Because we see education as good. But University is not a job training program.
Ontario Teacher's Pension Plan
- Thread starter Insidious Von
- Start date
It does no matter what part of the curriculum they think might be broken.
If the union is compensated for managing the curriculum then they are accountable
Basket case & the two fools Frank have made it very clear the teachers are not accountable wrt the curriculmn
Every last one of them is accountable
If they can not make a saleable product this company will not be in business long and they all will be out of work
Accountability is a whole lot more than the fear of getting fired, it is about co-operative efforts to arrive at the best possible result
You lefties are too focused on blame and assigning it rather than focusing on a team effort in which the team is accountable and deserves credit when things go well
That is why unions are so poisonous, They immediate go into cover my ass mode and start point fingers at others, which is very counter productive and demoralizing
Do you think he province will be able to continue with that approach as jobs are displaced and competition for positions intensifies?
If so the inequality spread for youths will continue to grow
Time to spend some time in the real world frank
An organization can not pay everyone with 10 years experience $100K.
Assume the teaching career is 35-40 years
Nobody gets fired and nobody is going to get enticed away to the private sector.
Therefore 80-90% of the teachers have at least 10 years experience and are maxing out. (mathematical truism)
That is why the average is so high
Ten years is valuable experience , but it does not command top level pay for professions in the private sector for all.
Most do not get there until much later if at all
Once again teacher entitlement is making them too expensive for us to afford
So suggest how exactly the District Board should sort out the curriculum that they do not setup in the first place.
You are blaming the production workers and production managers / supervisors for the formula that is unacceptable although the product meets the test criteria. Yes the upper management along with various departments have to get together to sort out the issues and try to tweak the formula to make it more acceptable. That is similar to what the department of education should do going forward, after getting the feedback from the teachers. Having said that there are some parts of the curriculum that are working perfectly just like the numerous formulae within the same company.
I see you did not answer the question but instead sidetracked and somehow blamed the Unions and the Left etc. etc. Typical right wingie response.
Says the union head who would rather let an organization die rather than give up a concession
If they want to take programs like that, that's is their business, but we can not continue to subsidize such a waste
just be sure to take notes should they wind up expanding your youth inequality measures
then do not dare think about tax targeting anyone to address inequality, as you are justifying its expansion
No I think you fail to understand how much the workforce will change
#1 You have to use the average Canadian salary, they are the one paying the bills
#2 The $104 K has to be used when comparing salaries as it normalizes the excessive time off
Anyway you slice this it is unjustifiable and unsustainable
This is the perfect example of why the education system will never produce superior or even good results.
Can you imaging trying to get some improvements made to the curriculum by talking with the union
You ask a reasonable question and the union reply's with an answer like above.
Unless there is a better relationship between the teachers and the government, there is no way they will be able to cope with the changes coming
Parents will start turning to private schools and demanding tax relief
The Ministry sets the provincial curriculum, not the union.
You really are out of touch.
http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/teachers/curriculum.html
You really need a road map drawn for you in order to get any clear understanding don't you ?
Co-operative engagement with the union means asking the union for their input to hopefully make improvements
I guess co-operating with anyone must be a foreign concept for you, so you did not understand
Now who was that who was out of touch ?
Wait, first you complain about teachers now you want to change the system and let them design the curriculum?
Which is it?
Do want the government of the union setting the curriculum?
assuming they are accountable, I would suggest in the best way possible
Perhaps trying communication with those that designed it might be a good place to start
You do not get it
Unless the company can make a saleable product everyone's employment is at risk, so they are all need to be accountable.
If everyone is accountable the source of the problem will become apparent quickly and can be resolved quickly
If nobody is accountable then finger pointing and blaming will make it much more difficult (impossible) to resolve
Asking for input from those that deliver it is a smart move
Nobody said anything about letting the union design anything. Are you nuts?
Input should also be obtained from business on what future skills are going to be needed
Input from the collages and universities is also needed
Are you serious?
Again, I am saying that if numerous other products are selling well then the company will still do well. Obviously if a certain curriculum content is not suited for the students then it has to be addressed. But only the Government will be aware whether the curriculum requires to be modified and they have to cascade that information to the Education Boards. The teachers then have to revise the curriculum content as directed by the Education Department accordingly. You cannot blame everything on the teachers. But back to the salary subject. What should the teachers be paid if in your opinion they are overpaid? Do you think that you are also overpaid? I provided you with the link to the actual teachers pay scale that was significantly lower than your sources and I actually saw the pay stub to verify the claim. Does that mean that only some teachers are overpaid?
You should rejoice!
All your concerns are being implemented.
http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/about/excellent.html
The education system only has one output, graduates,
so your analogy and your assumption are not valid
So the problem could be anywhere in that series of steps or elsewhere
Again all you lefties are concerned about is deflecting blame
Do you not think it would be better to determine the source of the problem before trying to deflect blame ?
I have always maintained that a question about the quality of our kids education it should be investigated and resolved.
You loonies immediately go into blame defection mode in order to protect the teachers & the union
Basket case said the curriculum & Mike Harris were to blame before he switched to "There is no problem"
The Two fools Frank blamed the students the parents, the government and the taxpayer
Its pretty obvious they really do not give a rats ass about the students as they would rather protect teachers than have the issue investigated and resolved
If you are confident the teachers are not at fault then there should be no question , have it investigated and resolved
How old are you?
The province is the largest non sovereign debtor in the world
The province has run deficits for what seems like a decade
Interest rates have nowhere to go but up
Health Care costs and an aging population are going to drive government expenditures skyrocketing
The province can not tax their way out of this mess
teachers are paid 2.5 time the equivalent salary of average Canadian taxpayer (you know the ones that fund their compensation)
It takes the Ont tax from 3 average taxpayers to cover the cost of salary one teacher receives for the summer when they are not working
conclusion: We can not afford them
As soon as you fund some of my income you can ask that question
Since my taxes are the source of their income I have the right to question their compensation
No that means you
1. Did not ask the right questions of your friend (does she have 10 years teaching?)
2 Used a link of questionable quality
3. Think the Financial Post, Toronto Star, the Globe and the Waterloo paper editors are not doing their job
The average is $87k + $13k in benefits
You left out the timing
That message is four years old
I could be wrong, but I do not recall any major curriculum announcements in the last four years
So what was the conclusion / recommendations from all
. ?
Not everyone..... 10 years, plus 2 degrees, plus high marks in those degrees, plus teaching experience to even apply to teacher's college.
Why are you "NORMALIZING" teacher salary..... by that rationale a surgeon or lawyer should have their "real" pay scaled up to a 40h week?
Clearly you have no idea of what salary means. To discuss the amount of time they spend working is a moot point.
https://careers.workopolis.com/advice/five-surprising-jobs-that-pay-six-figure-salaries/
Teachers 83K
https://www.livingin-canada.com/work-salaries-wages-canada.html
Average male/female makes 27 to 23 per hour.... So lets call it 25 x 40 hours x 50 weeks = 50K
So 1.6 x is the real difference..... which is again not shocking when that person has 2 degrees, 80+% average, worked 8 years, substitute taught for 4 years before that, plus teaching experiences to put on their application.
You're inflating the difference by "normalizing" which makes zero sense.... your point is about the cost to tax payers and you are billing them for a price that is not real.
You are also making a 1 to 1 comparison which also makes no sense because there's 10 million plus tax payers and somewhere around 200K teachers..... so sure they make 1.7x more but there's 50x more people paying taxes.
Not to mention that teacher is paying taxes so the actual cost is less as they help to pay their own salary.
Teachers 83K
https://www.livingin-canada.com/work-salaries-wages-canada.html
Average male/female makes 27 to 23 per hour.... So lets call it 25 x 40 hours x 50 weeks = 50K
So 1.6 x is the real difference..... which is again not shocking when that person has 2 degrees, 80+% average, worked 8 years, substitute taught for 4 years before that, plus teaching experiences to put on their application.
You're inflating the difference by "normalizing" which makes zero sense.... your point is about the cost to tax payers and you are billing them for a price that is not real.
You are also making a 1 to 1 comparison which also makes no sense because there's 10 million plus tax payers and somewhere around 200K teachers..... so sure they make 1.7x more but there's 50x more people paying taxes.
Not to mention that teacher is paying taxes so the actual cost is less as they help to pay their own salary.
You're not factoring in that teachers have much better pensions/benefits than the average person. 2 degrees isn't all that rare these days...80%+ isn't impressive, and 12-years experience is nothing.
Arguing that there are 10 million taxpayers, but only 200 thousand teachers would be a valid point only if taxpayers didn't also have to pay for police, doctors, firemen, government services and every other government funded institution. So yeah, 200K teachers is a big drag on those 10 million taxpayers.
