Ontario Teacher's Pension Plan

[basketcase]

Do you realize how irresponsible it is to dismiss reports of an issue because they may prove this union is detrimental to the best interest of students and the long term health of our economy?

So you admit there is no evidence of gross incompetence among teachers so any issues with the system mainly lay at the feet of the people who decide what the system is.

I rely on facts such as OECD testing over the opinions of a few profs quoted in a news report. I also understand that the Ministry of Education are the ones who define the curriculum.

 

[basketcase]

Basketcase and the two fools Frank have maintained a position any quality issues related to the education system are due to the curriculum
They also maintain teachers are not accountable for the curriculum....

On the first, you are the one claiming there is problems with the system despite OECD data that places Canada as one of the top performing systems in the world. On the second, teachers are accountable for implementing the curriculum given to them by their employers.

In my business, I give my crew specs and designs. If they choose to change those designs on their own, they get fired (granted, it is far easier for one of my machinists to talk with me about their concerns than it is for a teacher to sit down with the minister of education).

 

[Frankfooter]

One post after you state there is a problem?

Yes, I said the same thing.
Kind of like this thread, we post the stats, you say they don't count, we post the one issue with education (business model) you say it doesn't count.
And then you whine about unions some more.

That's not an investigation on your part, all you do is repeat the same opinions every post.
You have no evidence to back your claims.

 

[JohnLarue]

On the first, you are the one claiming there is problems with the system despite OECD data that places Canada as one of the top performing systems in the world. On the second, teachers are accountable for implementing the curriculum given to them by their employers.

Funny you stated there was a problem and specifically blamed Mike Harris
If you are confident the teachers are not the issue, why are you so afraid of a deeper dive?

You blame the curriculum
You do this before any investigation has taken place
It may be the curriculum, it may be the management of the curriculum
It may be the delivery of the curriculum

you do not know with certainty

In my business, I give my crew specs and designs. If they choose to change those designs on their own, they get fired (granted, it is far easier for one of my machinists to talk with me about their concerns than it is for a teacher to sit down with the minister of education).

They are being compensated for managing the curriculum, so they are accountable

 

[JohnLarue]

Yes, I said the same thing.
Kind of like this thread, we post the stats, you say they don't count, we post the one issue with education (business model) you say it doesn't count.

% of GDP ?
Teachers pay taxes too so they are entitled?
Ranking of teachers by other teachers?
Teachers are not accountable for the quality, yet they deserve excessive compensation because of the value of education ?

You only have one issue you say ?
Lets see, you blame the students, the parents, the government and the taxpayer
You say the business model is the problem
You say the curriculum is the problem
You blow a fuse if the compensation is not presented in your canned misleading way

You have quite a few issues

And you expect anyone to take you seriously ?

And then you whine about unions some more.

They do not put the students interest first and foremost, so why is there a union involved in this process at all?

That's not an investigation on your part, all you do is repeat the same opinions every post.

you do not seem to learning, so we shall try again

You have no evidence to back your claims.

Oh sure I do, you just want to ignore it

You are not fooling anyone expect yourself and that is not a big accomplishment

 

[Frankfooter]

% of GDP ?
Teachers pay taxes too so they are entitled?
Ranking of teachers by other teachers?
Teachers are not accountable for the quality, yet they deserve excessive compensation because of the value of education ?

You only have one issue you say ?
Lets see, you blame the students, the parents, the government and the taxpayer
You say the business model is the problem
You say the curriculum is the problem
You blow a fuse if the compensation is not presented in your canned misleading way

You have quite a few issues

And you expect anyone to take you seriously ?


They do not put the students interest first and foremost, so why is there a union involved in this process at all?


you do not seem to learning, so we shall try again


Oh sure I do, you just want to ignore it

You are not fooling anyone expect yourself and that is not a big accomplishment

Such a rambling and nonsensical post, larue.

I blame elected officials for applying the business model to education.
Nobody else.

Teachers are doing as good a job as they can given the curriculum and mandate.

 

[JohnLarue]

I blame elected officials for applying the business model to education.
Nobody else.

How can defiantly assign blame before the investigation has started and without knowing the facts?
You do not know exactly what the cause of the problem(s) are

Teachers are doing as good a job as they can given the curriculum and mandate.

As good a job as they can ?????

That is not good enough for our most valuable asset , our kids
For $100K in comp costs we expect better than that
For $100K in comp costs in the real world , you have to be accountable and you had better provide a lot more answers than excuses

So far ALL I have heard are excuses

Look if you are confident teachers are not the issue, you should have no trouble with an investigation to find the true source of the problem

The changes coming and coming soon will dictate a change in the curriculum
Best an independent consulting firm engage business and develop a clear understanding of what skills these kids are going to need in order to gain employment
They can also examine all aspects of the education process identify if there is a systemic problem and make recommendations

If you are 100% confident the problem lies outside of the union, then you should welcome this.
Anything for the kids right?
Oh yeah, they are not your primary concern are they?

 

[Frankfooter]

How can defiantly assign blame before the investigation has started and without knowing the facts?
You do not know exactly what the cause of the problem(s) are

It was in the first article you linked to us about the problem.
You found it and showed it.

Are you saying you didn't know the facts when you presented that article?

 

[frankcastle]

Nobody is arguing that work is changing but the basic remain the same.

You need a person who is literate with a basic understand of math science etc. The education system teaches the fundamentals.

College, University and the trades build on that.

The change that kids need to make is in their post secondary choices.

And people like JL need to realize not all degrees are of equal value. If you graduate with a poli sci degree and can't find work the issue is not the quality of education you received but the realities of the job market. The only way to make the PS degree with more is to change the subject to match the job market but at that point you are no longer studying poli sci.

 

[basketcase]

Funny you stated there was a problem and specifically blamed Mike Harris...

Harris and subsequent Liberal governments have dumbed down the curriculum. It is still one of the best on the world.

You blame the curriculum
You do this before any investigation has taken place
It may be the curriculum, it may be the management of the curriculum
It may be the delivery of the curriculum

you do not know with certainty

Funny. Your whole argument is based on teachers being incompetent but now you are forced to admit you are just making things up.

 

[JohnLarue]

It was in the first article you linked to us about the problem.
You found it and showed it.

Are you saying you didn't know the facts when you presented that article?

The facts: The articles say graduating kids are not well prepared for what lies ahead of them
identifying exactly why is the logical next step and then how to fix it is another level of difficulty

 

[JohnLarue]

Nobody is arguing that work is changing but the basic remain the same.

You need a person who is literate with a basic understand of math science etc. The education system teaches the fundamentals.

College, University and the trades build on that.

The change that kids need to make is in their post secondary choices.

And people like JL need to realize not all degrees are of equal value. If you graduate with a poli sci degree and can't find work the issue is not the quality of education you received but the realities of the job market. The only way to make the PS degree with more is to change the subject to match the job market but at that point you are no longer studying poli sci.

why are we subsidizing programs in political science when there are no jobs for political scientists?

I know not all degrees are of equal value, that is hardly relevant
What is relevant is providing programs which build the skills required to gain employment.
A lot of jobs will be displaced which will increase competition for positions and an increased level of expectations for relevant skills.
It is real tough for youth to break into the workplace now, its not going to get any easier
The bar for success is going to have be a lot higher than just the fundamentals
The colleges and universities will need to adapt quickly as well

 

[JohnLarue]

Harris and subsequent Liberal governments have dumbed down the curriculum. It is still one of the best on the world.


Funny. Your whole argument is based on teachers being incompetent but now you are forced to admit you are just making things up.

What is funny is that you choose go into blame mode first. You blamed Mike Harris
Why bother blaming anyone, if it is as you say

"It is still one of the best on the world."

I have said all along if there are questions about the quality of the education, then it should be investigated

You were the one who shot back immediately that it was the curriculum at fault.
It might be, it might not be , no one will truly know unless it is investigated and reviewed

If you think the curriculum is broken, then do you not think it would be wise to have someone evaluative it and determine if it is meeting its objective and if it can meeting the changing requirements 5 & 10 years out?

you are forced to admit you are just making things up

Ah ...No
where you got that is anyone's guess

 

[Frankfooter]

why are we subsidizing programs in political science when there are no jobs for political scientists?

Because there is value in having a public that understands political science.
Otherwise you get a population that elects Trumps and Fords.

Otherwise you get people who don't understand terms like endgame capitalism.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/paradise-papers-rent-capitalism-tax-havens-1.4389079

 

[JohnLarue]

Because there is value in having a public that understands political science.
Otherwise you get a population that elects Trumps and Fords.

Otherwise you get people who don't understand terms like endgame capitalism.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/paradise-papers-rent-capitalism-tax-havens-1.4389079

That is the most ridiculous answer you could have come up with

We are wasting money subsidizing programs that do not lead to sustainable employment in order to perpetuate the lunacy of the unproductive left?
That is self fulfilling

That answer is worse than wasting money because Political Science is where some students have an interest

The output from the educational system will need to become far more focused on the areas where there are employment opportunities

Please confine your answers to something intelligent going forward

 

[Frankfooter]

That is the most ridiculous answer you could have come up with

I'd say your replies on this thread are the perfect rebuttal to your statement.
Your lack of understanding combined with your hatred of unions and fair wages really shows what the lack of balanced education creates.

Hey, did you read the letter from 400 US millionaires telling Trump to not cut their taxes?
http://www.responsiblewealth.org/

 

[bver_hunter]

Basketcase and the two fools Frank have maintained a position any quality issues related to the education system are due to the curriculum
They also maintain teachers are not accountable for the curriculum.
A very convenient position considering the excessive compensation they receive

Now we find out that they are compensated for managing the curriculum, however they are still not accountable.

Accountability is inherent in managing

This is a completely dysfunctional arrangement which will never lead to superior results
This dysfunctional arrangement is further compounded by an adversarial relationship between the govt and the union

I think our students deserve much netter than mediocre (at best) or failure (at worst) which can only come from such a mess

In addition the changes in technology, artificial intelligence and robotics are going to transform the nature of the workplace in a very significant way and very soon
There is no way in hell that the such a dysfunctional education system is going to be able to adapt and prepare these students for entry into the workforce in a far more challenging environment

The inequality gap for our young will continue to widen

I think that you are not comprehending that the curriculum content is what they are trying to tell you and not how it is managed or implemented.
Let us take the pharmaceutical sector as a comparison. The product idea that originates from the marketing sector is approved by upper management, researched and developed by the R&D Department and then the formula is finalised after all the testing meeting the criteria. The lab batches are then approved by upper management. It then goes to production that is managed by the production manager and supervisors. The final product may pass all the test criteria, but the product may not meet the consumer expectations, in spite of passing all the tests and matches the lab batches. Do you then blame the production workers who implemented the production SOP of the formula, and the production manager who managed the production and was accountable for the manner in which the product was manufactured, or do you blame the formula itself that did not meet the consumers expectations?

 

[frankcastle]

why are we subsidizing programs in political science when there are no jobs for political scientists?

I know not all degrees are of equal value, that is hardly relevant
What is relevant is providing programs which build the skills required to gain employment.
A lot of jobs will be displaced which will increase competition for positions and an increased level of expectations for relevant skills.
It is real tough for youth to break into the workplace now, its not going to get any easier
The bar for success is going to have be a lot higher than just the fundamentals
The colleges and universities will need to adapt quickly as well

We are subsidizing it because university is about "higher learning" that's why you can study philosophy, English lit, history, fine arts etc. It's the same reason why in the UK the national museums and art galleries are free.... not everything is about profit.

Also, university is about choice..... choosing to do something you are passionate about. It doesn't mean a guaranteed high income..... if you spent your time studying Grecian Urns you shouldn't be surprised that there aren't many high paying jobs for you..... they exist.... they are just tough to get.

If you want the work force skill set to equal the job market then what you are talking about is that we should be streaming kids into professions rather than letting them choose.

I think you are under valuing fundamentals..... get example is sports.... if you can't master the basic skill then having a complicated scheme and fancy plays is useless.

Now back to your thing about 100K being too much when compared to the average Canadian...... what you and the other guy conveniently forgot to do was to use the average teacher salary to compare to the average Canadian.... instead you choose to use max teacher salary vs average Canadian. That is why when I posted the link with salaries from other countries you guys pointed out that Canada had a greater disparity.... but that's only true if you use 100K rather than average teacher salary..... if you did that you'd see we are comparable to other first world countries.

 

[frankcastle]

Oh also in the past I had mentioned why 100K doesn't seem that strange for a person who has worked 10+ years, has two degrees..... I forgot to mention that the person also has to be a pretty good student as I think to get into teachers college you need an average higher than 80%. In other words they are A minus students. Also, to apply to teachers college you need teaching experience.

I would say that for most people with 2 degrees and that much experience plus time in their field plus being on the higher end of their class they should expect to be paid quite well.

 

[basketcase]

That is the most ridiculous answer you could have come up with...

From the guy who demanded proof of a negative to defend his arguments.