Sankofa Square

[Skoob]

We're not replacing the existing subways with LRTs anyway so your point about people freaking out is meaningless. Let's deal in reality not "what if" scenarios that don't make any sense.





I'm putting words in your mouth because you've been complaining very loudly that the switches on the GO system freeze up a lot. I used your own words to show how ridiculous it would be to bury the GO system to address that issue. Surely, you can see that now?



Feel free to take a drive to Renforth Drive near Centennial Park and see for yourself. Cars are not clogging the area in either the morning or afternoon rush. Buses only travel along Renforth for the 3 schools on it. People generally avoid that street because it's a long and straight 40 zone and perfect to pick off speeders. It's also more convenient to get to the 427, 401, Gardiner / QEW from Burnhamthorpe Road. A subway extension to my area will likely never make financial sense with the low density.



The Sheppard Subway is about 20 years old and its highest ridership was about 50,000 people in 2012. Almost all of the people on Sheppard travel from Don Mills to Sheppard-Yonge. The rest of the stations are very lightly used (~3000 on average a day) despite many current and upcoming condos. Clearly, building a subway does not necessarily make people abandon their cars. Build it and they will come doesn't work outside of the movies.



In a vacuum, subways do move more people around. Yet cities don't exist in vaccums like in video games and multiple modes of transit have to and are used around the world. We already have a reasonably robust subway system at the core of our transit system in Toronto. In 2022, it moved over 200 million people, across 70 KM of track through 70 stations. I haven't been suggesting that it's a perfect system or that we should never build subways again. It's not so much if we need subways, but where do we need to build them to maximize ridership.

Anyway, there's no sense debating this anymore and we've gone off topic long enough.

Obviously we are not replacing subways with LRTs...I was describing the attitude that downtowners have with already having subways...do I need to spell it out for you or do you just want to continue misunderstanding what I'm saying so you can respond with nonesense?

I didn't say anything about burying the GO lines...I was speaking about their reliability in bad weather to illustrate a point...that you clearly missed.

The Sheppard line would have seen more usage if it actually connected somewhere. There's a reason they call it a stub. It should have been extended to Scarborough forming a loop. Proof that no one wants to take bus when there is no subway to get them most of the way.

The highways are jammed with people who don't see the transit system as a viable option. You can bury your head in the sand and look at your neighborhood as the barometer all you want. It does not depict reality for the rest of the city.

I'll say it again...people who don't have to use buses and LRT's are the ones who want them rather than subways because they don't want to pay for something they will not use.
People who have to use buses and LRTs are the ones who want subways.

Which one are you?

 

[Frankfooter]

Alternatively. We could look at it realistically and factually. Factually, John Tory, othwise known as red Tory, is/was not right wing. If you knew how to read budgets you’d know that…

Tory's budgets were right wing by stealth.
He refused to cover for inflation costs to departments which meant they were cut in reality to hold to his 'no tax increase' right wing mantra.
The result was a $1 billion budget whole and crumbling infrastructure with a couple of big, largely unfunded pet projects to make him look good.
Total right winger.

 

[Frankfooter]

Obviously we are not replacing subways with LRTs...I was describing the attitude that downtowners have with already having subways...do I need to spell it out for you or do you just want to continue misunderstanding what I'm saying so you can respond with nonesense?

I didn't say anything about burying the GO lines...I was speaking about their reliability in bad weather to illustrate a point...that you clearly missed.

The Sheppard line would have seen more usage if it actually connected somewhere. There's a reason they call it a stub. It should have been extended to Scarborough forming a loop. Proof that no one wants to take bus when there is no subway to get them most of the way.

The highways are jammed with people who don't see the transit system as a viable option. You can bury your head in the sand and look at your neighborhood as the barometer all you want. It does not depict reality for the rest of the city.

I'll say it again...people who don't have to use buses and LRT's are the ones who want them rather than subways because they don't want to pay for something they will not use.
People who have to use buses and LRTs are the ones who want subways.

Which one are you?

Now you want the 401 and QEW replaced with subways?
How about more funding for GO lines?

 

[explorerzip]

attitude that downtowners have with already having subways...

How many downtowners are in Toronto? Is it 300K, 400K, 500K? Have you personally conducted surveys with those people? Who qualifies as a downtowner then? Anyone living about 10 mins from a subway station (even in the suburbs) could be called a downtowner. Do you think that those hundreds of thousands maybe millions of people have the same attitude and unable to think clearly about the pros and cons of subways vs LRT? You've certainly proven then you're unable to think.

I didn't say anything about burying the GO lines...I was speaking about their reliability in bad weather to illustrate a point...that you clearly missed.

You clearly missed that I agreed with your point in principle about bad weather. Bad weather does cause reliability problems yet it's also a relatively small issue. I listed many other issues that cause reliabiliy and speed problems in the streetcar / LRT systems yet you didn't reply to any of any of them. Bad weather is clearly more important to you.

The Sheppard line would have seen more usage if it actually connected somewhere. There's a reason they call it a stub. It should have been extended to Scarborough forming a loop. Proof that no one wants to take bus when there is no subway to get them most of the way.

The Sheppard line does connect to Fairview Mall and the 404 next to it. That's why almost all of the ridership comes from that station. I was talking about the middle stations like Bessarion that see ~3000 people. There's no way to know why so few people use that station. Perhaps those people can't use the subway to where they're going. What I can see is that the station building is in an weird spot on its own and faces away from the condo buildings. This is a big city planning fail because they didn't work with developers when designing the neighborhood. The line should have connected Yonge and Allen Road, which would connect the Yonge and University lines. I think there are plans to extend the line East and West though . It would be expensive, but subways would be the right choice in this case because it would reduce transfers.

The existing subway lines end in stubs. Kipling, Kennedy, Vaughan and Finch all end in parking lots / hydro corridors. For many decades, those stations had few if any high density buildings near them.

None of this is proof that no one wants to take a bus when there's no subway to get them most of the way. You clearly have no idea what proof even is.

The highways are jammed with people who don't see the transit system as a viable option. You can bury your head in the sand and look at your neighborhood as the barometer all you want. It does not depict reality for the rest of the city.

I can only speak to and think about my own experiences. That's the same for you. The reality is that you can't conclude that most of the people in the city feel a certain way about transit. That's just absurd.

I'll say it again...people who don't have to use buses and LRT's are the ones who want them rather than subways because they don't want to pay for something they will not use.
People who have to use buses and LRTs are the ones who want subways.

Which one are you?

I already pointed out the many cons of the existing streetcar system and hope they don't repeat them with the LRT lines. That doesn't mean that those problems are impossible to fix or that I'm totally against LRT. As with everything, it depends on how the system gets built and operates.

 

[Skoob]

Now you want the 401 and QEW replaced with subways?
How about more funding for GO lines?

Is this the part where you start making shit up about what people say?
Just checking.

 

[Skoob]

How many downtowners are in Toronto? Is it 300K, 400K, 500K? Have you personally conducted surveys with those people? Who qualifies as a downtowner then? Anyone living about 10 mins from a subway station (even in the suburbs) could be called a downtowner. Do you think that those hundreds of thousands maybe millions of people have the same attitude and unable to think clearly about the pros and cons of subways vs LRT? You've certainly proven then you're unable to think.



You clearly missed that I agreed with your point in principle about bad weather. Bad weather does cause reliability problems yet it's also a relatively small issue. I listed many other issues that cause reliabiliy and speed problems in the streetcar / LRT systems yet you didn't reply to any of any of them. Bad weather is clearly more important to you.



The Sheppard line does connect to Fairview Mall and the 404 next to it. That's why almost all of the ridership comes from that station. I was talking about the middle stations like Bessarion that see ~3000 people. There's no way to know why so few people use that station. Perhaps those people can't use the subway to where they're going. What I can see is that the station building is in an weird spot on its own and faces away from the condo buildings. This is a big city planning fail because they didn't work with developers when designing the neighborhood. The line should have connected Yonge and Allen Road, which would connect the Yonge and University lines. I think there are plans to extend the line East and West though . It would be expensive, but subways would be the right choice in this case because it would reduce transfers.

The existing subway lines end in stubs. Kipling, Kennedy, Vaughan and Finch all end in parking lots / hydro corridors. For many decades, those stations had few if any high density buildings near them.

None of this is proof that no one wants to take a bus when there's no subway to get them most of the way. You clearly have no idea what proof even is.



I can only speak to and think about my own experiences. That's the same for you. The reality is that you can't conclude that most of the people in the city feel a certain way about transit. That's just absurd.



I already pointed out the many cons of the existing streetcar system and hope they don't repeat them with the LRT lines. That doesn't mean that those problems are impossible to fix or that I'm totally against LRT. As with everything, it depends on how the system gets built and operates.

The Eglinton LRT has taken well over a decade to complete and it's still not finished with no completion date in sight. Horrifically over budget. One day, it will be finished and we will have a streetcar line. That's all.
We could have had more subways that would require less maintenance over time and provide more efficient travel.

The Sheppard line would be used more if it went somewhere. It's not all about the stops. It's about where it can take you. It would be a viable route for anyone living in the north east end of the city.

Proof that people like buses over subways? You're kidding right?

 

[explorerzip]

The Eglinton LRT has taken well over a decade to complete and it's still not finished with no completion date in sight. Horrifically over budget. One day, it will be finished and we will have a streetcar line. That's all.
We could have had more subways that would require less maintenance over time and provide more efficient travel.

The Sheppard line would be used more if it went somewhere. It's not all about the stops. It's about where it can take you. It would be a viable route for anyone living in the north east end of the city.

Proof that people like buses over subways? You're kidding right?

After all this, you still can't think for yourself. Never mind then. End of discussion.

 

[Anbarandy]

After all this, you still can't think for yourself. Never mind then. End of discussion.

Never did. Never even attempted to. Never could. Never capable of. Never ever will.

Like his mentor, guru and Svengali, that is why he always ends up:

 

[basketcase]

I'm really not interested in frivolities, Sankofa is associated with the Akan tribe whom provided the English ships with slaves. And changing New Berlin to Kitchener was the height of mendacity. Lord Kitchener was a mass murderer who first used concentration camps during the Boer War. The inmates of these South African camps were mainly Afrikaner women and children. Why keep him and discard Henry Dundas? And what's wrong with calling Yonge/Dundas Sq, Terry Fox Square.

Thanks for admitting it wasn't the name of the tribe but rather an extremely positive concept from their language. The idea of learning from the past applies just as much to western society as it does an African tribe involved in the slave trade.


And your Terry Fox suggestion shows that you're okay with name changes but simply want the right to approve them yourself rather than our elected representatives.

 

[basketcase]

No, of course not. However....The Hummingbird Centre was originally the O'Keefe centre, and has had about 5 changes since. Rogers's Centre should have remained Sky Dome. Change isn't always a good thing nor is always a bad thing. What I'm specifically saying is the rush to rename things like Ryerson because of some of the horrible shit they did. And they did horrible shit. But, what I think is better is to remind people of Canada's dark (and not so distant) history. Ryerson set up the public education system in Ontario. He also was the architect for the residential schools. I think it is important that people understand he did both things, one to be applauded, on to be forever tarnished.
...

Part of history is in interpretation. Ryerson was celebrated for a century only for his positive contributions and anyone interested in history (rather than social media) still acknowledges the positives. The modern perspective has changed so that our past leaders no longer get a pass for their wrongs.

Maybe it's just me but if someone is going to recognized in such prominent positions like having one of the major Canadian Universities named after him, the positives should far outweigh the negatives.

As for Yonge-Dundas/Sankofa Square, the thing has only been around for 20 years, hardly a compelling history that needs to be maintained.

 

[basketcase]

Chow was lucky to have the province bail her out. ...

Considering much the traffic on the Gardiner and DVP are 905ers...

 

[basketcase]

Toronto doesn't even make the top 10 list of best subway systems in the world. We used to be #1 decades ago.
Paris has 14 subway lines and 380 stations. LRT is in addition to that.
...

I wonder if that has anything to do with the righties being fixated on keeping taxes down?

 

[Frankfooter]

The Eglinton LRT has taken well over a decade to complete and it's still not finished with no completion date in sight. Horrifically over budget. One day, it will be finished and we will have a streetcar line. That's all.
We could have had more subways that would require less maintenance over time and provide more efficient travel.

The Sheppard line would be used more if it went somewhere. It's not all about the stops. It's about where it can take you. It would be a viable route for anyone living in the north east end of the city.

Proof that people like buses over subways? You're kidding right?

You think a subway, that would have needed way more tunnelling, would have been faster to build?
Why did DoFo take over Metrolinx and why is it now slower to build anything?

 

[wigglee]

How about Johnny Bower Place !

 

[dvous11]

Naming anything after a person is tricky.
At any point in the future, the virtue signaling self-designated high moral authority radical Left can come after anyone and try to cancel them for any reason they see fit at the time in the name of momentary social justice.
Give it 20-30 years....the downtown Square will be renamed again after the political pendulum swings once more.

 

[Skoob]

After all this, you still can't think for yourself. Never mind then. End of discussion.

Well that's nonsensical response.
A leftist trait for that matter...throw an insult and decide when the conversation is over.

I can almost make that happen on demand and it's actually funny.

 

[Skoob]

Considering much the traffic on the Gardiner and DVP are 905ers...

Well then city council should have done something about that a long time ago. But I think they realized that people outside of Toronto help support Toronto and it would cutting their nose to spite their face.

 

[Skoob]

I wonder if that has anything to do with the righties being fixated on keeping taxes down?

Taxes are not the problem...financial management of the taxes is and has always been the problem.

 

[Skoob]

You think a subway, that would have needed way more tunnelling, would have been faster to build?
Why did DoFo take over Metrolinx and why is it now slower to build anything?

More tunneling and less surface disruption. Less impact on existing commuters and businesses along Eglinton. Less maintenance over time. Less maintenance means better service for commuters.
And in the end we have a subway, not a streetcar. No one will abandon their car for a streetcar that doesn't improve their daily commute.

Metrolinx was created in 2006 by the Ontario Liberals. Eglinton Crosstown started in 2011 under the Ontario Liberals. Liberals were in power until 2018.

Trying to somehow blame DoFo for 15 years of Liberal dysfunction is funny...and futile.

 

[Frankfooter]

More tunneling and less surface disruption. Less impact on existing commuters and businesses along Eglinton. Less maintenance over time. Less maintenance means better service for commuters.
And in the end we have a subway, not a streetcar. No one will abandon their car for a streetcar that doesn't improve their daily commute.

Metrolinx was created in 2006 by the Ontario Liberals. Eglinton Crosstown started in 2011 under the Ontario Liberals. Liberals were in power until 2018.

Trying to somehow blame DoFo for 15 years of Liberal dysfunction is funny...and futile.

DoFo took over Metrolinx, he owns its failures now.
Deal.

Its your theory, tell us the difference in price and construction time between LRT and subway.
Then compare maintenance costs globally.
Prove that you're not just trolling.

Until then there is no point to taking your posts seriously.