Once a John, Always a .............

[Ulan Bator]

Originally posted by BallzDeep:

Guys try to cross the line all the time on this board, just the other day a girl posted that her car battery was dead and within minutes some guy was offering to go over and boost her, wasn't what she asked but he offered anyway.

Anytime an sp has any kind of problem and they post it on here, many guys are offerering to go over and help her, they're just asking for advice and guys always think they need to go over and help her, we're just johns, nothing more. If they need a boost, they'll call CAA, not us.

These girls don't want their real life and this life intersecting.

Remember the slogan 'It's a business doing pleasure with you'


Thank you Ballz...

It was these kinds of things that prompted me to post in the first place. Posters who make these sorts of offers need to ask themselves why they are bothering. What are their real reasons? Is it to help? Is it really? Or is it in the expectation of some sort of reward? Why do they feel the need to try to ingratiate themselves with the lady in question?

In a few words - GET OVER IT! YOUR JUST A JOHN NOT A HERO NOR A KNIGHT IN SHINING ARMOUR......

 

[Hard Idle]

Where to begin?

Being worried by a breakoff in communication with a woman who works in a high risk industry is very reasonable and is sign of some level of human compassion.

I also think that most sane and well adjusted individuals would not need an explanation as to how discouraging or thwarting a criminal assault is not only the right thing to do on a personal level but also makes the community in general a better place.

Providing satisfactory answers to the OP's questions is a tall order. To even ask "why" suggests the lack of an intrnal morality system without which the explanations can not make sense. But for the sake of the discussion I'll give it a shot in the next post...

 

[Hard Idle]

... I remembered reading a post one time (here on the TERB actually) about an SP who had dropped out of sight for one reason or another and a poster commenting that he was 'worried about her'. Why? Would she worry if that person stopped calling her for whatever reason? ...

Or the poster that said if he heard a client yelling at a lady in an MP, he'd jump up from the table and intervene to 'protect' her. Why? ...

Why do some people feel that being some sort of hero, saviour or 'buddy' to an SP or MPA will make them more than just a 'john'?? It doesn't.

It seems you take it for a forgone conclusion that the Customers in your examples were trying to "take things to another level". There is more than one reason for doing friendly, positive or humane things.

Maybe in your mind there can be no other motivation for kindness or generosity other than to get something in return. But many other people simply enjoy decency and kindness for their own peace of mind - being the person they want to be, without preconditions for graditude or recognition.

In a nutshell, Ulan Bator: Those men which you view as foolish may just be fundamentally honourable people with many redeeming qulities who also happen to buy sex.

You on the other hand, actually are just a John.

 

[Davy.Biggie]

hard idle hit the nail on the head.
"Maybe in your mind there can be no other motivation for kindness or generosity other than to get something in return. But many other people simply enjoy decency and kindness for their own peace of mind - being the person they want to be, without preconditions for graditude or recognition."

 

[The Options Menu]

hard idle hit the nail on the head.
"Maybe in your mind there can be no other motivation for kindness or generosity other than to get something in return. But many other people simply enjoy decency and kindness for their own peace of mind - being the person they want to be, without preconditions for graditude or recognition."

But the counter to that is, "Maybe they're just trying to weasel their way in". There will (and should) always be that evaluative judgement there, and you can't blame people for being cautious. That goes for both sides of the John provider relationship. I'm all for being nice, helpful, and pleasant but I fully understand why 'see you next time' would be a common response.

 

[Davy.Biggie]

we are all different.

some of us understand that even though an SP is providing a service she and her privacy still need to be respected.

Some do not respect the SP and assume because they pay that they can do whatever they like.

Some of us are men and some are mice.

 

[enduser1]

Some of us seem a little bitter. At least half the providers that I know (mostly dancers) have some or all of their romantic relationships with men they meet at work. There are indeed some providers who put up a solid emotional wall, but some are just like people who work at any other job. Meaning that they like some of their customers, dislike others, attracted to some, etc. You can not assume that an SP will not like you, or want an outside relationship with you, maybe she will. It is not inappropriate to ask her, if you do it respectfully, and do not bug her, or stalk her, or make her feel uncomfortable, or whatever.

The big difference between SPs and other kinds of workers, is that with regular people, if a women fucks you, and is really attentive and loving, you can likely assume that she likes you. With an SP, you really can't tell, she is probably just doing her job. But it is not a 100% rule, there are plenty of exceptions.

Great post. I agree. The thing is you never know who you are going to run into. Sometimes romance is just serendipity, (I hope I spelled that right)

 

[Ulan Bator]

You on the other hand, actually are just a John.

So are you sport.......like it or not..........

 

[Bear669]

Good for You!

Yup, it happens. Quite often but it really is not an easy or savory change.
I've established friendships with very select clients that I got along with and I got burned TERRIBLY by the end of the friendship. For some reason, certain guys think that once you become friends, sex is just a natural daily occurrence...and of course they don't have to pay. (I mean, I am having sex all day, everyday aren't I? I should be able to squeeze them into my day somewhere free of charge...*dripping with sarcasm*)

If they manage to get it through their heads that I am probably not going to want to entertain that bed-ridden fantasy, then it moves onto something more romantic. Dinner, candles, Barry White and some wine...hoping to lead into sex. (lol, the wool was pulled RIGHT OVER my eyes.)

If they manage to get past the wining and dining stage, they start to see what Noir is really about - the fact that I don't shave my arm pits on my off days, I like to have my hair up and I don't in fact clean my house in 7" stilettos. Sometimes they stay after that...sometimes they don't. I have met some "friends" who used to be clients, but realistically very few of them stayed once they realized that I wasn't going to confess my life story in one day, and that I don't fall for their MO of getting free punani (anymore).

When there is no money exchanged, no sexual activities taking place and a mutual respect between both parties - then you are friends. If you're screwing on the side with no money exchanged, you're a FB. If there are confirmed romantic feelings between the two parties then it's called dating. Just like normal people. ^_^

I find that it is very difficult to move between the two levels of a real friendship and a business engagement, given the fact that I (as an SP) has been with you (client) at your most intimate time. It's kind of hard for most hobbyists to sweep that under the rug and look at an SP as a normal person as opposed to a bucking bronco.

Just take it a day at a time and go with the flow.

Your comments are brilliant and bang on reality.

As I have said in many posts:
ALL relationships can be fraught with emotional bullshit and hazards including money (take my ex-wife please)

You can be friendly with your lawyer, doctor AND SP. This does not mean you should take advantage of any of them.

I have loved and been totally involved with several great SPs. Quite frankly, when I am getting a 9+ GFE, "frequent flyer" rates, group discounts, Xmas gifts, cooking and brilliant intelligent conversation:

I dont care if she is acting!

But very few women deserve an Oscar, so I am convinced I am getting WYSIWYG 99% of the time from SPs.

I have made mistakes, been lied to (not the same as fantasy) and been taken advantage of (also, take my ex-wife, please, and about 20 old girlfriends).

But I have few regrets and I love to spoil the best of my favs. After >2 years, one amazing gal called me a friend . Big thrill to me, and if it were just "John" stroking she would have done it a loooong time ago.
Nevertheless, when I spend my last million, I do NOT expect to see her again. Its still "real".

 

[genintoronto]

And they say that women are the one who can't separate sex from love...

Personally I don't believe the initial rant: I've had SPs that I've taken out to dinner, others that have taken ME out to dinner, MP girls I've dated, and the occasional dancer hook-up. You either get along, or you don't, but just because you're a john doesn't preclude you from being date-worthy. After all, if a John is such a dirty, unworthy person, wouldn't the providers they frequent be equally as deplorable?

I think not, and I adore the women that work in this profession. They have been some of the most interesting women I've had the pleasure to meet, and our shared double lives provide an opportunity for complete honesty. After all, if you're both aware of each other's "deepest, darkest secret", it's pretty easy to share the rest of your back-stories.

Like it or not, this industry is a part of their lives and ours, and it can be beneficial to have someone you can talk to about this sort of thing without exposing your secret life to your other friends/family who may not understand.

What many of you fail to understand is that being treated like a client by your sex worker (SP, strippers, MPs) is not a comment on your potential as dating material or friend material. She treats you like a client because that's her job, that's what you are paying her for.

As I said before, but it bears repeating, you can't at once pay for a fantasy and bitch that you're only getting a fantasy and not the real thing.

As I've also said before, you wouldn't expect your therapist to treat you as anything less or more than a client/patient. She won't see you outside of your professional appointment. And she won't call you, like a friend would do, just to check up on you. If she does call you, it will be as a professional. Your therapist provides you with a very intimate, personal, caring service: she is there to listen to you, to help you understand and process your feelings and emotions, to give you support and guidance in dealing with whatever is going on in your life. In many ways, the service she provides you with resemble what a friend, family member, or partner would do for you. But she's not a friend, family member, or partner. And while she most likely genuily care about your well-being, in order to the the job you pay her for properly, she will refrain from getting emotionally involved in the relationship you have with her, and she will always treat you as nothing less, nothing more than a patient/client. And if she needs debriefing or support to deal with her own emotions and needs as they relate to her job, she will seek the assistance of another professional therapist, not you.

My job as an SP is to provide you with a fantasy, to cater to your sexual needs and desires. This is not a reciprocal relationship: it's all about you, what you want, what you need, how you want to fuck me, how you want me to cum, how you want me to dress, how you want me to make you feel. You are paying me to be a fantasy version of me, to not have emotions and feelings of my own outside of the limited ones that you want to inspire in me, you are paying me to not bother you with the mundanity of my life, you are paying me to be always smilling, always happy to fuck, always wanting to fuck more, you are paying me to not care about my own orgasms unless you want me to make you feel like the best lover on earth.

In order for me to do my job, and to do it well, I have to treat you as a paying client, not a friend, not a lover. And in order for me to keep my own sanity and to not be hurt and frustrated by the non-reciprocal, unidirectional, and sometimes very instrumental aspect of my relationships with my clients, I have to keep the boundaries very clear between my professional and personal life.

 

[winstar]

Anytime you are paying for sex, you are a John. Even if that means picking up a street walker, seeing an SP, or dating.

This is a big reason why I see dating as a demoralizing experience, because there's so much dishonesty in what it actually is, that is a man paying for sex, dressed up under the guise of intimacy and "love".

At least SP's are entirely upfront and honest about what they do. And the issue of worrying about whether you'll lose your girlfriend, or that she is cheating on you, then becomes a non-issue.

It's a difficult thing for me to accept right now, because I also had that fairytale of finding true love. I really don't think it exists anymore.

 

[genintoronto]

Just a thought. Have you destroyed the fantasy with your word above. I pay a woman for the fantasy. If she tells me that, "it's only a fantasy" then you have just given me second thoughts about paying you again. My fav's don't remind me its all not true. It may endanger a repeat. Just a thought.

Does reading the reviews here of other clients seeing the same SPs spoil the fantasy for you? How come the very existence of this review board doesn't spoil the fantasy for you?

I don't make a point of telling my clients, during the time they are paying to spend with me, that it's all just a fantasy. I'm a little smarter than that. I try to make the exchange of money as discreet as possible, because I know that many clients find that it "spoil the fantasy" to make it too obvious. I also usually avoid getting into the politics of sex work or getting into any serious, heavy, intellectual debates unless the client pushes me into that direction and gives me indications that this is how he wants to spend his time with me.

But I also assume that my clients are adults who can deal with the fact that Santa Claus and the Easter Bonny don't exist for real.

 

[alexmst]

Anytime you are paying for sex, you are a John. Even if that means picking up a street walker, seeing an SP, or dating.

This is a big reason why I see dating as a demoralizing experience, because there's so much dishonesty in what it actually is, that is a man paying for sex, dressed up under the guise of intimacy and "love".

At least SP's are entirely upfront and honest about what they do. And the issue of worrying about whether you'll lose your girlfriend, or that she is cheating on you, then becomes a non-issue.

It's a difficult thing for me to accept right now, because I also had that fairytale of finding true love. I really don't think it exists anymore.

True love can exist in life, but for a very small minority of the population. Since most of us won't find it, it is best to enjoy the relationships we can achieve.

Look at prehistoric times. Caveman likes cavewoman. He flexes his muscles. She looks and appears maybe a little interested. He goes on a hunt, bashes some beast with a club, and drags it back to her family's cave, throwing it at her feat triumphantly. She is impressed: he is a provider. They all eat. Consensus is "Grunt" is worth keeping, as he'll keep her and her relatives in steaks, and also the little Grunt juniors that come along. Family conference: they decide Grunt stays. Grunt has a mate and sex - Grunt is happy.

 

[winstar]

True love can exist in life, but for a very small minority of the population. Since most of us won't find it, it is best to enjoy the relationships we can achieve.

Look at prehistoric times. Caveman likes cavewoman. He flexes his muscles. She looks and appears maybe a little interested. He goes on a hunt, bashes some beast with a club, and drags it back to her family's cave, throwing it at her feat triumphantly. She is impressed: he is a provider. They all eat. Consensus is "Grunt" is worth keeping, as he'll keep her and her relatives in steaks, and also the little Grunt juniors that come along. Family conference: they decide Grunt stays. Grunt has a mate and sex - Grunt is happy.

True, but then Grunt 2 comes along and is better at hunting. Cavewoman sees Grunt 2, and though she does not need anything more that Grunt 1 can provide, sleeps with Grunt 2 behind Grunt 1's back. Grunt 1 may or may not find out. Then, Cavewoman asks for a divorce leaving Grunt 1 for Grunt 2, and if that weren't enough, takes half of everything Grunt 1 owns, all this after she boinked Grunt 2 brain's out.

Case in point:

http://www.wsls.com/sls/news/nation...cing_ex-ceo_says_43_million_not_enough/30922/

 

[saliksalik]

Does reading the reviews here of other clients seeing the same SPs spoil the fantasy for you? How come the very existence of this review board doesn't spoil the fantasy for you?

But I also assume that my clients are adults who can deal with the fact that Santa Claus and the Easter Bonny don't exist for real.

Here are some interesting excerpts on the subjects by an SP who wrote a book: How I Make It and Fake It as a Girl for Hire

"“I started thinking about love and started thinking about what sex really is,” she said. “I started thinking about what that was actually for, and I thought: it’s to communicate love, it’s to communicate affection, it’s to communicate lust, it’s to communicate trust ... And it occurred to me that the sex industry was this disturbing perversion of that ... There was no love, and there was no caring; there was no gentleness. There was nothing erotic about it in any way, and the communication was all lies ... Frankly, it broke my heart. And that’s when I started writing my book.”

"Though she said that sex work is part of the larger problem of commodity fetishism — that is, the reduction of human relations to that of producer and consumer — Lewis also said, “The difference between the ugliness of me not seeing the fry-guy [at McDonald’s] as a human being and a guy who gets jacked off by me not seeing me as a human being ... [is that] it enters such an intimate, sexual realm, which is, by definition, something you do to get close to another human being. I think sex work is a really efficient way of alienating human beings from each other.”

“Sarah made an excellent point that, while the sex industry is exploitative of women, it goes both ways. She said she was equally exploitative of the male customers, whom she eventually failed to view as humans.”

“She’s not the stereotypical, ditzy ... ‘hooker,’” Iyengar said. “At the same time she’s not like the protagonist in a lot of books I’ve read, where it’s the doctoral student working on her dissertation, and she happens to strip on the side. She does this for a living.”

http://cornellsun.com/node/22711

 

[y2kmark]

Well ...

Why do some people feel that being some sort of hero, saviour or 'buddy' to an SP or MPA will make them more than just a 'john'?? It doesn't. As for myself, I try to labour under no illusions no matter how friendly the ladies seem to be. I've been given cell numbers, phone numbers on the back of calling cards...etc. and I've thrown all of them away, usually right in the parking lot as I'm driving off. Once I made the mistake of calling a lady who gave me her cell # and I was shocked at how unfriendly she was. You see, I wasn't calling to make an appointment, just to ask a scheduling question. Never again after that!

If you ever find yourself trying to take things to another level in this hobby, stop and think. You're just a john, that's all you've ever been and all you ever will be. Sorry.

The "savior" part is certainly true of some guys, just try posting a neg. review if you don't believe it. That being said, however, a good many of the ladies (and gents as well) have "favorites, or at least "trusted regulars." You have to know the limits, though. Even when something is very well established, intrusions into "personal space" can get a strong negative reaction.

 

[Top Northerner]

You know you are no longer just a john when they accept your acts of kindness.

You know no such thing. There are SPs who will take anything offered and still will not have any feelings for the clients. Not said as judgmental, it just is.

 

[diverdown]

I'snt ANYONE going to ask where this place is so someone can go fix that john!!!!!

Sex, sex, friend sex.....all that anyones thinking about. Yet the damn toilet is running and wasting water!

As for the real topic... Interesting thoughts and many valid points from all. I think it entirely depends on the individuals involved.

I am from Genin's school of thought.

I have business acquaintences and relationships, close relationships and quite friendly. I often am out with them and entertain them as part of business. We have fun, but it is a business relationship. I don't think of them or call them when I am on my personal time and looking for someone to go to a movie with. None of them ask for or ever expect that either. (In some ways I feel sorry for the ladies because they offer the professional relationship and have to deal with the pressure to move to personal relationships.)

It's not that I don't value or care about these people, I just draw a professional line to what the relationship is or will ever be. I was taught/raised to believe that to be the correct behaviour.

So as it relates to SP's I hope I am thought of as a nice, friendly, honest and hygenic business acquaintance. You can call me John but I prefer Mr. John.

That's me. It certainly doesnt mean that it's correct. As stated by many posts previously, we are all individuals.

One thought though for those hoping to persue a more personal friendship with a lady. Unless her ad says '1st hour $250 with hopes of a lifetime of friendship and intimacy to follow', you should probably let the lady lead in this regard. Know that her individual interests in you include more.

I have to leave now....it's going to take a long time to knock on all the parlour doors and find the one with the damn toilet.

 

[boatbuilder]

"...Though she said that sex work is part of the larger problem of commodity fetishism — that is, the reduction of human relations to that of producer and consumer ..."

Commodity fetishism is a favorite sandbox of second year graduate students, but former sex worker Sarah Katherine Lewis is misapplying Marx's concept here. His point was to poke fun at the notion that value resides in physical objects rather than the human effort that goes into producing said objects. It is NOT "the reduction of human relations to that of producer and consumer".

Commodity fetishism is more like thinking that Genintoronto's Gucci clutch is worth $300 rather than her human effort in producing your orgasm(s).

 

[alexmst]

You know no such thing. There are SPs who will take anything offered and still will not have any feelings for the clients. Not said as judgmental, it just is.

True, although not all are out to take advantage.

I remember once in the mid-90's I was in a U.S. SC and was flirting with a dancer (20), looking for a date/extras. She said in conversation she had lost her purse and prepaid phone the other day by leaving it at a bar. I said "I'll buy you a new one, no prob" and she said she'd think about it, then danced her set then went backstage. Half an hour later she came back to my table and said she wouldn't feel right doing it, becasue she had a b/f and wasn't looking to date, however she (first month on the job) said she asked the other dancers in the locker room what she should do in this circumstance and the general opinion was "if he is going to offer to give you stuff, take all you can get" and then say you have a b/f and can't sleep with him after you have the stuff". She added that this kind of manipulation of men wasn't the way she was raised and she felt it was wrong. So I said "sit down and have a drink" and asked her about her family life, upbringing, etc and why she decided to work in the biz for half and hour, then I handed her the money to buy a new purse and smiled and said "You're a nice girl - your b/f has a winner with you - I wish you the best of luck together" and left.