Remembering 9/11
- Thread starter Insidious Von
- Start date
In the video, one person mentioned the explosion coming from the freight elevator, the other said it came from a mechanical room.
Makes sense. The elevator shaft and many ventilation shafts run from the basement levels to the top floor and roof. I suspect the plane hit, and forced a lot of hot air from the fires down the shafts within a fraction of a second, and it blew out access doors and things on the shafts in the lower levels. And, they heard that before they heard the plane hit because of the time it takes for the sound to travel.
And, if they heard this explosion and the ensuing noise, how could they possibly know the exact second when the plane hit. They would have been a little distracted with all the screaming people and the glass smashing out.
That is a painfully small representation of the many thousands downtown that witnessed the incident. With your 100+ witnesses, I suggest of those who simply rewrote a vague memory, many were not actually witnesses, others heard the explosion and just looked u,p while many more heard the echos of the sound reverberating among the high downtown structures.
You are sooooo focused on the firefighters and the explosions they apparently heard as proof of your theories, so let's have a look ...
Conspiracy Theorists (CT) seem to have two theories: 1) explosives or 2) thermite was used to weaken the structure and ultimately cause the collapse. Jubee, in this thread you've swung between both, so let's examine both:
Thermite / Thermate:
Thermite typically requires a temperature over 3000F to ignite. Thermite is ignited using Magnesium Ribbon. The point: you don't use "explosives" to ignite thermite. If indeed thermite was used, there would have been NO EXPLOSIONS.
The reason thermite is favoured by the conspiracy types is that:
0) Thermite is NOT explosive (explosions would have provided physical evidence and the bad guys did not want evidence). Once ignited Thermite burns with great intensity and heat and no explosion ----- your own video confirms this
1) The collision and fire would not have caused the thermite to start acting early -------- However the CT fools forget the magnesium ribbon or any other activator would have ignited at below 1000F and the control wires could have been destroyed
2) The CTs point to the clean 45 degree cuts on the structure steel as evidence ------ However the CT fools don't understand that the thermite would have been placed on the pins that join the horizontal floors to the vertical support structure and NOT NOT NOT EVER the outside structural steel. Otherwise the building would not have pancaked straight down as it did, but would have fallen to one side if they even mistimed their 1000s of denotations by a fraction of a millisecond. Remember they would not have know EXACTLY where the plane was going to hit ahead of time, they therefore could not use static timing. Also even 10-20 broken control wires would have disrupted the controlled demolition and potentially caused the building to topple sideways.
3) The CTs point to the molten metal flowing out a window --- However the fools fail to realize that the thermite would have to be placed at EVERY pin around the perimeter of the structure (by the elevators AND the outside girders). Therefore we should have seen the molten flows from many locations as thermite would have burned through everything.
4) Evidence of thermite residue at the site ---- This one is the most laughable. All the chemicals and compounds that go into the creation of thermite would have been common within the building (iron oxide, aluminum oxide, aluminum, copper, etc)
Explosives:
The reason explosives is favoured by the conspiracy types is that ..... actually it's not favoured at all, for obvious reasons:
0, 1, 2, 3, 4) Explosives would have left waaaaay too much physical evidence. There is a whole expert industry (NTSB) that knows how to look for explosive evidence amongst the fire and impact destroyed rubble. Even many police are trained to look for explosive evidence.
5) Although there are directional explosives, the bad guys needed precision to assure the building would fall straight down and not over. Explosives simply aren't precise enough when they didn't know EXACTLY where the plane was going to hit and which explosives might have been disabled by broken control wires.
6) Explosives would have been donated by the collision and multi-hour fire.
7) the quantity of explosives required would have been in the 100s of toms.
8) Explosives need to be drilled into concrete columns. That takes big tools, time and leaves lots of evidence before the event.
So what did the firefighters hear? All the following are reasonable and logical possibilities (and we've already eliminated explosives and thermite doesn't explode):
1) The sound of the floor pins shearing.
2) The sound of a floor falling onto the floor below it
3) The wave energy of the collapse occurring on upper floors (traveling through the building structure more rapidly than through air) into the lobby and becoming sound energy
4) The sound of aerosol cans (paint, hairspray, keyboard cleaner, CO2 containers for fire suppression) exploding (ever throw one in a fire?)
5) The sound of UPS batteries exploding. I'll bet there were 1000s of big batteries throughout the buildings
6) The sound of structural falling or releasing tension energy. Not talking building structure, could be a office staircase falling once it's supports burned through.
Have you ever been to a building fire? The noise is immense and you can hear constant loud bangs going on. Those firefighters were under allot of stress and must have been scared as hell, do they really know what they heard?
These 100+ were inside the buildings (survivors, fire, police) not people on the street.
I guess these guys who were pulled out of the rubble imagined explosions as well.
Let's start with this: whatever they experienced, it wasn't the building being blown up.
The most likely answer is the impact of the plane forced air through the ventilation system and the elevators which would have been explosive.
But clearly these were not demolition charges otherwise the building would have collapsed, which it didn't do until the collapse at the 77th floor an hour later.
NO! DO YOU NOT EVEN UNDERSTAND YOUR OWN CONSPIRACY THEORIES !!?? Why would the bad guys detonate explosives BEFORE the plane crashed? If they did, EVERYTHING could have gone terribly wrong, the WTC could have, and probably would have toppled over sideways. The plane could have hit 3-10 stories higher or lower than expected and then overwhelming physical proof of explosives would have been left. I could give you dozens of reasons why the explosives could ONLY be set-off after the collision.
Can you provide 3 logical reasons why the explosives would have be set-off before?
- The reason the smarter conspiracy theorists push thermite (vs explosives) is for all the the reasons provide in post 445.
- Any explosives used in the WTC would have been small shape charges. They sound more like really loud hand-claps than explosions. If the fitnesses claimed they heard something like gunshots, at least it could be possible/believable.
- How do they know what direction they came fom - the frequencies in explosions and gunshots are low (<~100Hz) and therefore it's hard for a human ear to directionalize. This is why it's so hard to find a sniper as you can't really tell where the shots are coming from.
To further rebutt you:
- You haven't provided proof of "100 of witnesses".
- The witness reports conflicts with police reports and even your fireman report in terms of timing and quantity
- How many explosion sounds have they heard in their lives such that they knew this was a explosion instead of two trucks getting into a collision a block away, while a moving van drops a bunch of filing cabinets onto the street, while a guy with a sledge hammer breaks up concrete on a sidewalk, while another guy pounds a metal bar into shape.
We all know eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable.
Here is audio of an explosion 9 secs before the 1st plane impact.
It was recorded from an office building across the street from the WTC
http://911encyclopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Ginny_Carr_WTC_Audio_Recording
Pre-weakening the under infrastructure and allowing gravity to do the heavy work is how you take a building down.
As you said, the top part was like a "bowling ball being dropped on a house of cards"
How does 75+ floors of undamaged structural steel turn into a house of cards?
The audio doesn't say what you claim.
A 75+ floor structure turns into a house of cards when you drop a 20 floor structure on it.
You just don't even remotely understand physics.
Promo pointed out you have gotten the science wrong in EVERY claim you have made. Maybe you should lessen something and stop making up stuff you don't understand.
Yet, your video of the reporter shows only a 2 second difference. That video ran for 21 seconds before that and there is no explosion noise at the -9 second point. How do you explain that?
Every piece of physical evidence you've provided so far conflicts with each other.
I'm not up on all the conspiracy theories but I thought some had the passengers (particularly those whose passenger planes were replaced by missiles, military planes, UFO's) surviving in some ultra secret location (no one seen them in 15 years). I was trying to add a plausible scenario to an implausible work of fiction but I could suggest that they ended up on a remote Martian colony.
No! No! No! This was not a controlled demolition scenario. They could not have predicted ahead of time where the planes would hit and what resultant damage would be done. They could NEVER risk the building toppling sideways.
You haven't seemed to grasp a CRITICAL point yet. It wasn't the outside or the inside load bearing structure that failed. It was the pins that held each floors to the load bearing structure that failed.
Ignoring the above for a sec, lots of business people below the floor that was hit escaped the building. If indeed explosives were set-off just before the plane crash, why have none of them reported hearing the explosions AND far more damning, why have none of them reporting SEEING your explosions? An explosion strong enough to "pre-weaken" structural steel and cement would be pretty damn obvious as the WTC was designed to be open floor space.
You and promo don't even understand basic physics.
A falling mass under gravity cannot pulverize the structure below without transferring energy to structure below, which means the top should have been losing energy all the way down. You guys seem to think Newton's 3rd law didn't apply that day.
The only way your theory works is if the solid mass lost zero energy and accumulated additional mass/energy on it's way down. Reality doesn't work that way.
Seems like you and promo should stop talking about stuff you clearly don't understand.
You don't hear 2 distinct booms in the audio, it's clear to me and the people in the recording.
The 9 second video was next door to the WTC, the other video was a few miles away.
It takes time for sound waves to travel.
Or as non-experts, they didn't know what the loud sound they heard was, they just assumed it was an explosion. Perhaps it was a trunk in the loading docks in the basement slidding its 20,000 lb load 2" to the floor. Or the sound of water-hammer as a 500 ton chiller started. Even see a waste truck dump one of those 30' bins on the floor - f*ck that's LOUD!
The WTC had already survived a 1993 bomb in the sub-basement. "1,336 pounds (606 kg) urea nitrate–hydrogen gas enhanced device[1] was intended to send the North Tower (Tower 1) crashing into the South Tower (Tower 2), bringing both towers down" (wiki). The damage as a result of that explosion did not damage the load-bearing structure of the tower at all.
People 30+ stories up in the tower didn't even hear or feel the explosion. You you claim people felt and heard a MUCH smaller explosion from further away. Bullshit.
LOL. The second video "a few miles away" showed the sound takes 2 seconds. There are no other sounds on that video +/- 9+ seconds.
The sound from a video right beside the WTC should take less time, not more.
You have no understanding of what you talk about.
BTW sound travels at ~761 miles per second which equals .211 miles/sec. A standard block in Manhattan is about 264 by 900 feet . Do you want me to embarrass you further?
LMAO, you're only making a fool of yourself.
The office recording is next door, that's why there are about 9 secs between the underground explosion and the plane impact.
The video taken miles away, the 1st boom had to travel through the ground and shake the camera, that's why there is only 2 secs between.
But I understand, NIST says there were no explosions so everyone who recorded/reported they heard/felt/experienced explosions are automatically lying.
If you are talking about the loud bang at the 12 second mark, listen carefully because you can hear the jet engines at the 10 second mark.
The bang you heard was the jet hitting the building, and in other claims you mention explosives went off before the plane hit.
