Ont. boy killed by train

[james t kirk]

Except they typically don't go that fast. In 2018, Canada's freight trains traveled with an average speed of around 38 kilometers per hour.

I don't believe for a second you can't hear an approaching freight train. For starters, they have one or more 4,000 HP diesel electric engines driving them. The sound level of the air horns is between 96 and 110 decibels. The only reason you may not hear one is if you're walking on the tracks with a head wind and the train is coming up from behind you.

There's a set of track about a kilometer behind my cottage. My wife and I follow the trails through the bush to them a few times each summer. We've stood beside the tracks when a train has gone by and you can definitely hear it approaching.

When you're on the track, standing on the track, trains are virtually silent until they are right on top of you by which time, you probably don't have the reflexes to jump out of the way. And if there are 2 tracks, if the train comes up from behind you, you have a 50 50 chance of jumping on to the track the train is on.

4,000 hp is meaningless. What makes the noise on a vehicle is:

The exhaust
The tires on the road
The engine.

With a train, the wheels are steel on steel rails = no noise. Freights make noise when the locomotive first begin to pull out the slack from the couplers. That's how they get them started. He doesn't start pulling the entire freight train. He creeps forward and takes the slack out of the coupler, in essence, he's pulling just one car. Then another and another and so on. If the couplers were all fully tight, the wheels on the locomotive would just spin. Once the train is in movement, you can be standing right beside the train and it's silent. (Save and except for wheels with a flat spot.) I have stood right beside a freight train that was moving slowly in the yard. It's silent.

The exhaust on a locomotive is pointing skyward straight up from the roof of the locomotive which is about 16' off the ground.
Then engine is enclosed in a compartment

They are SILENT until they are on top of you.

As to average speed, that's meaningless. You can drown in a river that has an average depth of 2 feet. In the case of trains, freights can and easily d0 60 miles per hour. Depends on the class of track. Class 5 track, freights will do 60 mph where permitted. Passenger trains will do 90 miles per hour.

Again, for the 3'rd time, your cottage is meaningless. It's not built on the track, it's built a kilometer away from the track. Sound of the train can be heard in that case.

 

[james t kirk]

This woman almost got clipped by a GO Train.

How come she didn't hear it?

 

[james t kirk]

Some interesting reading:

From the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers:

If you hear the train coming, it's too late

PHILADELPHIA -- You won't hear the rumble and grumble of a diesel locomotive. You won't hear the clickety-clack sound of wheels on gaps in the ra

www.ble-t.org

Or Popular Mechanics

How Trains Can Be Silent Killers

How everything from train tracks to surrounding terrain can make several hundred tons of steel quietand potentially deadly.

www.popularmechanics.com

But hey, "they don't have real life experience", or "my cottage is built a kilometer away from the tracks" Yeah, that means you know what the fuck you're talking about.

 

[james t kirk]

As I said, the only warning you'll hear on the tracks is "ting" "ting" ting" about not even as loud as you would egage someone in conversation and about 2 seconds before he's on top of you.

Best is when he comes around a corner and you're right there. He won't have time to hit the whistle and you won't even know what hit you.

 

[GameBoy27]

Again, for the 3'rd time, your cottage is meaningless. It's not built on the track, it's built a kilometer away from the track. Sound of the train can be heard in that case.

I said we've often walked through the trails to stand a couple feet from the tracks as the train approaches and passes by. Each time we've been able to hear it coming. Just telling you my real world experience. If we couldn't hear the train, I would've said, we couldn't hear the train. I have no reason to lie.

 

[GameBoy27]

But hey, "they don't have real life experience", or "my cottage is built a kilometer away from the tracks" Yeah, that means you know what the fuck you're talking about.

If you care to read my post, I said "We've stood beside the tracks when a train has gone by and you can definitely hear it approaching." Not, we can hear the train from the cottage a km away.

 

[shack]

I said we've often walked through the trails to stand a couple feet from the tracks as the train approaches and passes by. Each time we've been able to hear it coming. Just telling you my real world experience. If we couldn't hear the train, I would've said, we couldn't hear the train. I have no reason to lie.

Then how do you explain the news reporting team and the GO video? It seems that there is a difference between being a few feet from the track to being "on" the track. As kirk explained it's the doppler which is definitely a function of direction. In this case it is being directly online with the trains direction as opposed to an angle of a few degrees. He has provided a scientific explanation. No one has provided anything scientific.

Even though it does not seem intuitive, I'm convinced.

 

[GameBoy27]

Then how do you explain the news reporting team and the GO video? It seems that there is a difference between being a few feet from the track to being "on" the track. As kirk explained it's the doppler which is definitely a function of direction. In this case it is being directly online with the trains direction as opposed to an angle of a few degrees. He has provided a scientific explanation. No one has provided anything scientific.

Even though it does not seem intuitive, I'm convinced.

I'm not saying you can always hear an approaching train and I'm not saying they're completely silent either. There's definitely conditions that make them easier or more difficult to hear.

- Speed of the train
- Wind velocity and direction
- The use of CWR which stands for Continuous Welded Rail meaning there are less joints in the rail which means the clickety-clack of the train is gone
- If they're running as a push-pull train with a locomotive on one end and what is called a control unit on the other. The locomotive either pulls the cars or pushes the cars. When the locomotive is pushing, it is at the end of the train, unmanned and controlled by remote from the control unit leading the train. It's quiet for anyone in front of the train because the control unit has no power. It's as quiet as any of the passenger cars on the train, so if you were in front of it you might not even hear it.

As for the GO video, many people are simply unaware of their surroundings. Or they may have been wearing headphones or distracted by other noises or it was a push-pull train powered by the rear locomotive.

 

[nottyboi]

If you care to read my post, I said "We've stood beside the tracks when a train has gone by and you can definitely hear it approaching." Not, we can hear the train from the cottage a km away.

Ok if ur so confident stand on the tracks with your back facing the train and see if it works... geez. Sound is a wave. and various conditions can cause waves to cancel each other out. Have you heard of noise cancelling headphones? The same thing can happen in nature. Maybe this kid was dumb enough to wear noise cancelling buds who knows.

 

[nottyboi]

I'm not saying you can always hear an approaching train and I'm not saying they're completely silent either. There's definitely conditions that make them easier or more difficult to hear.

- Speed of the train
- Wind velocity and direction
- The use of CWR which stands for Continuous Welded Rail meaning there are less joints in the rail which means the clickety-clack of the train is gone
- If they're running as a push-pull train with a locomotive on one end and what is called a control unit on the other. The locomotive either pulls the cars or pushes the cars. When the locomotive is pushing, it is at the end of the train, unmanned and controlled by remote from the control unit leading the train. It's quiet for anyone in front of the train because the control unit has no power. It's as quiet as any of the passenger cars on the train, so if you were in front of it you might not even hear it.

As for the GO video, many people are simply unaware of their surroundings. Or they may have been wearing headphones or distracted by other noises or it was a push-pull train powered by the rear locomotive.

As I said, at 300 feet it makes about as much noise as the interior of a mercedes S class. At that point your death is already imminent.

 

[nottyboi]

Then how do you explain the news reporting team and the GO video? It seems that there is a difference between being a few feet from the track to being "on" the track. As kirk explained it's the doppler which is definitely a function of direction. In this case it is being directly online with the trains direction as opposed to an angle of a few degrees. He has provided a scientific explanation. No one has provided anything scientific.

Even though it does not seem intuitive, I'm convinced.

Just like soldiers always say, you never hear the round that gets you.

 

[james t kirk]

I'm not saying you can always hear an approaching train and I'm not saying they're completely silent either. There's definitely conditions that make them easier or more difficult to hear.

- Speed of the train
- Wind velocity and direction
- The use of CWR which stands for Continuous Welded Rail meaning there are less joints in the rail which means the clickety-clack of the train is gone
- If they're running as a push-pull train with a locomotive on one end and what is called a control unit on the other. The locomotive either pulls the cars or pushes the cars. When the locomotive is pushing, it is at the end of the train, unmanned and controlled by remote from the control unit leading the train. It's quiet for anyone in front of the train because the control unit has no power. It's as quiet as any of the passenger cars on the train, so if you were in front of it you might not even hear it.

As for the GO video, many people are simply unaware of their surroundings. Or they may have been wearing headphones or distracted by other noises or it was a push-pull train powered by the rear locomotive.

GO Trains only have 1 engine. Unknown whether or not that lady was wearing headphones. I doubt it. She looked older. I doubt she was rocking along to Metalica.

I'm speaking from very real world experience. And I certainly have no reason to lie.

On the track, you will not hear an approaching train. Hopefully you see him. Because if you're relying solely on your ears, you won't have time to process and react.

 

[GameBoy27]

Ok if ur so confident stand on the tracks with your back facing the train and see if it works... geez. Sound is a wave. and various conditions can cause waves to cancel each other out. Have you heard of noise cancelling headphones? The same thing can happen in nature. Maybe this kid was dumb enough to wear noise cancelling buds who knows.

I would never stand on the tracks, I'm smarter than that because it's possible that I wouldn't hear an approaching train. But that's not to say one can never hear one approaching. Yes, I'm very familiar with noise cancelling headphones. I bought a set of Bose when I first started taking flying lessons many years ago. Even listening to standard earbuds would be enough to prevent you from hearing a train.

 

[nottyboi]

I would never stand on the tracks, I'm smarter than that because it's possible that I wouldn't hear an approaching train. But that's not to say one can never hear one approaching. Yes, I'm very familiar with noise cancelling headphones. I bought a set of Bose when I first started taking flying lessons many years ago. Even listening to standard earbuds would be enough to prevent you from hearing a train.

Well at least you admit there are conditions you may not hear it. Best to assume you WILL Not hear it and operate on that basis. I wonder what happened to the dog, maybe it started barking and pulled away and before the kid could realize why the dog was reacting it was too late.

 

[dickydoem]

Speeds are determined by the track class. I've never seen a freight train traveling anywhere close to 80 MPH before. Like I said, the average is 24 MPH.

You are wrong about that. I often watch trains on the CN line between Toronto and Windsor (the line this boy was on) and when they pass a detector the speed is read out (can be picked up with a radio on the same frequency) and usually freights are in the mid 50 MPH range and VIA trains are 70 MPH+.

 

[GameBoy27]

You are wrong about that. I often watch trains on the CN line between Toronto and Windsor (the line this boy was on) and when they pass a detector the speed is read out (can be picked up with a radio on the same frequency) and usually freights are in the mid 50 MPH range and VIA trains are 70 MPH+.

I said the average speed of Canada's freight trains. Not how fast they go on one line between Toronto and Windsor. https://www.statista.com/statistics/548553/average-train-speed-canadian-pacific-railway/

 

[TeeJay]

Speeds are determined by the track class. I've never seen a freight train traveling anywhere close to 80 MPH before. Like I said, the average is 24 MPH.

Not at all there are TONS of things that effect speeds

As a classic example; freight train going through Kleinburg / Vaughan is slowed to a crawl because of neighbours complains about noise
GO Trains travel much faster outside of GTA than inside GTA

The Track Class system you are referring to is an American speed limit system (it is under Federal Railroad Administration)
Just as Ontario roads have different speed limits than New York state our rules and laws are nothing alike


Also just as an FYI
In Canada our speed limits are higher than USA (current is 35 miles in city and 40 mils outside city if freight is dangerous)
We just LOWERED the speeds last year pre-pandemic (Feb 2020) after a major derailment

The new limits are discussed here:

Minister of Transport updates Ministerial Order to reduce the risks of derailment of trains transporting dangerous goods - Canada.ca

To protect Canadians who live along our rail corridors, it is critical that the movement of dangerous goods by rail is done in a safe way.

www.canada.ca

 

[TeeJay]

You are wrong about that. I often watch trains on the CN line between Toronto and Windsor (the line this boy was on) and when they pass a detector the speed is read out (can be picked up with a radio on the same frequency) and usually freights are in the mid 50 MPH range and VIA trains are 70 MPH+.

This changed last year; see my other post
After dangerous derailment they reduced speed limits in Canada
(Gameboys comments about how speeds are set is pulled from Wiki and based on USA sources so totally irrelevant)

 

[GameBoy27]

This changed last year; see my other post
After dangerous derailment they reduced speed limits in Canada
(Gameboys comments about how speeds are set is pulled from Wiki and based on USA sources so totally irrelevant)

Nope... You're wrong again TeeJay. Which is a common theme I might add.

Freight train speed – Canadian railroad transportation 2010–2018

Published by Statista Research Department, Aug 10, 2020
In 2018, Canada’s freight trains traveled with an average speed of around 38 kilometers per hour, a drop from the previous years on record. In fact, this average is the lowest speed observed between 2010 and 2018. Average train speed is obtained by dividing train kilometers by train hours. Train hours may include en route train switching time, according to the source.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/555082/canada-rail-freight-train-speed/

38 km/h = 23.61 mph

 

[benstt]

Average train speed is obtained by dividing train kilometers by train hours. Train hours may include en route train switching time, according to the source.

How is average speed, which may include times the trains are stopped, relevant to the cases being discussed here where the trains go faster than average?