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Carrie Moon

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Look at it more carefully and stop making personal attacks. It's not helpful which I think was your original intention no???? This is what I mean by going off-base in the discussion.

I'm not a psychiatrist (only have my psych undergrad degree) but I have been to several with my family member. I am a physician although not medical and have been successfully taught differential diagnosis.

Don't offer alternative diagnosis without a proper history. Offering up bipolar disorder is a red herrring..

I did not make any erroneous or silly suggestions. You did.
 

squash500

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sibannac said:
I believe I said that Carrie, about a PROPER DIAGNOSIS not my reasoning. As for the rest Carrie you are a little off base here in that there are several forms of Bi-Polar, but mainly it's what they call Bi-polar 1 and Bi-polar 2. I forget which one, I think 2, is predominately depression with cycles of what they call Hypomania and most patients never reach full blown mania. Here is the page from WEBMD on bi-polar, page 2 has a description of Bipolar 2:

http://www.webmd.com/depression/guide/bipolar-disorder-manic-depression

So actually your somewhat wrong with this. Yes Bi-polar has to come with the swings between depression and hypo-mania/mania but hypomania can be as simple as a period of time with increased energy which is not as obvious as full blown mania.
Sibannac IMHO you are on the right track:) . I personally have had three different psychiatric assessments and each shrink diagnosed me with something different. What these shrinks try to do is to establish a differential diagnosis.

For example one shrink diagnosed me as having minimal brain dysfunction (in other words a learning disablity) yet at the same time he also diagnosed me as having bipolar 2 due to my impulsivity and mood swings.

The shrink recommended I take tegretol and clonazepam. I had to get off the tegretol because of the horrible side effects. Another shrink diagnosed me as having asperger syndrome and impulsivity issues.

IMHO mental health is a total inexact science with a lot of stigma around it. In Carrie's defence a lot of shrinks recommend herbal products as well. One shrink who assessed me recommended that I take melatonin as a sleep aid.

Another problem is that the waiting list for shrinks in Ontario is on average over a year and a half long. I see my family doc once a week and she has me on clonazepam and melatonin.

Personally I'm not really depressed as I have come to terms with all my deficits and I am making the best of my life.

It was my family doc who arranged for my 3 different psychiatric assessments as just to repeat it is almost impossible to get to see a shrink in toronto without going on a long waiting list!
 

Carrie Moon

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squash500 said:
Sibannac IMHO you are on the right track:) . I personally have had three different psychiatric assessments and each shrink diagnosed me with something different. What these shrinks try to do is to establish a differential diagnosis.

For example one shrink diagnosed me with as having minimal brain dysfunction (in other words a learning disablity) yet at the same time he also diagnosed me as having bipolar 2 due to my impulsivity and mood swings.

The shrink recommended I take tegretol and clonazepam. I had to get off the tegretol because of the horrible side effects. Another shrink diagnosed me as having asperger syndrome and impulsivity issues.

IMHO mental health is a total inexact science with a lot of stigma around it. In Carrie's defence a lot of shrinks recommend herbal products as well. One shrink who assessed me recommended that I take melatonin as a sleep aid.

Another problem is that the waiting list for shrinks in Ontario is on average over a year and a half long. I see my family doc once a week and she has me on clonazepam and melatonin.

Personally I'm not really depressed as I have come to terms with all my deficits and am making the best of my life.

It was my family doc who arranged for my 3 different psychiatric assessments as just to repeat it is almost impossible to get to see a shrink in toronto without going on a long waiting list!
Keep in mind that whichever specialist you see for a medical problem tends to view the answer with their toolbox.. remember that adage that a carpenter will see everything as a nail and use a hammer for every problem.

One of my points is that there are several problems with the psychiatric profession and medication isn't always the best answer.

You mention impulsivity and mood swings.. which I've had and which went completely away after I read the sugar blues book and quit ingesting sugar.

WOW.. who would have thought? See kids go beserk after eating sugary, dye-filled candies/sunnyD/Kool-ade etc? Try eating healthy unadulterated food and the kids moods go to sweet and amicable.

I saw this on Phil Donahue almost 25 years ago with a child who would throw severe tantrums. (I think I still have the VHS copy of it somewhere).. yet still we choose to look for diagnoses of new disorders and medicate.. why? because the pharmaceutical industry is a very lucrative business.
 

squash500

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Carrie Moon said:
Keep in mind that whichever specialist you see for a medical problem tends to view the answer with their toolbox.. remember that adage that a carpenter will see everything as a nail and use a hammer for every problem.

One of my points is that there are several problems with the psychiatric profession and medication isn't always the best answer.

You mention impulsivity and mood swings.. which I've had and which went completely away after I read the sugar blues book and quit ingesting sugar.

WOW.. who would have thought? See kids go beserk after eating sugary, dye-filled candies/sunnyD/Cool-aid etc? Try eating healthy unadulterated food and the kids moods go to sweet and amicable.

I saw this on Phil Donahue almost 25 years ago with a child who would throw severe tantrums. (I think I still have the VHS copy of it somewhere).. yet still we choose to look for diagnoses of new disorders and medicate.. why? because the pharmaceutical industry is a very lucrative business.
I agree with you Carrie:) . I've gotten in many disagreements with my family doc about medications. Every time I see my family doc it seems that a lot of pharmaceutical reps are hovering around her office.

When I was on tegretol for a short while I had to have all this bloodwork done. When the side effects became too severe I told my family doc straight up that I refuse to take this pill anymore. My doc understood.

A lot of patients don't realize the harmful long term effects that some of these psychiatric medications have on your body?

I try to look at things from the docs point of view. She sees me for 10-15 minutes once a week. Medicating me is certainly the easy answer. However I refuse to be a guinea pig for these potent anti-depressants. My doc has compromised with me and has kept me on clonazepam where the side effects are much easier to tolerate then most anti-depressent meds IMHO.

I find that simply walking in the fresh air for 15-20 minutes a day is starting to help elevate my mood.

IMHO shrinks and family docs have a tough job when it comes to diagnosing depression as there are so many factors that must be considered before making a proper diagnosis.

I'll try to cut out as much sugar as I can from my diet. I'll give your suggestion a try!
 

sibannac

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Carrie Moon said:
I saw this on Phil Donahue almost 25 years ago with a child who would throw severe tantrums. (I think I still have the VHS copy of it somewhere).. yet still we choose to look for diagnoses of new disorders and medicate.. why? because the pharmaceutical industry is a very lucrative business.

Phil Donahue? That's probably problem here. Personal attacks. I wasn't aware that pointing out that you are very wrong is a personal attack. Did you even bother to read the link I gave because if you did I can't see how you can possibly still think you are right.
 

Carrie Moon

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sibannac said:
Phil Donahue? That's probably problem here. Personal attacks. I wasn't aware that pointing out that you are very wrong is a personal attack. Did you even bother to read the link I gave because if you did I can't see how you can possibly still think you are right.
I used Phil Donahue as an example of how long this kind of thinking has been debated publically.. ie that food has no effect on your behaviour and that meds are the answer. The panel included was a neursurgeon turned malpractice lawyer who said food had no impact on your emotions/health and a naturopath who showed the video of the child before and after the offending foods throwing a tantrum. We don't ingest paint or other obviously toxic substances but think nothing of red/orange/yellow toxic food dyes. hmmm. who to trust?

You didn't point out that I was wrong. I'm very very acutely familiar with bipolar disorder not only with a direct family member but with several other friends. Hypomania is not simply increase of energy.. re-read your own link. I have tons of experience with this particular family member with depression, hypomania and mania..and by the way.. hypomania is still mania.. if there were no mania it would not be manic depression or bipolar disorder.
 

Carrie Moon

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Ivan said:
What is your situation anyway? what do you mean you don't see a way to improve your situation? At least you still want to and know how your situation can be improved.
I pretty much lost will to live for almost a year now. There are lots of things worng in my life but even hell if they improve I still dont see a reason to live other than for revenge. yes revenge, I had a betrayal and that is pretty much it. I know it is not the answer and know it is wrong and my conscience will not let me act on it, so I play the fantasy out in my head daily just to keep me going. that my friend is called depression...
Sorry to hear that...
 

Carrie Moon

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squash500 said:
I agree with you Carrie. I've gotten in many disagreements with my family doc about medications. Every time I see my family doc it seems that a lot of pharmaceutical reps are hovering around her office.
Actually having been in pre-med myself.. they start their campaigns in university.

squash500 said:
I find that simply walking in the fresh air for 15-20 minutes a day is starting to help elevate my mood.
Don't underestimate the power of vit D.. it's getting a ton of press lately.. and we aren't getting much sunshine these days never mind the lengthy winters

squash500 said:
IMHO shrinks and family docs have a tough job when it comes to diagnosing depression as there are so many factors that must be considered before making a proper diagnosis.
Absolutely they do.. and we and they have been trained to look for the quick fix.

squash500 said:
I'll try to cut out as much sugar as I can from my diet. I'll give your suggestion a try!
If you just read the first chapter I'm sure like me you'll be convinced :)
 

Carrie Moon

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Ivan said:
thanks carrie moon. your pictures intrigue me. one other reason that keeps me alive is wanting to feel the warmth inside women. every woman feels and tastes different and i want to experience as many different women as possible in this life. that is the 2nd reason keeping me alive. after seeing your pictures i want to burry my member inside your juice asset at least once before i leave this world.
that's flattering and thanks.. but I'm concerned about you. We all get blue periods but have you talked to someone about this?
 

Alexis_2

**Alexis**
Carrie, I've seen the 'classic' kind of manic-depressive or bipolar disorder you are talking about, up close - complete with psychotic episodes, hospitalization and thorazine. In the last 5 or 10 years I've also heard of quite a few people I know being diagnosed as 'bi-polar.' The rate of incidence is almost alarming .. and yet, their "disorders" have little or no resemblance at all to the classic M/D disorder I was familiar with.

It's like it's become trendy or something to label people ... these professional medicators are only too happy to find a box each one of us can fit in ...
 

Carrie Moon

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Alexis_2 said:
Carrie, I've seen the 'classic' kind of manic-depressive or bipolar disorder you are talking about, up close - complete with psychotic episodes, hospitalization and thorazine. In the last 5 or 10 years I've also heard of quite a few people I know being diagnosed as 'bi-polar.' The rate of incidence is almost alarming .. and yet, their "disorders" have little or no resemblance at all to the classic M/D disorder I was familiar with.

It's like it's become trendy or something to label people ... these professional medicators are only too happy to find a box each one of us can fit in ...
not only trendy to create new illnesses but lucrative if you can then prescribe a med for them.. and giving a dis-service to the people who are actually severely afflicted.
 

sibannac

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Alexis_2 said:
Carrie, I've seen the 'classic' kind of manic-depressive or bipolar disorder you are talking about, up close - complete with psychotic episodes, hospitalization and thorazine. In the last 5 or 10 years I've also heard of quite a few people I know being diagnosed as 'bi-polar.' The rate of incidence is almost alarming .. and yet, their "disorders" have little or no resemblance at all to the classic M/D disorder I was familiar with.

It's like it's become trendy or something to label people ... these professional medicators are only too happy to find a box each one of us can fit in ...

Not trendy just different forms of the same illness. The patient you describe is most likely Bipolar 1. There seems to be a reluctance to view the link I provided on the differences in symptoms so I might as well list them here along with the different types:

TYPES

Bipolar 1 - involves episodes of severe mood swings from mania to depression

Bipolar 2 - involves episodes of milder mood swings from milder episodes of hypomania to depression

Cyclothymic Disorder - describes even milder mood swings

Mixed Bipolar disorder - this is the bad one folks, well for the individual to go through - it involves people who manifest both mania and depression at the same time. To describe this as feeling imagine feeling grandiose with a million thoughts running through your head (racing thoughts) mixed with felling irritable, angry, moody and feeling bad all at the same time.

Rapid Cycling Bipolar disorder: Patients with this may experience 4 or more events in a twelve month period. Some people even have multiple episodes in one week. This usually develops in the later course of Bipolar patients an woman more often develop this condition then men. It is this condition that a patient is more likely to commit suicide and it is a condition that worries Doctors more than anything else regarding the possibility of death. While anyone of these conditions lead to suicide this one, rapid cycling is at the top of the list.

Description of Hypomania and Mania

Hypomania

At first when I'm high, it's tremendous ... ideas are fast ... like shooting stars you follow until brighter ones appear... . All shyness disappears, the right words and gestures are suddenly there ... uninteresting people, things become intensely interesting. Sensuality is pervasive, the desire to seduce and be seduced is irresistible. Your marrow is infused with unbelievable feelings of ease, power, well-being, omnipotence, euphoria ... you can do anything ... but somewhere this changes.

Signs of hypomania with bipolar II disorder include:



* Decreased need for sleep
* Extreme focus on projects at work or at home
* Exuberant and elated mood
* Increased confidence
* Increased creativity and productivity
* Increased energy and libido
* Reckless behaviors
* Risk-taking behaviors



Mania

The fast ideas start coming too fast and there are far too many ... overwhelming confusion replaces clarity ... you stop keeping up with it … memory goes. Infectious humor ceases to amuse. Your friends become frightened ... everything is now against the grain ... you are irritable, angry, frightened, uncontrollable, and trapped.

The signs of mania with bipolar disorder include:

* Disconnected and racing thoughts
* Grandiose notions
* Inappropriate elation
* Inappropriate irritability
* Inappropriate social behavior
* Increased sexual desire
* Increased talking speed and/or volume
* Markedly increased energy
* Poor judgment
* Severe insomnia


Some people with bipolar disorder become psychotic, hearing things that aren't there. They may hold onto false beliefs, and cannot be swayed from them. In some instances, they see themselves as having superhuman skills and powers -- even consider themselves to be god-like.

Depression with Bipolar disorder

The clinical depression symptoms seen with bipolar disorder include:

* Decreased appetite and/or weight loss, or overeating and weight gain
* Difficulty concentrating, remembering, and making decisions
* Fatigue, decreased energy, being "slowed down"
* Feelings of guilt, worthlessness, helplessness
* Feelings of hopelessness, pessimism
* Insomnia, early-morning awakening, or oversleeping
* Loss of interest or pleasure in hobbies and activities that were once enjoyed, including sex
* Persistent physical symptoms that do not respond to treatment, such as headaches, digestive disorders, and chronic pain
* Persistently sad, anxious, or "empty" moods
* Restlessness, irritability
* Thoughts of death or suicide, suicide attempts


As I've been saying this is a very complex illness and while it is way off topic to what the OP originally started I only started this conversation because the idea of medicating a 3 year old depression with St.Johns wort was troublesome to me. In fact doctors are reluctant to prescribe anti depressants to Bipolar patients because of the ability of these medications to create maniac conditions. The OP described himself as a three year old medicated depressive - that is simply too long for that condition. The OP needs to go further and seek additional help.

Going back to you Alex - yes it can seem like this is a catch all illness and that's because it has so many symptoms. This is not a rare illness and is present in 2.4% of the US population with the majority of these individuals being functional productive members of society if properly treated. The ignorance and stigmatization of this illness leads to many untreated individuals who are not functional.
 

Carrie Moon

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You just supported what I said and yes I did read your link. Read the hypomanic description. It is not simply a heightened energy. Hypomanic simply means less manic. It's still mania and is either treated with anti-psychotics or anxiolytics (anti-anxiety meds like valium).

You are correct when you say that if someone is hypomanic (which doubtful this OP is) they would likely be made worse by an anti-depressant including st. johns wort.

If the OP wasn't made manic by any of the other anti-depressants he was on why would you be so worried that St. Johns wort would? It's so much more mild than the other SSRI's and less side-effects. And it was only a suggestion amoungst many others.

Why not get upset that I would suggest other healthy things like fish oils, B vitamins, acupuncture, bach flowers?

You're obviously very interested in supporting the allopathic avenues to medicine. Simply respect other opinions..

Have you some personal experience with St. Johns wort that sent a person into a manic episode? The knee-jerk reaction makes me wonder.
 

sibannac

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Carrie Moon said:
You just supported what I said and yes I did read your link. Read the hypomanic description. It is not simply a heightened energy. Hypomanic simply means less manic. It's still mania and is either treated with anti-psychotics or anxiolytics (anti-anxiety meds like valium).

You are correct when you say that if someone is hypomanic (which doubtful this OP is) they would likely be made worse by an anti-depressant including st. johns wort.

If the OP wasn't made manic by any of the other anti-depressants he was on why would you be so worried that St. Johns wort would? It's so much more mild than the other SSRI's and less side-effects. And it was only a suggestion amoungst many others.

Why not get upset that I would suggest other healthy things like fish oils, B vitamins, acupuncture, bach flowers?

You're obviously very interested in supporting the allopathic avenues to medicine. Simply respect other opinions..

Have you some personal experience with St. Johns wort that sent a person into a manic episode? The knee-jerk reaction makes me wonder.
God I give up, you're a dog with a bone here. Okay lets answer this:

Description of Hypomania - yes I'm guilty of oversimplification with increased energy but I simply didn't wish to bore people with too much information. My previous post was to clarify. However increased energy almost always crashes to depression and is what doctors are looking for when diagnosing a Hypomaniac episode. And no Carrie Hypomaniac doesn't mean less maniac, medically it means BELOW Maniac. That is a very important distinction, since we are splitting hairs in that it describes a SEPERATE condition with very different symptoms.

I find it very interesting you have gone from Bipolar must always have mania to an acceptance of hypomania and Bipolar2. A very clear sign that you arguing for the sake of arguing.

I don't have a problem with a healthy lifestyle and it's a very important part of recovery for anyone with any illness let alone mental illness. However I do have problem as I've said many times with suggesting St John's Wort for anyone who presents themselves with 3 years of depression as the OP did.

As for the potential for St. John's Wort pushing a person into mania or hypomania - yes that concerns me because St John's Wort effects serotonin production in the body. For an untreated Bipolar patient this can be problematic in that it may delay treatment unnecessarily. As far as I'm concerned you shouldn't be messing with brain chemistry until you know what you are up against.

Finally, if you show me a bipolar patient treated holistically I will show you an untreated and sick individual.
 

sibannac

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Also what the OP has or has not is not the concern. Being treated for three years with no results for depression is way to long. As for whether the OP has had a hypomaniac episode, yes he didn't say however ,most bipolar 2 patients don't recognize hypomanic episodes because they are mild and because they think it's normal. It's actually a relief to them that they feel better from depression, but never lasts long.

So I don't know all the issues that the OP has but he needs to take the bull by the horns, seek proper and additional help and understand what he/she is going through is simply not normal. The Op doesn't needlessly have to go through this suffering, help is available.
 

Carrie Moon

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sibannac said:
I find it very interesting you have gone from Bipolar must always have mania to an acceptance of hypomania and Bipolar2.
I'm still maintaining that bipolar must always have mania. You agreed that you oversimplified hypomania with increased energy. Again I reiterate read the section of hypomania you copied. You would have everyone believing that a reprise from depression indicates bipolar 2. It does not. * Reckless behaviors
* Risk-taking behaviors are important indicators to hypomania

3 years of depression is serious of course but no-where is that a suggestion that bipolar 2 is indicated. You've still not proven me wrong on that point.

with reference to St. John's wort.. another issue entirely. If we were talking about a case with someone who has bipolar 2.. it's an issue. We are not for the sake of this argument.
 
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Cobster

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I think you guys should leave it be.
 

genintoronto

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Going back to the topic at hand, ie, providing the OP with some encouragement and advices:

You have received a lot of good advices here, but it just occured to me that all those advices and suggestions may seem overwhelming to you and end up being more counter-productive than anything.

So with that in mind, here's one of the best advice I got from my therapist at the time:

Start with small steps, small, doable objectives. For instance, depending at where you're at right now, it might mean giving yourself only one objective for the day: getting out of bed and fixing yourself one healthy meal. Tomorrow's objective: calling to make an appointment to see a doctor. Next day: taking a 15 minutes walk outside.

The idea is to give yourself small and reasonable objectives for your situation. And cut yourself some slack if one day you just can't do anything. Like any other illness, you'll have better days and bad days.
 

Cobster

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jwmorrice said:
Nah, I think they should move on to debating the fellow's PDM diagnosis! :p
http://www.pdm1.org/

jwm
lmao...exactly.
Poor OP has a wealth of information as is.
 
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