Saddam captured
- Thread starter Cosine
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Dan****an said:
Actually, the vast majority of people I know who are anti-American would be considered anything but left-wing liberal crusaders. Maybe you wish that wasn't the case, but it's true. Maybe it makes you feel better to think it's only extremists who can't stand the stench of George Bush, but I think you should take another look...
Actually seven, you totally missed my point. You can never KNOW what someone is going to do, you can only suspect. Somehow I don't think the Americans sold the weapons with a disclaimer that "Now Saddam, these weapons are going to be used to kill your own people, right? Cuz we KNOW you're going to and you'd better prove us right..." Did the Americans suspect Saddam would use the weapons on his own people? Maybe. But more likely they suspected he was going to use CWs to deter further aggression by Iran - the real source of American fear.
As for what the American administration knew about Saddam's intentions. You seem to be big on quotes so I'd like you to send me a link to where you got that info from? Or maybe that's just your perception? That's what I thought.
Actually, you're the one who can't have it both ways. Certainly there were "some" in the administration who knew what Saddam was up to. But "some" does not mean "all," yet you blame the entire administration for what "some" knew.
Torture in Guantanamo Bay. Maybe. Maybe not. Proof please. That's right, I believe in EVIDENCE before I make accusations. And you're right, if torture is going on then I feel it is the lesser of two evils. You're still living in your utopian wonderland where the USA must be morally "pure" to be able to take action. If the USA is immoral for its actions in Iraq, I'd like you to tell me which country in this world is not immoral. Canada? Switzerland? Russia? Who?
Absolute morality is a concept - not a reality. And in the reality that we live in, the USA is pursuing what's best for themselves and for the world (as they see it). I may not be a big fan of the USA, but at least they're doing something. That's a lot more than can be said for most of the world. There's a saying that the greatest evil is to do nothing at all. Think about that.
As for what the American administration knew about Saddam's intentions. You seem to be big on quotes so I'd like you to send me a link to where you got that info from? Or maybe that's just your perception? That's what I thought.
Actually, you're the one who can't have it both ways. Certainly there were "some" in the administration who knew what Saddam was up to. But "some" does not mean "all," yet you blame the entire administration for what "some" knew.
Torture in Guantanamo Bay. Maybe. Maybe not. Proof please. That's right, I believe in EVIDENCE before I make accusations. And you're right, if torture is going on then I feel it is the lesser of two evils. You're still living in your utopian wonderland where the USA must be morally "pure" to be able to take action. If the USA is immoral for its actions in Iraq, I'd like you to tell me which country in this world is not immoral. Canada? Switzerland? Russia? Who?
Absolute morality is a concept - not a reality. And in the reality that we live in, the USA is pursuing what's best for themselves and for the world (as they see it). I may not be a big fan of the USA, but at least they're doing something. That's a lot more than can be said for most of the world. There's a saying that the greatest evil is to do nothing at all. Think about that.
It is interesting how a thread about the capture of Saddam has managed to devolve into Bush bashing, Clinton bashing (both Bill and Hillary), American and Canadian bashing... let's see, have I missed anybody? Oh, how could I forget? The "towelhead" comment.
So I will continue it... I am not a Bush fan and do not believe he is the publicly elected POTUS. He holds the position on technicality only. Moreover, I think he is a dolt. I am personally embarrassed by him and my country's diminished international stature due to him. On the other hand, I did vote for Clinton twice, and although I wouldn't want him to date my sister, I thought he was an intelligent, humane, thoughtful, president. In business, it is typical to blame the previous regime for current misfortunes, and of course the seeds of today were planted during his administration, but I don't see the logic in the statement that his philandering and subsequent impeachment has anything to do with the situation in the Middle East. As far as I am concerned, all that was as well as the Whitewater crap was a bunch of trumped up sour grapes from Republicans who were pissed Clinton beat the pants off of their boys in two straight presidential elections.
As far as 2004 goes, all I know is I had a net worth in 2000 which was 2.5 times what it is today, my Federal Government's budget surplus is all gone, and I am not sure how openly I want it to be known that I am an American when I travel overseas anymore.
So I will continue it... I am not a Bush fan and do not believe he is the publicly elected POTUS. He holds the position on technicality only. Moreover, I think he is a dolt. I am personally embarrassed by him and my country's diminished international stature due to him. On the other hand, I did vote for Clinton twice, and although I wouldn't want him to date my sister, I thought he was an intelligent, humane, thoughtful, president. In business, it is typical to blame the previous regime for current misfortunes, and of course the seeds of today were planted during his administration, but I don't see the logic in the statement that his philandering and subsequent impeachment has anything to do with the situation in the Middle East. As far as I am concerned, all that was as well as the Whitewater crap was a bunch of trumped up sour grapes from Republicans who were pissed Clinton beat the pants off of their boys in two straight presidential elections.
As far as 2004 goes, all I know is I had a net worth in 2000 which was 2.5 times what it is today, my Federal Government's budget surplus is all gone, and I am not sure how openly I want it to be known that I am an American when I travel overseas anymore.
Keebler Elf said:
You know Keebler... you make a lot of sense. I think the major thing that pisses me off is I think after 9/11 the US had one good chance to clean house... and they blew it. They went after Iraq, a wounded country with a secular government that had nothing to do with 9/11. It is now an opportunity lost. I also think that what goes down at Guantanamo *is* torture, and by being cute with borders the US is simply watering down their integrity. Once it is gone... it is gone.
I am damn glad they got Saddam... and I am glad they got him alive. If he went down fighting, or became a martyr, it would have been much worse. Hopefully this will bring a quicker close to the fighting (though who really knows) and a little more safety to all...
Looks like Saddam's capture is helping the US capture key targets involved in the insurgency.
http://www.torontostar.com/NASApp/c...525&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/12/15/sprj.irq.main/index.html
Cheers,
-djk
http://www.torontostar.com/NASApp/c...525&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/12/15/sprj.irq.main/index.html
Cheers,
-djk
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Notion said:
The ends don't justify the means, but I don't think he should be let go.
The US set out on a crusade to eliminate Saddam by using the flimsy and ultimately false excuse of WMD. For this, the US deserves to be condemned. The elimination of Saddam Husein from power is however, a good thing. He is (was) by all reasonable measures a ruthless dictator who pu this own selfish interests before those of his country. He killed without mercy, many times wrongly so. His destruction of the Kuwaiti oil caps in 1991 was stupidity and common petulance beyond reason.
For these transgressions, Saddam deserves to be tried in a court of law. If the World Court in the Hague won't do, I say wait a few months for the new Iraqi constitution to be written. Then let the Iraqi justice system have its way with the former ruler.
It’s an interesting thought xarir. The world court in the Hague will not sentence any war criminal to death if found guilty.
It will be interesting to see how the liberals handle this one (his war-crimes trial). As Fang said, the world court won't sentence him to death. But an Iraqi tribunal would certainly impose the capital punishment on him.
So, the liberals don't want the West mucking about in the affairs of others. Should Hussein be tried under Muslim law? Especially if it means he'll be (probably) beheaded or something like that...?
Or should the world get involved now...
*awaits *d*'s (and others) thoughts*
So, the liberals don't want the West mucking about in the affairs of others. Should Hussein be tried under Muslim law? Especially if it means he'll be (probably) beheaded or something like that...?
Or should the world get involved now...
*awaits *d*'s (and others) thoughts*
What I find interesting is that while we all have one thing in common seeing on what board we are posting (either as users or providers), we are all over the place on the political spectrum.
I think what this means is that a lot of us have reached the point where we believe in a more "libertarian" society in terms of acts between consenting adults.
Tolkienreader
I think what this means is that a lot of us have reached the point where we believe in a more "libertarian" society in terms of acts between consenting adults.
Tolkienreader
soap box time
OK, what was the question ? My first thought is that Saddam should be tried according to the laws of his religion ( even though I may not agree with them and it contrasts somewhat with Garretts quote ). I think the outside has intervened enough and it's only right that justice be served according to Islam and the majority of the Iraqi people. Anything else would be an intrusion of their beliefs. That being the primary and most valid reason, it would also create further resentment from the middle east ...
Good point, although it wouldn't have nearly the impact it would if "they" ever killed Osama. That would most likely ensure and and fuel his "beliefs" and bitterness toward the west for generations down the road, long after "we" are gone ...
That reminds me; earlier in the thread people ( I'm hesitant to categorise ) were labelling anything that opposes their views as either anti American ( is "American" a fixed ideology ? ), liberal fodder or left wing etc. Labelling individuals is never a good thing. It comes across as casting off others opinions purely because they do not conform to their own chosen political standing. There are some people who do not subscribe to any direct line of thought and are capable of thinking for themselves ( at least within the boundaries of conditioning they are not yet aware of ) and judging situations on an individual basis. I'm not anti American. I'm anti thoughtless arrogant pricks. Nothing wrong with a thoughtful arrogant prick though ... hehe
OK, what was the question ? My first thought is that Saddam should be tried according to the laws of his religion ( even though I may not agree with them and it contrasts somewhat with Garretts quote ). I think the outside has intervened enough and it's only right that justice be served according to Islam and the majority of the Iraqi people. Anything else would be an intrusion of their beliefs. That being the primary and most valid reason, it would also create further resentment from the middle east ...
Damn.... dont tell Picky about Fox News.... he's convinced that I'm addicted to CNN just because I live in Atlanta. Another one of his flawed attempts at argument and reason. 
And as far as the ignorant redneck comment goes, it is sad that the poor guy cant think of any new insults. Especially when I'm a Yankee, born and raised in New York. He is so desperate for my attention that he's resorted to begging others to post his rebuttals. Poor poor Picky.
And as far as the ignorant redneck comment goes, it is sad that the poor guy cant think of any new insults. Especially when I'm a Yankee, born and raised in New York. He is so desperate for my attention that he's resorted to begging others to post his rebuttals. Poor poor Picky.
Ignorant Rednecks........
I'll have everyone know that I am an "Educated Redneck," and those that know me can attest to my levelheadedness, charm, wit, etc... (smiles who am I kidding?).
As far as anyone's beliefs here they are welcome to them, but I do not stoop to namecalling those who do not share mine.
Thats what makes Freedom and no level of intimidation will change mine...
I'll have everyone know that I am an "Educated Redneck," and those that know me can attest to my levelheadedness, charm, wit, etc... (smiles who am I kidding?).
As far as anyone's beliefs here they are welcome to them, but I do not stoop to namecalling those who do not share mine.
Thats what makes Freedom and no level of intimidation will change mine...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Great news, but....
Not questioning, just curious.
Do you have a link to these statistics?harleycharley said:
Not questioning, just curious.
