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Remembering 9/11

huckfinn

My book has been banned from schools.
Aug 16, 2011
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On the Credit River with Jim
But I understand, NIST says there were no explosions so everyone who recorded/reported they heard/felt/experienced explosions are automatically lying.
You are assuming these people have heard explosions first hand, and can discount the numerous other things it could be. Vibrations they felt were from the impact.

It didn't mean they were lying, they didn't know what they really heard, and assumed it was explosions.

The other problem here, is you are assuming the explosions were from explosives. What if they were from the elevator and mechanical rooms as I mentioned earlier, where panels would have blown off in the lower sections of the shaft?
 

eznutz

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Jul 17, 2007
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If you are talking about the loud bang at the 12 second mark, listen carefully because you can hear the jet engines at the 10 second mark.

The bang you heard was the jet hitting the building, and in other claims you mention explosives went off before the plane hit.
First boom is at 12 secs, plane impact is at 20 secs.
 

eznutz

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You are assuming these people have heard explosions first hand, and can discount the numerous other things it could be. Vibrations they felt were from the impact.

It didn't mean they were lying, they didn't know what they really heard, and assumed it was explosions.

The other problem here, is you are assuming the explosions were from explosives. What if they were from the elevator and mechanical rooms as I mentioned earlier, where panels would have blown off in the lower sections of the shaft?
Here is just one more guy who heard, felt, experienced explosions below his feet while in the WTC basement levels (before the 1st impact)
 

Promo

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Jan 10, 2009
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You and promo don't even understand basic physics.
A falling mass under gravity cannot pulverize the structure below without transferring energy to structure below, which means the top should have been losing energy all the way down. You guys seem to think Newton's 3rd law didn't apply that day.

The only way your theory works is if the solid mass lost zero energy and accumulated additional mass/energy on it's way down. Reality doesn't work that way.
Seems like you and promo should stop talking about stuff you clearly don't understand.
This is your post that makes me laugh the most.

You seem to not realize that the WTC's load bearing structure was in it's outside walls and in it's core. Each floor was pinned to the load-bearing structure and these pins were its achilles heel. There were no load-bearing columns in the office space.

I think it was Basketcase that first correctly mentioned the stored gravitational energy in the building. "Gravitational energy is the potential energy held by an object because of its high position compared to a lower position" (wiki).

1) The fire heated the steel floor structure to the point it started to sag. As it sagged it placed more stress on the pins. The pins themselves were weakened due to the heat of the fire.

2) Normally the outside load bearing structure is carrying the load straight down to the ground. As the floors sagged they pulled the outside load bearing structure (perimeter walls) towards the core a tiny amount. Initially the forces involved would have been to the equivalent of just the weight of the floor, but as the outside structure bowed-in, even a millimeter, the force vector would have changed towards the core in proportion to all the weight of all floors above it. The more it bowed, the more the force would have shifted from 100 perfect vertical to horizontal, which those columns were not meant to carry. It doesn't take much bowing to have a dramatic impact, we're talking the mass of 15+ stories bearing down on the columns. This is basic vector math and physics.

3) Eventually the sag, heat and weight caused the floor pins to shear and the floor collapsed. The combination of the damage to the structure, heat and inward load on the outside support columns resulted in the perimeter structure failing and upper floors collapsed with the first floor.

If you look at the collapse video, this is exactly how it looked. You see the 1st floor collapse, the outside walls immediate above the floor disintegrate and then the structure above it almost instantaneously (but not instantaneously, which is exactly what you would expect.) Observed = science.

Now, to your point:

4) Gravitational energy instantaneously changed to kinetic energy except the mass has now increased from 1 floor to many floors. The floors all started to accelerate at 9.8m/s2 and pancaked into the next lower floor.

5) We now have 100,000++ of joules of kinetic energy acting not directly on the inside or outside structure of the tower, but on the pins that hold the floor to the structure.

This is a key point, the very construction of the building encourage a pancake collapse in this scenario. From the physical evidence, it's proved that the planes themselves didn't collapse the tower (side note, if they had, the towers would have collapsed sideways on the side with the most damage). It was the resultant fires that weakened the floor joints/pins that caused the collapse. Further the super strong central core would guide the collapse straight down, just before the core itself fails.

You are correct, at the exact instant of the 1st floor colliding with the next lower floor, the lower floor will provide an equal and opposite force. In essence the moving floor slightly slows (doesn't stop) for an microsecond in time. But you are wrong when you say the collapsing floors lose energy all the way down. You incorrectly assume that there is an energy transfer. The exact instant of the collision, all that kinetic energy partially converts to gravitational energy and still has kinetic energy. Due to the way the WTC was build, all that force is focused on the floor pins.

6) All that energy and mass is WAY beyond the strength of the pins and they fail. The floor collapses. The outside walls are pulled in and the strong core encourages a straight down motion. Yes, velocity has decreased a tiny fraction of a percent.

7) Total mass increases even more, the floor already has velocity and the floor accelerates at 9.8m/s2 and the process continues all the way to the ground.

Again, this is supported by the collapse video evidence. You can clearly see the progression of the collapse at each floor. The WTC does not independently below the actively collapsing floor. Most materials are kept within the footprint.

Your argument only seems to be focused on the difference between free-fall time and actual fall time and you argue the 3rd law physics says that there was ~90 discrete stoppages in the collapse and that should take a long time. Eznutz - how long should it take? Please show me the math. Fortunately several of your fellow conspirators (including yourself) provided links to experts who already did the math. The towers fell almost exactly within the time calculated/predicted.

Originally you conspirators argued that the building fell at freefall rate and that was proof that every floor was either weakened and/or support columns destroyed. However multiple independent sources of video showed it took longer than free-fall and you yahoos went on to the next theory.
 

huckfinn

My book has been banned from schools.
Aug 16, 2011
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On the Credit River with Jim
Here is just one more guy who heard, felt, experienced explosions below his feet while in the WTC basement levels (before the 1st impact)
Once again;

1) read the earlier comments that the building couldn't be taken down that way because someone already tried. It also goes against the fact the building came down from the top. What is the point of setting off something in the basement? There would be so much concrete and steel in the sub-structure that the guy in the video would not have survived a blast big enough to do any significant damage to the sub-structure. In the least, he would be deafened and not able to hear the plane hit.

2) my earlier comments about admissions the sounds came from the freight elevator, and the mechanical room, indicating there must have been a rush of air or even jet fuel that went down the shafts and burned, causing noise in the freight elevator and blow out access panels on the mechanical shafts. If they heard anything, that was it....and, it would have been strong enough to make them feel like they jumped off the floor.

3) most people don't know what a real 'explosion' sounds like.

There are all kinds of reasons why its hard to believe this testimonial.
 

Promo

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Jan 10, 2009
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LMAO, you're only making a fool of yourself.

The office recording is next door, that's why there are about 9 secs between the underground explosion and the plane impact.
The video taken miles away, the 1st boom had to travel through the ground and shake the camera, that's why there is only 2 secs between.
But I understand, NIST says there were no explosions so everyone who recorded/reported they heard/felt/experienced explosions are automatically lying.
Ad hominem - if you can't attack my logic, you attack me.

I think huckfinn has it right, you first hear the jet engines at ~10s, the collision at ~12 seconds ("what was that") and the later sounds are debris falling ("sounds like something crashed").

But let's assume Huck is wrong:
- You claim building across the street records a noise at T=-9 (i.e. before the plane hit), Plane strikes at T=0.
- The massive flaw in your logic, the camera should have also recorded the alleged explosion and crash 9 seconds apart regardless of distance, since the camera distance never changed relative to WTC and relative to the 2nd building during the duration of the recording .

But Huck isn't wrong:
The camera video records the jet sound and vibration at 21 sec and the explosion at 23 seconds.
Your video shows the jet sound at 10 seconds and the first big bang at 12 seconds.
Everything is 2 seconds apart which makes sense. It may have physically occurred 1-2 seconds earlier, but the sounds all arrived locked in time relative to each other.

Are you now going to apologize, because you REALLY blew that one.
 

Promo

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Jan 10, 2009
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LMAO, you're only making a fool of yourself.

The office recording is next door, that's why there are about 9 secs between the underground explosion and the plane impact.
The video taken miles away, the 1st boom had to travel through the ground and shake the camera, that's why there is only 2 secs between.
But I understand, NIST says there were no explosions so everyone who recorded/reported they heard/felt/experienced explosions are automatically lying.
You are just throwing sh*t on the wall, hoping something will stick. You haven't yet refuted anything anyone else has used to discredit your theories, you simply move to the next piece of sh*t on the wall.

None of you eyewitnesses have credibility. All they know is they heard a loud sound. They don't know if it's an explosion or where the explosion occurred. None saw a explosions with their eyes. Since the building took many hours to collapse, anyone who had seen an explosion had plenty of time to get away safely and bring forward their story.


Further:
1) You haven't proven it was an explosion versus a normal sound that can occur in the busiest city on the planet full of massive trucks and buildings under construction/renovation.
2) A single bad-guy explosion in the WTC basement (or anywhere else) in no way explains the collapse of the tower.
3) It's already be shown the 1993 explosion in the WTC basement did no meaningful damage to the structure
3) There were 3 towers that collapsed, why no proof of 3 explosions?
4) All yours and others conspiracy "proof" evidence points to thermite, not explosives, will you yahoos make up your minds!
5) I've already provided overwhelming evidence why explosives weren't used in the WTC collapse. Any remaining "questionable" evidence points to thermite and even that evidence is explainable.
 

eznutz

Active member
Jul 17, 2007
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This is your post that makes me laugh the most.

You seem to not realize that the WTC's load bearing structure was in it's outside walls and in it's core. Each floor was pinned to the load-bearing structure and these pins were its achilles heel. There were no load-bearing columns in the office space.

I think it was Basketcase that first correctly mentioned the stored gravitational energy in the building. "Gravitational energy is the potential energy held by an object because of its high position compared to a lower position" (wiki).

1) The fire heated the steel floor structure to the point it started to sag. As it sagged it placed more stress on the pins. The pins themselves were weakened due to the heat of the fire.

2) Normally the outside load bearing structure is carrying the load straight down to the ground. As the floors sagged they pulled the outside load bearing structure (perimeter walls) towards the core a tiny amount. Initially the forces involved would have been to the equivalent of just the weight of the floor, but as the outside structure bowed-in, even a millimeter, the force vector would have changed towards the core in proportion to all the weight of all floors above it. The more it bowed, the more the force would have shifted from 100 perfect vertical to horizontal, which those columns were not meant to carry. It doesn't take much bowing to have a dramatic impact, we're talking the mass of 15+ stories bearing down on the columns. This is basic vector math and physics.

3) Eventually the sag, heat and weight caused the floor pins to shear and the floor collapsed. The combination of the damage to the structure, heat and inward load on the outside support columns resulted in the perimeter structure failing and upper floors collapsed with the first floor.

If you look at the collapse video, this is exactly how it looked. You see the 1st floor collapse, the outside walls immediate above the floor disintegrate and then the structure above it almost instantaneously (but not instantaneously, which is exactly what you would expect.) Observed = science.

Now, to your point:

4) Gravitational energy instantaneously changed to kinetic energy except the mass has now increased from 1 floor to many floors. The floors all started to accelerate at 9.8m/s2 and pancaked into the next lower floor.

5) We now have 100,000++ of joules of kinetic energy acting not directly on the inside or outside structure of the tower, but on the pins that hold the floor to the structure.

This is a key point, the very construction of the building encourage a pancake collapse in this scenario. From the physical evidence, it's proved that the planes themselves didn't collapse the tower (side note, if they had, the towers would have collapsed sideways on the side with the most damage). It was the resultant fires that weakened the floor joints/pins that caused the collapse. Further the super strong central core would guide the collapse straight down, just before the core itself fails.

You are correct, at the exact instant of the 1st floor colliding with the next lower floor, the lower floor will provide an equal and opposite force. In essence the moving floor slightly slows (doesn't stop) for an microsecond in time. But you are wrong when you say the collapsing floors lose energy all the way down. You incorrectly assume that there is an energy transfer. The exact instant of the collision, all that kinetic energy partially converts to gravitational energy and still has kinetic energy. Due to the way the WTC was build, all that force is focused on the floor pins.

6) All that energy and mass is WAY beyond the strength of the pins and they fail. The floor collapses. The outside walls are pulled in and the strong core encourages a straight down motion. Yes, velocity has decreased a tiny fraction of a percent.

7) Total mass increases even more, the floor already has velocity and the floor accelerates at 9.8m/s2 and the process continues all the way to the ground.

Again, this is supported by the collapse video evidence. You can clearly see the progression of the collapse at each floor. The WTC does not independently below the actively collapsing floor. Most materials are kept within the footprint.

Your argument only seems to be focused on the difference between free-fall time and actual fall time and you argue the 3rd law physics says that there was ~90 discrete stoppages in the collapse and that should take a long time. Eznutz - how long should it take? Please show me the math. Fortunately several of your fellow conspirators (including yourself) provided links to experts who already did the math. The towers fell almost exactly within the time calculated/predicted.

Originally you conspirators argued that the building fell at freefall rate and that was proof that every floor was either weakened and/or support columns destroyed. However multiple independent sources of video showed it took longer than free-fall and you yahoos went on to the next theory.
There is no such thing as gravitational energy, gravity is a force that changes potential energy to kinetic energy.
The Kinetic energy being dropped on the structure below was less than the force resisting (gravity works both ways)
When the top block comes into contact with the bottom block, energy is transferred (deformation in the bottom structure, pulverizing concrete)

Here's the math, but I don't expect you to comprehend what you read.
Estimates for time to collapse of WTC1
Kenneth L. Kuttler, PhD – Professor of Mathematics, Brigham Young University.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/letters/ProfKuttlerWTC1CollapseTimeCalculations.pdf

Here is his summary...
There are two observations about the collapse of WTC1 which are difficult to harmonize in the context of
the official explanation. One is the time with which the collapse took place and the other is the production
of large clouds of dust which are seen forming during the entire collapse in the videos of the falling building.
The majority of the paper has explored this difficulty by totally ignoring the columns and any resistance
they produced. The considerations were based on the need for energy to crush the concrete and momentum
conservation. However, if one ignores energy needed to crush the concrete, a reasonable estimate using
resistance of the columns also produces surprisingly long times to collapse.
But you seem to think a smaller object falling on a larger object with defined energy can conserve most of it's energy while pulverizing 90 floors.
If would of taken about 9 secs if the bottom structure wasn't there, using 100% of it's Kinetic energy. The buildings fell in 10-12 secs (9/11 commision/NIST).

Where did the extra energy come from to pulverize everything in it's path to dust and still fall at 'close to" the same rate it would have taken if nothing was there.
 

huckfinn

My book has been banned from schools.
Aug 16, 2011
2,529
133
63
On the Credit River with Jim
But you seem to think a smaller object falling on a larger object with defined energy can conserve most of it's energy while pulverizing 90 floors.
If would of taken about 9 secs if the bottom structure wasn't there, using 100% of it's Kinetic energy. The buildings fell in 10-12 secs (9/11 commision/NIST).

Where did the extra energy come from to pulverize everything in it's path to dust and still fall at 'close to" the same rate it would have taken if nothing was there.
Once again, that theory applies if the block was pulverizing the entire building below simultaneously......recall my earlier post? Think of the amount of weight accumulating as the floors pancaked. You are also assuming that the whole floor had to be knocked out. It didn't. All that was needed was the force to break the bolts and pins holding the beams that support the floors - as Promo pointed out earlier. If you understand shear, like cutting a bolt, each floor was designed to carry itself, not the floor or floors above it, so those bolts would fail.

That is true.....and the initial failure was +/- 19 floors falling on one floor, which would not have destroyed the original +/- 19 floors, but a large portion of them would keep falling intact to continue knocking out the other floors.


This is where Newton's theory doesn't apply. 19 floors are forcing the collapse of one, then the next floor actually has 20 floors on it, then 21 etc.

When one body exerts a force on a second body, the second body simultaneously exerts a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the first body.

This is assuming the (weight) mass of each body is equal. If you look at the cars in the video posted, the smaller (lighter) car is pushed back. It's like Fuji posting about dropping a bowling ball, it is heavier than the cards so the cards will fail.

In this case, 19 floors is heavier than one.......and the weight was accumulating as it was falling.
 

fuji

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You and promo don't even understand basic physics.
A falling mass under gravity cannot pulverize the structure below without transferring energy to structure below, which means the top should have been losing energy all the way down. You guys seem to think Newton's 3rd law didn't apply that day.

The only way your theory works is if the solid mass lost zero energy and accumulated additional mass/energy on it's way down. Reality doesn't work that way.
Seems like you and promo should stop talking about stuff you clearly don't understand.

You are just ludicrously wrong. Go back to grade five.

Or better yet try this experiment that will prove to you that the AMOUNT of resistance matters:

First drop a bowling ball on a house of cards and observe that although clearly energy is transferred to the cards, they have so little resistance that it effectively doesn't matter.

Then drop the bowling ball on your foot. Note that the ball didn't have enough force to make it through your foot, your foot significantly slowed the ball.

Now fire a shotgun loaded with a slug at your other foot. Note that the slug had so much inertia that it was only slightly slowed down by your foot.

This proves that the RATIO of the inertia of the impacting mass to the amount of resistance offered by the impacted object matters quite a lot.

The slug, with tremendous inertia, was not slowed much at all by your foot, even though your foot was able to stop the slower moving bowling ball, while the bowling ball easily crushed through the house of cards.

You can try this yourself at home!

And then learn: the inertia of 20 floors of falling WTC is astronomically larger than the resistance offered by the building structure, so it's more like the slug ripping through your foot, or the bowling ball falling on the card house, and not like the bowling ball falling on your foot.

You can really go try this. Make physics real!
 

fuji

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LMAO, you're only making a fool of yourself.

The office recording is next door, that's why there are about 9 secs between the underground explosion and the plane impact.
The video taken miles away, the 1st boom had to travel through the ground and shake the camera, that's why there is only 2 secs between.
But I understand, NIST says there were no explosions so everyone who recorded/reported they heard/felt/experienced explosions are automatically lying.
No there was nine seconds between the plane impact and when they SAID it was a plane impact.
 

fuji

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The Kinetic energy being dropped on the structure below was less than the force resisting (gravity works both ways)
Wrong. With simple physics you can calculate that the force of the building dropping was ASTRONOMICALLY greater than the stress the building was designed to withstand. Many thousands of times more, and exponentially increasing with every meter of fall.
 

Promo

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Jan 10, 2009
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There is no such thing as gravitational energy, gravity is a force that changes potential energy to kinetic energy.
You are wrong, again:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_energy - "Gravitational energy is potential energy associated with the gravitational field."
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_energy - "is the potential energy held by an object because of its high position compared to a lower position. In other words, it is energy associated with gravity or gravitational force. For example, a pen being held above a table has a higher gravitational potential than a pen sitting on the table. Gravitational potential energy is mechanical energy minus kinetic energy. It has a scalar quantity measured in Joules (J)."

If you don't like wiki:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/gpot.html
https://www.reference.com/science/gravitational-energy-400f974ec4a2f1e


The Kinetic energy being dropped on the structure below was less than the force resisting (gravity works both ways)
When the top block comes into contact with the bottom block, energy is transferred (deformation in the bottom structure, pulverizing concrete)

blah ..... blah ...... blah

Where did the extra energy come from to pulverize everything in it's path to dust and still fall at 'close to" the same rate it would have taken if nothing was there.
Because the model you are using is wrong as we've explain to you several times. The perimeter and core load bearing structures were not the the structures resisting the floor collapse. The pins between the floors and the load-bearing walls were the only thing resisting the floor collapse.

As I have already said, it was the unique design of the WTC that provided its achilles heel once the collapse started. The WTC buildings didn't have conventional columns through-out the office space, the floors were hung-off the perimeter and core structure. The perimeter structure and core structures was designed to bear the tremendous weight of the building and to resist failure due to winds, etc. What wasn't considered was the failure of the pins and simultaneous inward-deformation of the outside perimeter due to the load caused by the sagging floors due to the fire and damaged insulation. Once the kinetic energy of the actual collapse started it was game over.

Tthe actual rate of collapse matches the mathematical predictions and computer models precisely.
 

Promo

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Jan 10, 2009
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The Kinetic energy being dropped on the structure below was less than the force resisting (gravity works both ways)
Gravity works both ways?? Really? So gravity pushes up as well as pulls down? I'll think I'll calls this "eznutz first law of gravity".

Any explanation yet why one sound traveled 3.5X faster over a few thousand feet?
 

SuperCharge

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Jun 11, 2011
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Gravity works both ways?? Really? So gravity pushes up as well as pulls down? I'll think I'll calls this "eznutz first law of gravity".
It's called Newtons 3rd law of motion - A force is a push or a pull that acts upon an object as a results of its interaction with another object. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Forces come in pairs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_laws_of_motion
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
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So you truly believe that an office fire has the potential to heat up to temps of 2,500+ which is required to compromise steel? ...
Once again you show you have no interest in reality or science.

Studies that show quite clearly that even at a typical fire temperature of 600C that structural steel has lost 75% of it's strength.
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.560.3179&rep=rep1&type=pdf

Give it up. Have faith in conspiracies if you want but stop trying to claim science backs you up.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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...

Now having lost the debate you want to spam us with how many more stupid conspiracy theories? Is your goal to tire us all out with never-ending bullshit?

....
That is the standard operating procedure for conspiracy theorists.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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So, you think 100+ witnesses to explosions going off before the plane impacted made it all up as well.
There is a reason why witnesses are the least valued form of evidence. There have been dozens upon dozens of studies showing how easily witnesses unintentionally create false memories based on outside influences.
 
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