen would respond, he winds up with over 300 teachers in his class:

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/hundreds-of-teachers-sign-up-for-free-gun-training-in-ohio

Granted, there is a lot of misinformation around - but Cruz’s instagram showed photo’s of a box of NATO rounds and what looks like the Smith&Wesson M&P 15 (purchased from Sunrise tactical). There IS a .22 version of this rifle available but that would not be able to shoot the NATO rounds which Cruz had. Audio from the shooting seems to confirm that it was a semi automatic weapon.

So unless that Sherriff has new info, he’s not doing his class any favours by calling the weapon a .22 since it has a only a fraction of the muzzle energy of a NATO round, even though the bullet diameter is similar.
Hope that the rest of the training is more comprehensive.

Left: NATO round. Right: .22 LR

 

[cunning linguist]

Because statistics can be manipulated to mean almost anything you want them to.

It works both ways.

 

[cunning linguist]

How about this deal. The NRA supports sensible restrictions on mentally ill owning guns and federal background checks and the youth will stop exposing the NRA as a disgusting group?

How about this deal? If you don't like guns, don't buy one. I know it's not as sexy as your NRA conspiracy theories, but this is supposed to be an age of understanding, respect and tolerance, right?

 

[canada-man]

 

[canada-man]

http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-industry-funds-nra-2013-1


In its early days, the National Rifle Association was a grassroots social club that prided itself on independence from corporate influence.

While that is still part of the organization's core function, today less than half of the NRA's revenues come from program fees and membership dues.

The bulk of the group's money now comes in the form of contributions, grants, royalty income, and advertising, much of it originating from gun industry sources.

Since 2005, the gun industry and its corporate allies have given between $20 million and $52.6 million to it through the NRA Ring of Freedom sponsor program. Donors include firearm companies like Midway USA, Springfield Armory Inc, Pierce Bullet Seal Target Systems, and Beretta USA Corporation. Other supporters from the gun industry include Cabala's, Sturm Rugar & Co, and Smith & Wesson.

The NRA also made $20.9 million — about 10 percent of its revenue — from selling advertising to industry companies marketing products in its many publications in 2010, according to the IRS Form 990.

Additionally, some companies donate portions of sales directly to the NRA. Crimson Trace, which makes laser sights, donates 10 percent of each sale to the NRA. Taurus buys an NRA membership for everyone who buys one of their guns. Sturm Rugar gives $1 to the NRA for each gun sold, which amounts to millions. The NRA's revenues are intrinsically linked to the success of the gun business.

The NRA Foundation also collects hundreds of thousands of dollars from the industry, which it then gives to local-level organizations for training and equipment purchases.

This shift is key to understanding why a coalition of hunters, collectors and firearm enthusiasts takes the heat for incidents of gun violence, like the shooting massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School, rather than the companies that manufacture and market assault weapons.

The chief trade association for gun manufacturers is the National Shooting Sports Federation, which is, incidentally, located in Newtown, Conn. But the NRA takes front and center after each and every shooting.

"Today's NRA is a virtual subsidiary of the gun industry," said Josh Sugarmann, executive director of the Violence Policy Center. "While the NRA portrays itself as protecting the 'freedom' of individual gun owners, it's actually working to protect the freedom of the gun industry to manufacture and sell virtually any weapon or accessory."

http://www.businessinsider.com/gun-industry-funds-nra-2013-1

 

[shack]

It works both ways.

Yup.