purchasing handgun

[Don]

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/

What do you expect Moore to say? That he is full of crap?

So which side do you believe? I personally feel that most truths lie in the middle so I really don't fully believe either side. I have no problems saying that anti-Moore links are baised against him while pro-Moore are biased for and that neither is right.

I actually find Moore's film etertaining. His heart is in the right place and he is shrewed enough to know that the best way to get people's attention is to blow up a story (or fact). My problem is for people who actually believe that everything Moore says is true and like to quote facts they got from him.

Lets face it, Moore is the opposite of Fox News. Fox News is has a big conservative bias and Moore has a big liberal bias. I don't believe either. Just like we groan and make fun of conservatives in the US believe what they hear from Fox News, I also groan at the morons who believe everything from Moore's movies.

Friend in the US e-mails me: "Wow it must be great to live in a city where there is no crime and everyone leaves their doors unlocked because no one would rob you!"

 

[The Shake]

Sheik/Don; I didn't say that I agreed (or disagreed) with Moore - I was simply providing some counter-balance to the other website.

 

[papasmerf]

Sheik/Don; I didn't say that I agreed (or disagreed) with Moore - I was simply providing some counter-balance to the other website.

Using moore to counterbalance anything is like smoking on the Hindenburg.

 

[seven]

I think this quote from Moore himself (referenced by Shakey's link) is very telling:


I can guarantee to you, without equivocation, that every fact in my movie is true. Three teams of fact-checkers and two groups of lawyers went through it with a fine tooth comb to make sure that every statement of fact is indeed an indisputable fact. Trust me, no film company would ever release a film like this without putting it through the most vigorous vetting process possible. The sheer power and threat of the NRA is reason enough to strike fear in any movie studio or theater chain. The NRA will go after you without mercy if they think there's half a chance of destroying you. That's why we don't have better gun laws in this country – every member of Congress is scared to death of them.


Obviously, he didn't make up any facts. Otherwise Moore and the film company would've been sued and shutdown.

 

[papasmerf]

Face it Boys and Girls

If you can get licensed and want a gun...Buy one
if you don't want to have a gun
dont buy one.

But in any event just because you don't like something THAT DOES NOT GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO IMPOSE YOUR WILL ON OTHERS.

 

[papasmerf]

Seven,

In the USA you have the right to free speech, remember that

Sure do and that right is protected by people with guns

 

[seven]

Face it Boys and Girls

If you can get licensed and want a gun...Buy one
if you don't want to have a gun
dont buy one.

But in any event just because you don't like something THAT DOES NOT GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO IMPOSE YOUR WILL ON OTHERS.

You mean like you guys do in Iraq with WMD?

 

[Don]

Sheik/Don; I didn't say that I agreed (or disagreed) with Moore - I was simply providing some counter-balance to the other website.

Shake, I think we are in agreement here. My link was to counterbalance a point (I don't really disagree with everything Moore says) and your to counterbalance mine! Now the problem with the way the world works is that you are supposed to counterbalance my last link and so forth which is why conflict would never ends. But we can end it here and say that it is pointless to continue... which if opposing sides could do more often than maybe this world wouldn't be such a bad place.

 

[papasmerf]

You mean like you guys do in Iraq with WMD?

No actually I ment you as an individual

I won't foce you to have a gun
don't force others not to........stick to the issue

 

[seven]

Seven,

In the USA you have the right to free speech, remember that

What's your point?

 

[Don]

Obviously, he didn't make up any facts. Otherwise Moore and the film company would've been sued and shutdown.

Yes he didn't make up facts. He just twists them to suit his needs. A good lawyer can make a lot of facts seem true or untrue according to his wishes.

 

[tboy]

Well, hasn't this turned into a pro-anti gun thread? All I can say to all the babble is that look at the way the anti-gun posts are written and look at most of the pro - gun, shoot him kill him blow him away, people with guns protect our right to free speech....well, its the military and the police that protect my rights to free speech, not some trigger happy idiot with a glock!

You may THINK you're defending something but you really aren't......

As for Moore: just think of what society (US and or Canadian) would be like if we DIDN'T have people showing the other side of the issue? All the americans would be walking around like that idiot in Florida (high school) when they found a unknown law that permitted one to carry a hand gun as long as it was in plain site.

I ask you all: When was the last time you went to loblaws to buy some milk and had to shoot your way out?

Gimme a break......the difference between a civilized society and the rest is our ability to C O N T R O L ourselves, being able to defend yourself is one thing, being able to defeat a small army, well, that's ludicrous....

BTW: I don't eat meat and what does that have to do with hunting?

I may not hunt any longer and see nothing wrong with it. It has many benefits to the heard etc. but what does owning an AK47 or an armalite 15 have to do with hunting or target practise?

Face it dudes, if you "need" to own an assault weapon you really should get some therapy because you are either paranoid or take those rambo movies WAY too seriously.

Like I said: It is part of our right to own weapons, all sorts, but there are many MORE reasons to NOT own one that TO own one. As I said, there are alternatives.....

 

[seven]

No actually I ment you as an individual

I won't foce you to have a gun
don't force others not to........stick to the issue

I am of the belief that certain guns should be allowed with heavy regulation. I feel that society would be better off without guns; however, you can't take away some paranoid dude's right to self-defense or some couch potato's definition of sport shooting defenseless game w/o taking away individual freedoms I suppose, so gun ownership is the lesser of two evils.

You must admit though it is kind of ironic/hypocritical that so many Americans agreed with taking away Iraq's right to armament yet fiercely protect their own rights to gun ownership. I mean gun ownership and its prevailing culture in the States is a far bigger threat to the average American than Saddam Hussein ever was. And don't kid yourself; guns cause more innocent deaths than they prevent. Your sentiment of, "But in any event just because you don't like something THAT DOES NOT GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO IMPOSE YOUR WILL ON OTHERS" is hypocritical to the extreme.

Originally posted by the Sheik

Its a point that Michael Moore uses to his utmost benefit.

Along with everybody else that is halfway intelligent. You still don't have a point.

Originally posted by Don

Yes he didn't make up facts. He just twists them to suit his needs. A good lawyer can make a lot of facts seem true or untrue according to his wishes.

Everyone uses facts to make a point. There is nothing wrong with advancing your opinion by using facts.

 

[Kev]

The biggest weapon that kills is the automobile, yet you dont see people like michael moore screaming about that do you? Why not?

They have Ralf Nader that does that Sheik. --- Kev

 

[seven]

Seven,

I'm not here to argue anything.

Facts are distorted and twisted every day, even by you.

All I'm saying is responsible gun ownership is a privledge not a right in this country. The USA has more handguns than any other country in the world, however far less people are killed in the US by guns than in many other countries. The biggest weapon that kills is the automobile, yet you dont see people like michael moore screaming about that do you? Why not? As far as I'm concerned the automobile should be outlawed because its a dangerous weapon according to the facts......

See where I'm going with this?

Are you trying to show me how facts can be twisted horribly to back a point? The thing is that not only do you need facts to make a point but you also need a little thing called logic. A car is not a weapon. A weapon is " a thing designed or used or usable for inflicting bodily harm". Cars are not used to kill. Guns are. Cars are needed by the average person in order for society to function. Guns aren't needed. Cars make society better off, guns don't.

Unfortunately out of principle, the right to gun ownership needs to be protected. The culture/mentality surrounding guns needs to be changed though, IMO, and I think Moore was bang on with his movie and the message he was trying to deliver.

 

[pool]

good post tboy

Face it dudes, if you "need" to own an assault weapon you really should get some therapy because you are either paranoid or take those rambo movies WAY too seriously.

I read this thread earlier and tried to make sense of it, but I'm still befuddled as to why some people feel the need to own a gun, while others do not. I don't lock my door and for whatever reason I don't feel the need to protect myself in-case of any home invasion. So where lies the difference ?

As for Bowling for Columbine, anyone who takes it as the whole truth is an idiot and those who think it is even meant to be are missing the point IMO. To me, it is a clever commentary on the mentality of many Americans, not just guns. Guns are only a symptom. What he did was take snippets of truth and used them to point out some dimension of the overall picture. In essence the purpose is to raise questions, not give solutions.

It's a pity, but the problem is that some of those who do not agree with his point of view will see it as "bleeding heart liberal fodder" ; a term people like to throw around to dismiss perspectives that oppose their point of view, when in essence it means nothing. But, I digress.

The majority of people who think it is their right to bear arms won't question anything. Why should they. It's their right, so it must be right, right ? Whether or not the Charlton Heston interview was emphasised with some clever editing is irrelevant. It cannot be denied that he is a redneck moron and has the thought process of a pencil eraser.

To me, as soon as the "machismo" thoughtless element enters the picture it negates from any valid arguments that are made. I feel that the need to own a gun is possibly part of a wider psychological mindset and/ or environmental conditioning, which was also one of the questions posed in Bowling For Columbine.

 

[Garrett]

Seven,

I'm not here to argue anything.

Facts are distorted and twisted every day, even by you.

All I'm saying is responsible gun ownership is a privledge not a right in this country. The USA has more handguns than any other country in the world, however far less people are killed in the US by guns than in many other countries. The biggest weapon that kills is the automobile, yet you dont see people like michael moore screaming about that do you? Why not? As far as I'm concerned the automobile should be outlawed because its a dangerous weapon according to the facts......

See where I'm going with this?

What countries are those Sheik? Iraq? I have looked at stats..all I can find is stuff like:

Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):

Homicide Suicide Unintentional

USA 4.08 (1999) 6.08 (1999) 0.42 (1999)
Canada 0.54 (1999) 2.65 (1997) 0.15 (1997)
Switzerland 0.50 (1999) 5.78 (1998) -
Scotland 0.12 (1999) 0.27 (1999) -
England/Wales 0.12 (1999/00) 0.22 (1999) 0.01 (1999)
Japan 0.04* (1998) 0.04 (1995) <0.01 (1997)


Some pretty startling numbers. As for your car argument, I have always said, if you want to kill someone, do it with a car. Your odds of doing serious time go down drastically (I have had friends killed by car drivers.... pisses me off... ).

My take on guns is some people need them... but most people do not. I believe more guns owned by homeowners are used against them than actually being used in self defense. The reality of using a gun is a lot diffferent than the fantasy.

As for me, if I have to pick between someone pointing a gun, a car, or a knife at me... I know which one I do not want. When I was a kid, worst case you would see a knife. Now, who the hell knows what someone has on them. If people want to think guns are not a presence today, and relaxed gun laws have not contributed to this, then I want some of what they have been smoking.

 

[Pete Graves]

Maybe Pool, you just piss people off with your "Holier-than-thou" attitude. My god, look at what you posted. Gun owners this. Americans that. Just because you don't see the need to own a gun you want to legislate away everyone else's right to?

For all your socialistic compassion, you don't seem very sympathetic to people that don't live in as nice a neighborhood as yours where they can't just leave their door unlocked all the time. Maybe instead of trying to psychoanalyze gun owners you should open your eyes.

 

[The Shake]

Gun owners this. Americans that.

Not one for actually reading what people post, eh?

 

[danmand]

I think it is best to leave the discussion about gun ownership to the people of the USA, where it is a value system issue.

However, there can be no doubt that we in Canada will be safer the fewer guns there are.

I also found it interesting that the US occupation forces in Iraq asked the the people of Iraq to relinguish their guns.