Sankofa Square

[Skoob]

Yes, they do have great subway systems and also investing in LRTs even though its supposedly 1920s technology in your words.

You've also deliberately misrepresented the whole TTC network as the there are bus and streetcar routes almost everywhere. Just about any area of the city including the suburbs is about a 10 minute walk from a bus stop. You can easily prove that to yourself using Google Maps. Again, I agree with you that the sreetcar and bus experience leaves much to be desired.

What's exactly different about the climate in Toronto? Here we are a few days before Christmas and the grass is still green. Generally, the Toronto winters have been getting milder and less severe. When we've had heavy snowfall, it usually melts within in a few days. If the climate is such a big problem in Toronto, then why are there no calls to bury the above ground sections of the subway or the whole GO train network? Snow and ice is not some insurmountable problem unique to Toronto.

Since Rob Ford supposedly saved the most in history, then why weren't those savings used to improve the speed and reliability of the streetcar system? Why also weren't those savings used to cover 100% of the cost of the Scarborough subway? Instead we find ourselves with a tax increase to pay for it.

I did not misrepresent anything. It was a straight pictorial comparison for subways. Not buses, bike Lanes, Or anything else.
Every winter almost on a daily basis there are signal issues due to freezing on the GO lines. Streetcar tracks and the concrete that supports them are always being replaced much more than any subway tracks.
The only people who hate the thought of building subways are the people who already have them. If those subways were replaced with buses, they would riot.

 

[Skoob]

If go

That's not the point he's been trying to make and you know better. We did extend the subway to a Walmart parking lot in Vaughn and to Fairview Mall. The ridership numbers are still very low but at least the area is starting filling in with offices and condos.

If good transit is in place, people will want to live in proximity. That's how it works.
People want rapid transit. No one wants to spend hours on buses and streetcars. If more subways would be built, that would be the biggest motivator for people to use public transit over driving cars.

"I gave up my car so I could take a bus to work and increase my commute time!" ...said no one ever.

 

[Anbarandy]

If LRTs replaced the existing subway system, you and your downtown friends would start burning cars in the streets.
It's that typical liberal arrogance shining through. i.e. as long as we get good stuff everyone else can and should settle for 2nd best.

But remember, Toronto has lots of money to throw at things so it's not a money issue remember?

The only people opposed to building subways are the downtowners who already have them. They could care less about anything outside the core. They feel that everyone should just settle for 2nd best. Total arrogance.

I did not misrepresent anything. It was a straight pictorial comparison for subways. Not buses, bike Lanes, Or anything else.
Every winter almost on a daily basis there are signal issues due to freezing on the GO lines. Streetcar tracks and the concrete that supports them are always being replaced much more than any subway tracks.
The only people who hate the thought of building subways are the people who already have them. If those subways were replaced with buses, they would riot.

If go

If good transit is in place, people will want to live in proximity. That's how it works.
People want rapid transit. No one wants to spend hours on buses and streetcars. If more subways would be built, that would be the biggest motivator for people to use public transit over driving cars.

"I gave up my car so I could take a bus to work and increase my commute time!" ...said no one ever.

In addition to the $8billion that Chairman Chow shook down from Douggie, she just reaped another windfall of $471million from the Feds for housing:

Ottawa to give $471 million to Toronto in housing deal | CP24.com

My. oh my. What Rob 'n' Doug, Long Done Tory and their right-wing, center-right council majorities would never accomplish during the 12-year reign of ruin over Toronto, Chairman Chow accomplishes in just half a year.

It's so clear, why the red scorpion Chow's success so triggers the Canadian chapter of MAGA.

 

[Skoob]

In addition to the $8billion that Chairman Chow shook down from Douggie, she just reaped another windfall of $471million from the Feds for housing:

Ottawa to give $471 million to Toronto in housing deal | CP24.com

My. oh my. What Rob 'n' Doug, Long Done Tory and their right-wing, center-right council majorities would never accomplish during the 12-year reign of ruin over Toronto, Chairman Chow accomplishes in just half a year.

It's so clear, why the red scorpion Chow's success so triggers the Canadian chapter of MAGA.

In other words, DoFo and the provincial government have worked collaboratively with the city, each having a stake across all levels of government and culminating in a Toronto bail out.
Must irritate you when things go against your narrative eh?

btw do the Feds just copy everyone else and pretend they know what they're doing?
https://mariannemeedward.ca/to-buil...ng-faster-fund-expanding-strong-mayor-powers/

 

[Anbarandy]

In other words, DoFo and the provincial government have worked collaboratively with the city, each having a stake across all levels of government and culminating in a Toronto bail out.
Must irritate you when things go against your narrative eh?

btw do the Feds just copy everyone else and pretend they know what they're doing?
https://mariannemeedward.ca/to-buil...ng-faster-fund-expanding-strong-mayor-powers/

Flip-flop, flippity-floppity .......

...... it was just about 6 months ago that Mr. Collaborative and Mr. Congeniality was ranting and railing that red commie, soon-to-be mayor Chairman Chow would be an "unmitigated disaster for Toronto" as mayor. Flip-flop, flippity-floppity to the present where now Mr. I Got Hoodwinked is now singing the praises of the unmitigated disaster of having a red commie, Chairman Chow as mayor.

Mr. Flip-flop has gone full on red commie all of a sudden.

Mr. Painted Himself Into A Corner has been exposed as so corrupt, inept and sleazy that Chairman Chow beats him like drum.

 

[Skoob]

Flip-flop, flippity-floppity .......

...... it was just about 6 months ago that Mr. Collaborative and Mr. Congeniality was ranting and railing that red commie, soon-to-be mayor Chairman Chow would be an "unmitigated disaster for Toronto" as mayor. Flip-flop, flippity-floppity to the present where now Mr. I Got Hoodwinked is now singing the praises of the unmitigated disaster of having a red commie, Chairman Chow as mayor.

Mr. Flip-flop has gone full on red commie all of a sudden.

Mr. Painted Himself Into A Corner has been exposed as so corrupt, inept and sleazy that Chairman Chow beats him like drum.

She and council haven't done anything yet other than beg for handouts and throw money at renaming a square while crying poor.

Kinda like when Chow and her husband lived in subsidized housing while making big salaries.

And like the commie that she is, relies on other people's money for everything.

 

[Anbarandy]

She and council haven't done anything yet other than beg for handouts and throw money at renaming a square while crying poor.

Kinda like when Chow and her husband lived in subsidized housing while making big salaries.

And like the commie that she is, relies on other people's money for everything.

Basic factual civic history:

She picked Mr. Collaborative's pockets to the tune $8billion while tossing the Gardiner and the DVP onto his ample thighs in addition to setting the city on the course of a more sustainable fiscal and financial footing, all in just 6 months, that right-wing, center-right mayors and council majorities not only failed to, but actually were the direct cause of driving Toronto to the precipice of the fiscal, budgetary financial cliff through their 12 plus years of reign of ruin.

Basic personal history:

She lived in a market priced unit.

Basic political history:

A much more competent and results-oriented mayor, unlike the 2 incompetents that preceded her.


The ethos of divisiveness, ineptitude and downright factual misrepresentation that you display is the hallmark of a Canadian MAGA extremist.

 

[explorerzip]

I did not misrepresent anything. It was a straight pictorial comparison for subways. Not buses, bike Lanes, Or anything else.
Every winter almost on a daily basis there are signal issues due to freezing on the GO lines. Streetcar tracks and the concrete that supports them are always being replaced much more than any subway tracks.
The only people who hate the thought of building subways are the people who already have them. If those subways were replaced with buses, they would riot.

Frank did not say that he wants LRTs to replace the existing subway system. That statement is absurd and a total misrepresentation.

It's true that signals freeze, but suggesting that's it happens anywhere near a daily basis is also a misrepresentation. If freezing is such a big problem, then why isn't their calls to bury all of the GO train network? It "might" have something to do with the enormous cost of burying over 600KM of track for an intermittent freezing problem. I have no doubt that streetcar tracks need to be replaced more than subway tracks. Again, it has to do with how run down we've let the TTC become. So they make do with substandard equipment that does not last.

There isn't a faction that hates the thought of building subways to the suburbs because they already have them. What Frank's been saying is that it does not make financial sense to build a subway to low density areas. I think the Scarborough subway would not have been so controversial if the government said they were working with developers to build high density buildings at every station or even right above each station. Planning for that takes long-term vision though and successive administrations proved they have none.

What you fail to grasp is that the subways don't work by themselves. Buses, streetcars, etc all service the subway system. All the cities you rhymed off have extensive bus and tram networks. Even Hong Kong has tons of double-decker buses. They take it one step further by having a huge number of mini-buses that carry 16-19 people around.

If good transit is in place, people will want to live in proximity. That's how it works.
People want rapid transit. No one wants to spend hours on buses and streetcars. If more subways would be built, that would be the biggest motivator for people to use public transit over driving cars.

"I gave up my car so I could take a bus to work and increase my commute time!" ...said no one ever.

Yes, if good transit is in place then people will want to live closer to it. That's exactly why there's a lot of condo buildings going up along Eglinton and highway 7 where the Viva bus runs.

 

[explorerzip]

Which proves that being a career complainer is an insufficient background for actual decision making and sound management.

P.s. Why is Chow's English still so bad? She's been in Canada since 1970, and grew up in Hong Kong during British rule. Maybe she has a learning disability? She did flunk Grade 3 and was a slow learner. Good choice, Toronto! Apparently, she can paint. Maybe she can save the City some money by painting all the new signage!

That must mean that Doug can only work with people at his level

What a stupid comment.

 

[JohnLarue]

you got this part right

the unmitigated disaster of having a red commie, Chairman Chow as mayor.

everything else you posted was childish gibberish

 

[Frankfooter]

If LRTs replaced the existing subway system, you and your downtown friends would start burning cars in the streets.
It's that typical liberal arrogance shining through. i.e. as long as we get good stuff everyone else can and should settle for 2nd best.

But remember, Toronto has lots of money to throw at things so it's not a money issue remember?

You mean the way people are so happy the Scarborough LRT is gone now?
Next you're going to argue that we should have escalators on every hill in the burbs cuz we have lots in buildings downtown and its just not fair.

 

[explorerzip]

The latest is that Mike Fenton who chairs the board responsible for the square has just resigned. I agree with him that there should have been much more public consultation on this issue.

Toronto, Canada and Global Breaking News – CP24

Most recent News stories and video from CP24

www.cp24.com

 

[Skoob]

Basic factual civic history:

She picked Mr. Collaborative's pockets to the tune $8billion while tossing the Gardiner and the DVP onto his ample thighs in addition to setting the city on the course of a more sustainable fiscal and financial footing, all in just 6 months, that right-wing, center-right mayors and council majorities not only failed to, but actually were the direct cause of driving Toronto to the precipice of the fiscal, budgetary financial cliff through their 12 plus years of reign of ruin.

Basic personal history:

She lived in a market priced unit.

Picked who's pockets? It's all taxpayer money. She was bailed out. No one is saving any money...it has just been moved to provincial and federal taxes to pay for it that's all. I would have been impressed if she actually saved money but that goes against the socialist ideology where everyone else's money pays for stuff. At least Toronto voters love DoFo now so you can guarantee he'll get elected again. A page taken from the Liberal playbook no less. Brilliant!

"market priced unit"? hahahaha the lengths you commies go to cover for each other is comical...


Chow’s co-op controversy

They in fact lived in a federally subsidized, co-op apartment building and paid a modest rent of $800-a-month for their three-bedroom-plus-den apartment, considering they had a combined income, 24 years ago, of $120,000 annually.

Based on the premise families should pay no more than 30% of their income on rent, Kerr observed, a family of five or six with an annual income of $40,000 to $50,000 would have been able to carry the $800-a-month apartment, Chow and Layton were occupying.

Layton was troubled by all this. He told Kerr he had struggled with his conscience about staying in the apartment.

https://torontosun.com/2014/03/22/chows-co-op-controversy

 

[Skoob]

Frank did not say that he wants LRTs to replace the existing subway system. That statement is absurd and a total misrepresentation.

It's true that signals freeze, but suggesting that's it happens anywhere near a daily basis is also a misrepresentation. If freezing is such a big problem, then why isn't their calls to bury all of the GO train network? It "might" have something to do with the enormous cost of burying over 600KM of track for an intermittent freezing problem. I have no doubt that streetcar tracks need to be replaced more than subway tracks. Again, it has to do with how run down we've let the TTC become. So they make do with substandard equipment that does not last.

There isn't a faction that hates the thought of building subways to the suburbs because they already have them. What Frank's been saying is that it does not make financial sense to build a subway to low density areas. I think the Scarborough subway would not have been so controversial if the government said they were working with developers to build high density buildings at every station or even right above each station. Planning for that takes long-term vision though and successive administrations proved they have none.

What you fail to grasp is that the subways don't work by themselves. Buses, streetcars, etc all service the subway system. All the cities you rhymed off have extensive bus and tram networks. Even Hong Kong has tons of double-decker buses. They take it one step further by having a huge number of mini-buses that carry 16-19 people around.



Yes, if good transit is in place then people will want to live closer to it. That's exactly why there's a lot of condo buildings going up along Eglinton and highway 7 where the Viva bus runs.

Frank lives downtown...he has subways and many things are in walking distance within the core. He could care less about anything outside of downtown. My point, that you clearly missed in your haste to rush to his defence, is that if downtown had to deal with LTRs instead of subways, they would be crying for subways. But apparently, for everyone else, it's ok?
No one likes buses or streetcars.
It was expensive when Toronto invested in subways back then, and it is expensive now. The way the government burns money on other things, arguing how expensive this would be to build is ridiculous.

Obviously the signals freeze on days when the weather is bad. Not everyday. But when it happens, thousands of people are affected.
The Eglinton Crosstown will be useless once all the condo development is built. There will be high density and a street car. Slow as hell, susceptible to weather, and when they eventually have to replace the tracks and concrete like they regularly do on other streetcar lines, people that depend on that line will be screwed. There will be way more people and no service.

Toronto will never fix the congestion problem and convince people to abandon their cars without more subways. You can't dispute that.

 

[princekwekua]

I defer to you. You know better than Wikipedia, is that why they call Accra the Gold Coast?

Accra is just the capital. They named the whole country Gold Coast because of abundance of Gold brought by the Akans. Only after independence in 1957 was it changed to Ghana

 

[Frankfooter]

Frank lives downtown...he has subways and many things are in walking distance within the core. He could care less about anything outside of downtown. My point, that you clearly missed in your haste to rush to his defence, is that if downtown had to deal with LTRs instead of subways, they would be crying for subways. But apparently, for everyone else, it's ok?
No one likes buses or streetcars.
It was expensive when Toronto invested in subways back then, and it is expensive now. The way the government burns money on other things, arguing how expensive this would be to build is ridiculous.

Obviously the signals freeze on days when the weather is bad. Not everyday. But when it happens, thousands of people are affected.
The Eglinton Crosstown will be useless once all the condo development is built. There will be high density and a street car. Slow as hell, susceptible to weather, and when they eventually have to replace the tracks and concrete like they regularly do on other streetcar lines, people that depend on that line will be screwed. There will be way more people and no service.

Toronto will never fix the congestion problem and convince people to abandon their cars without more subways. You can't dispute that.

Buses and streetcars are fine, downtown we have LRT's on Spadina, St Clair and Queens Quay. We love them. The subways were good but they are now dirty and breakdown all the time, still faster but with the provincial cuts to social services they double as homeless shelters.
Skoob wants a gold escalator and a gold toilet too.

 

[explorerzip]

Frank lives downtown...he has subways and many things are in walking distance within the core. He could care less about anything outside of downtown. My point, that you clearly missed in your haste to rush to his defence, is that if downtown had to deal with LTRs instead of subways, they would be crying for subways. But apparently, for everyone else, it's ok?
No one likes buses or streetcars.
It was expensive when Toronto invested in subways back then, and it is expensive now. The way the government burns money on other things, arguing how expensive this would be to build is ridiculous.

Obviously the signals freeze on days when the weather is bad. Not everyday. But when it happens, thousands of people are affected.
The Eglinton Crosstown will be useless once all the condo development is built. There will be high density and a street car. Slow as hell, susceptible to weather, and when they eventually have to replace the tracks and concrete like they regularly do on other streetcar lines, people that depend on that line will be screwed. There will be way more people and no service.

Toronto will never fix the congestion problem and convince people to abandon their cars without more subways. You can't dispute that.

I live in Etobicoke near the terminus of the Crosstown LRT West extension. Extending the Bloor Danforth subway to my area would be a huge waste of money because it's mainly single family homes, semis, town-homes and low-rise community housing too. There are few condo buildings, but they are spaced out. Outside of plazas or schools, I can walk in my neighborhood and not come across a single person almost any time of the day. There are even many kids in my area. My area would need to be totally re-zoned for high density to make an underground subway extension remotely viable.

I defended Frank because you said that he wants to replace existing subways with LRTs, which is plainly false. I also criticized the current streetcar system and the upcoming Crosstown and gave a few examples. Perhaps you think those examples are not accurate? I agree with your general distaste of the TTC streetcars, but I can at least Iist some of the problems and potential fixes instead of the "streetcar bad" shtick. I also criticized the common argument that Transit City would have been done by now if it wasn't cancelled.. That's a hypothetical argument and there's no way to tell if it would have been completed by now or not. That's the same as claiming the Crosstown is going to be useless after the condos are done or that Transit City would have been a disaster. We have no way of knowing if things would be better if we made a different choice.

I already agreed with you that signals freezing on the GO train does causes delays for people. I say again that there are still no calls to bury the GO trains to prevent that problem. The size of the freezing problem is small compared to the total cost to mitigate that risk by burying the whole GO network. Here's another way to look at it. Would it make financial sense to harden the rail system from earthquakes, hurricanes, tornaoes, etc in the very remote chance they are going to happen? Those events have definitely happened in Toronto, but also extremely rare.

In your rush to parrot Rob Ford and defend his legacy you have chosen not to look at these issues from both sides. That's called calm and rationale debate, which is all I am trying to do.

 

[Skoob]

I live in Etobicoke near the terminus of the Crosstown LRT West extension. Extending the Bloor Danforth subway to my area would be a huge waste of money because it's mainly single family homes, semis, town-homes and low-rise community housing too. There are few condo buildings, but they are spaced out. Outside of plazas or schools, I can walk in my neighborhood and not come across a single person almost any time of the day. There are even many kids in my area. My area would need to be totally re-zoned for high density to make an underground subway extension remotely viable.

I defended Frank because you said that he wants to replace existing subways with LRTs, which is plainly false. I also criticized the current streetcar system and the upcoming Crosstown and gave a few examples. Perhaps you think those examples are not accurate? I agree with your general distaste of the TTC streetcars, but I can at least Iist some of the problems and potential fixes instead of the "streetcar bad" shtick. I also criticized the common argument that Transit City would have been done by now if it wasn't cancelled.. That's a hypothetical argument and there's no way to tell if it would have been completed by now or not. That's the same as claiming the Crosstown is going to be useless after the condos are done or that Transit City would have been a disaster. We have no way of knowing if things would be better if we made a different choice.

I already agreed with you that signals freezing on the GO train does causes delays for people. I say again that there are still no calls to bury the GO trains to prevent that problem. The size of the freezing problem is small compared to the total cost to mitigate that risk by burying the whole GO network. Here's another way to look at it. Would it make financial sense to harden the rail system from earthquakes, hurricanes, tornaoes, etc in the very remote chance they are going to happen? Those events have definitely happened in Toronto, but also extremely rare.

In your rush to parrot Rob Ford and defend his legacy you have chosen not to look at these issues from both sides. That's called calm and rationale debate, which is all I am trying to do.

I never said he wanted to replace subways. I said, if they were to replace subways with LRTs downtowners like him would freak out.

I also never said to bury the existing GO lines. You did.

Why are you putting words in my mouth?

Walking around your neighourhood is not the barometer...rush hours when people are commuting is the barometer. Cars clogging the streets. Why is that?

Could it be because there are not enough subways that reach enough places making subways a viable option for people to not drive their cars?

The truth is staring at you in the face and you keep fighting the fact that subways are way more effective at moving people around. Toronto is decades behind many other cities that have robust subway systems as the core of their transit system.

 

[explorerzip]

I never said he wanted to replace subways. I said, if they were to replace subways with LRTs downtowners like him would freak out.

We're not replacing the existing subways with LRTs anyway so your point about people freaking out is meaningless. Let's deal in reality not "what if" scenarios that don't make any sense.

I also never said to bury the existing GO lines. You did.

Why are you putting words in my mouth?

I'm putting words in your mouth because you've been complaining very loudly that the switches on the GO system freeze up a lot. I used your own words to show how ridiculous it would be to bury the GO system to address that issue. Surely, you can see that now?

Walking around your neighourhood is not the barometer...rush hours when people are commuting is the barometer. Cars clogging the streets. Why is that?

Feel free to take a drive to Renforth Drive near Centennial Park and see for yourself. Cars are not clogging the area in either the morning or afternoon rush. Buses only travel along Renforth for the 3 schools on it. People generally avoid that street because it's a long and straight 40 zone and perfect to pick off speeders. It's also more convenient to get to the 427, 401, Gardiner / QEW from Burnhamthorpe Road. A subway extension to my area will likely never make financial sense with the low density.

Could it be because there are not enough subways that reach enough places making subways a viable option for people to not drive their cars?

The Sheppard Subway is about 20 years old and its highest ridership was about 50,000 people in 2012. Almost all of the people on Sheppard travel from Don Mills to Sheppard-Yonge. The rest of the stations are very lightly used (~3000 on average a day) despite many current and upcoming condos. Clearly, building a subway does not necessarily make people abandon their cars. Build it and they will come doesn't work outside of the movies.

The truth is staring at you in the face and you keep fighting the fact that subways are way more effective at moving people around. Toronto is decades behind many other cities that have robust subway systems as the core of their transit system.

In a vacuum, subways do move more people around. Yet cities don't exist in vaccums like in video games and multiple modes of transit have to and are used around the world. We already have a reasonably robust subway system at the core of our transit system in Toronto. In 2022, it moved over 200 million people, across 70 KM of track through 70 stations. I haven't been suggesting that it's a perfect system or that we should never build subways again. It's not so much if we need subways, but where do we need to build them to maximize ridership.

Anyway, there's no sense debating this anymore and we've gone off topic long enough.

 

[Not getting younger]

Basic factual civic history:

She picked Mr. Collaborative's pockets to the tune $8billion while tossing the Gardiner and the DVP onto his ample thighs in addition to setting the city on the course of a more sustainable fiscal and financial footing, all in just 6 months, that right-wing, center-right mayors and council majorities not only failed to, but actually were the direct cause of driving Toronto to the precipice of the fiscal, budgetary financial cliff through their 12 plus years of reign of ruin.

Basic personal history:

She lived in a market priced unit.

Basic political history:

A much more competent and results-oriented mayor, unlike the 2 incompetents that preceded her.


The ethos of divisiveness, ineptitude and downright factual misrepresentation that you display is the hallmark of a Canadian MAGA extremist.

Alternatively. We could look at it realistically and factually. Factually, John Tory, othwise known as red Tory, is/was not right wing. If you knew how to read budgets you’d know that…

Realistically.
Whether Left wing or Right wing. What ALL politicians care most about is being in power. Nothing else matters.


Therefore in the end, it doesn’t “really” matter which figure head has plunged Toronto into the toilet. Because in the end, it’s the voters fault. They need votes, hence they do what they “need” to….in this case, kiss your ass and keep you happy. It’s not called vote buying without reason.

Hence why a “Red” conservative named Tory spent and spend and spent…Hence why Ford too, has spent and spent and spent. And hasn’t done anything, that might annoy people in the GTA…..Hence why McGuinty and Wynne spent and spent and spent. Hence why Trudeau has spent and spent and spent and spent and spent. Without the GTAs votes, they don’t win..and when it comes to the electorate. The GTA is “liberal”..
Dont let actual facts and history get in the way of it.

On planet earth, if you care to come back it. Whether the 416/905, the province and now country being in debt over its head….Can you connect 3 simple dots?

And if you understood politics even a wee bit, you might understand why Ford has agreed to it. Shame, everyone else in the province ( country) has to subsidize you and your self centred wants. Everyone else in the province/country don’t call the GTA the centre of the universe without reason..

People, tax payers I might add you have constantly thrown under bus, then ignored, sticking your head in the sand, being blind…..and who…..don’t have it, anywhere near as good as you. Certainly not economically in terms of jobs/incomes/wealth… and .Certainly not in terms of infrastructure, services and amenities….

And this despite you being Liberals, self professed and so called champions of the less fortunate, and socioeconomics……..when what you really are is self centered, greedy and proof trickle down is a sham…...and let’s not forget, you whine very loudly about all the consequences…

Don’t you?