Once a John, Always a .............

[C Dick]

Some of us seem a little bitter. At least half the providers that I know (mostly dancers) have some or all of their romantic relationships with men they meet at work. There are indeed some providers who put up a solid emotional wall, but some are just like people who work at any other job. Meaning that they like some of their customers, dislike others, attracted to some, etc. You can not assume that an SP will not like you, or want an outside relationship with you, maybe she will. It is not inappropriate to ask her, if you do it respectfully, and do not bug her, or stalk her, or make her feel uncomfortable, or whatever.

The big difference between SPs and other kinds of workers, is that with regular people, if a women fucks you, and is really attentive and loving, you can likely assume that she likes you. With an SP, you really can't tell, she is probably just doing her job. But it is not a 100% rule, there are plenty of exceptions.

 

[Don]

I always find this kind of posts somewhat amusing.

Do you also feel the need to remind yourself that you are just a client after seeing a therapist, going to a spa, being served a good meal at a restaurant, saying good-night to your babysitter, etc.?

Why yes you are a client, nothing more nothing less. That's why you paid to get the service that was provided to you. You'd think the exchange of money would make that clear, and that there would be no surprise or hurt feelings about the nature of the relationship.

Agreed! However I can see why some men might have a harder time with this because some men hobby to fill an emotional void. Thus they are vulnerable and prone to overreaction to acts of intimacy whether real or fiction. Hence why I think there are many SP's out there who prefer married men as they perceive them as less inclined to get emotionally involved (they are in it for some sex on the side and prefer to keep things on the down low)

 

[saliksalik]

All the world's a stage

See, I don't get why/how this is hurtful.

You are paying me to provide you with a service. I give you the best service I can, within the confine of our relationship. Which means that I don't bother my clients with the mundanity of my life, I put on a smile even if I'm not feeling it, I give my clients the most pleasant and sexiest version of me, and if need be, I'll pretend to have the best time of my life even if the client is a lousy lay. That's what I am paid to do. But no, you can't pay me to be your friend or partner.

You can't at once pay for a fantasy, and then complain that you're only getting a fantasy.

This discourse has reminded me as to why Harold Bloom argued that Shakespeare was the inventor of Human, and the following excerpts says it all about the Games that People Play:

William Shakespeare - All the world's a stage (from As You Like It 2/7)

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages. At first the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.
And then the whining school-boy, with his satchel
And shining morning face, creeping like snail
Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress' eyebrow. Then a soldier,
Full of strange oaths and bearded like the pard,
Jealous in honour, sudden and quick in quarrel,
Seeking the bubble reputation
Even in the cannon's mouth. And then the justice,
In fair round belly with good capon lined,
With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
Full of wise saws and modern instances;
And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slipper'd pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side,
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank; and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.

And despite all the disagreements that people may have with him, Malarek has so much truth about the Johns and the roles that Johns play. Cheers

 

[saliksalik]

Yup, it happens. Quite often but it really is not an easy or savory change.

I've established friendships with very select clients that I got along with and I got burned TERRIBLY by the end of the friendship. For some reason, certain guys think that once you become friends, sex is just a natural daily occurrence...and of course they don't have to pay. =p (I mean, I am having sex all day, everyday aren't I? I should be able to squeeze them into my day somewhere free of charge...*dripping with sarcasm*)

If they manage to get it through their heads that I am probably not going to want to entertain that bed-ridden fantasy, then it moves onto something more romantic. Dinner, candles, Barry White and some wine...hoping to lead into sex. (lol, the wool was pulled RIGHT OVER my eyes.)

If they manage to get past the wining and dining stage, they start to see what Noir is really about - the fact that I don't shave my arm pits on my off days, I like to have my hair up and I don't in fact clean my house in 7" stilettos. Sometimes they stay after that...sometimes they don't. I have met some "friends" who used to be clients, but realistically very few of them stayed once they realized that I wasn't going to confess my life story in one day, and that I don't fall for their MO of getting free punani (anymore).

When there is no money exchanged, no sexual activities taking place and a mutual respect between both parties - then you are friends. If you're screwing on the side with no money exchanged, you're a FB. If there are confirmed romantic feelings between the two parties then it's called dating. Just like normal people. ^_^

I find that it is very difficult to move between the two levels of a real friendship and a business engagement, given the fact that I (as an SP) has been with you (client) at your most intimate time. It's kind of hard for most hobbyists to sweep that under the rug and look at an SP as a normal person as opposed to a bucking bronco.

Just take it a day at a time and go with the flow. ^_^

7" stilettos are so scary ;-)
Cheers

 

[S.C. Joe]

SP personnas. These are strong, intelligent, dedicated women who do not do an easy job. .

True....I like tough "pretty" gals...not the ones who go boo hoo I broke my nail or are emotionally- hate to say weak-but how else can you say it...

Then you get the gals who like to control their guy..."after all if he really does love me he should do as I like"....yeah right lady, ha ha....I love my self respect too!

Its too bad more gals aren't like SP in terms of making out and enjoying life...some are who aren't SP's..but too many are like train to only "make love" and not to have fun. They make having sex way too big of a deal...I can see the first time yeah but after a few BF's some lighten up while others never do.

I can think of so many chicks who at first I was turn on by but then slowly or quickly I got turn off just by them being too girlie like...even while they still liked me...

Did you know saying "I love you" everyday to some gals is really a big deal to them....maybe some of us guys need to go to a human relation school and not john school, lol. But then I'm happy so why change...now only if I had more money to spend on SP's life would be perfect !!!

 

[a 1 player]

I believe that one can become friends with an Sp, but as Noir said, they have to like each other for the people they actually are, not for the fantasy they provide. Once the SP/client relationship is formed, it can be difficult to move to the 'personal' level. Difficult, but not impossible depending on the people involved.

 

[saliksalik]

Of course, since we're talking of human beings interacting with each other, there are going to be shades of grey.

But my point was that if you are paying someone to provide you with a fantasy, it shouldn't exactly come as a surprise that what you are getting is a fantasy, not the real thing.

I also think that the more intimate the service provided, the more likely the provider is going to draw hard boundaries between her/his professional and personal life. It is unlikely that your therapist or care-giver is going to be OK with hanging out with you outside of the professional service they are providing. And if they do decide to see you in a non-professional capacity, they will most likely stop being your therapist or care-giver. For most people in the caring industry (whether sex workers, nurses and other caregivers, therapists, etc.) we need those boundaries in order to remain emotionally and mentally sane.

Would it not be great that all SPs in Toronto don the Geisha gowns and wear Geisha make ups that hide all emotions, and all the Johns wear the "NOH" masks. The roles and plays then will be perfect.
Geisha also fulfill the fantasies and their clients do sometimes foolishly fall in love and suffer. That is the tragedy of this hobby that people some times wake up from their dream and fall hard like Humpty Dumpty never to be put together again. Cheers

 

[squash500]

Of course, since we're talking of human beings interacting with each other, there are going to be shades of grey.

But my point was that if you are paying someone to provide you with a fantasy, it shouldn't exactly come as a surprise that what you are getting is a fantasy, not the real thing.

I also think that the more intimate the service provided, the more likely the provider is going to draw hard boundaries between her/his professional and personal life. It is unlikely that your therapist or care-giver is going to be OK with hanging out with you outside of the professional service they are providing. And if they do decide to see you in a non-professional capacity, they will most likely stop being your therapist or care-giver. For most people in the caring industry (whether sex workers, nurses and other caregivers, therapists, etc.) we need those boundaries in order to remain emotionally and mentally sane.

Excellent post .

 

[ravencroft]

Personally I don't believe the initial rant: I've had SPs that I've taken out to dinner, others that have taken ME out to dinner, MP girls I've dated, and the occasional dancer hook-up. You either get along, or you don't, but just because you're a john doesn't preclude you from being date-worthy. After all, if a John is such a dirty, unworthy person, wouldn't the providers they frequent be equally as deplorable?

I think not, and I adore the women that work in this profession. They have been some of the most interesting women I've had the pleasure to meet, and our shared double lives provide an opportunity for complete honesty. After all, if you're both aware of each other's "deepest, darkest secret", it's pretty easy to share the rest of your back-stories.

Like it or not, this industry is a part of their lives and ours, and it can be beneficial to have someone you can talk to about this sort of thing without exposing your secret life to your other friends/family who may not understand.

That's my two cents on the topic, to each their own.

 

[S.C. Joe]

Well I never forget during the "date" its not a "real date" so I don't get let down by her not really loving me....I would like to think that sometimes we both really like each other but LOVE? Nope, I never felt like an SP loved me...but I guess with some guys it can happen.....well maybe once I was "hook"

I started young,...was good "friends" with one older lady and her "man" and another lady when I was in my 20's but then one day as my funds started to run low and I was getting "cheap" on her, it woke me up never to fall for an SP.....while driving to her room a few miles away she screams at me how I used to be so nice and generous but now I'm cheap with her and she starts looking in my ashtray, glove box...even stuck her hands in my front pockets looking for more cash...was my last "date" with her but looking back maybe my "best" date with her.....and we still did it, lol....but when she said "see you next week" and kissed me on my cheek and I shrug my shoulders, she laughed at me saying I be back, she killed the relationship and I never did see her again.

Thanks Michelle...

 

[alexmst]

I believe that one can become friends with an Sp, but as Noir said, they have to like each other for the people they actually are, not for the fantasy they provide. Once the SP/client relationship is formed, it can be difficult to move to the 'personal' level. Difficult, but not impossible depending on the people involved.

Agreed.

Yes, It does sometimes happen, but it is rare. Not a good idea going to an SP in search of love like one might when meeting a civilian date. Better to just go for sex, and if the SP thinks of you as maybe something more, she'll let you know.

 

[Cleftwynd]

Yup, it happens. Quite often but it really is not an easy or savory change.

I've established friendships with very select clients that I got along with and I got burned TERRIBLY by the end of the friendship. For some reason, certain guys think that once you become friends, sex is just a natural daily occurrence...and of course they don't have to pay. =p (I mean, I am having sex all day, everyday aren't I? I should be able to squeeze them into my day somewhere free of charge...*dripping with sarcasm*)

If they manage to get it through their heads that I am probably not going to want to entertain that bed-ridden fantasy, then it moves onto something more romantic. Dinner, candles, Barry White and some wine...hoping to lead into sex. (lol, the wool was pulled RIGHT OVER my eyes.)

If they manage to get past the wining and dining stage, they start to see what Noir is really about - the fact that I don't shave my arm pits on my off days, I like to have my hair up and I don't in fact clean my house in 7" stilettos. Sometimes they stay after that...sometimes they don't. I have met some "friends" who used to be clients, but realistically very few of them stayed once they realized that I wasn't going to confess my life story in one day, and that I don't fall for their MO of getting free punani (anymore).

When there is no money exchanged, no sexual activities taking place and a mutual respect between both parties - then you are friends. If you're screwing on the side with no money exchanged, you're a FB. If there are confirmed romantic feelings between the two parties then it's called dating. Just like normal people. ^_^

I find that it is very difficult to move between the two levels of a real friendship and a business engagement, given the fact that I (as an SP) has been with you (client) at your most intimate time. It's kind of hard for most hobbyists to sweep that under the rug and look at an SP as a normal person as opposed to a bucking bronco.

Just take it a day at a time and go with the flow. ^_^

If you are hiring an SP for services, that all it is, nothing could be more simple. However the intimate act that both share can confuse some I guess. I think the problem lies when a client thinks there is a lot more to the exchange than is seen by the SP. Davy.Biggie stated something about when the two meet without an exchange of money. That's where things change.

Noir, if the person really likes you for YOU, the days spent doing nada, looking like yourself, chatting and (snoring, lol) are the most cherished ones.

I can only imagine how confused that line must get at times for both the Sp's and the clients. Lust is often mistaken for much more. I myself have pondered this very issue, it's definitely one that has me lost ... as connections obviously do happen.

 

[TeflonJohn]

The term "hobbying" IMO is a joke! My hobby is working on my car and playing hockey. Having sex with prostitutes is no where near my hobby!

A john will always be and only be a john.
A whore will always be and only be a whore.

Without a whore there are no johns.
Without johns there are no whores.

Whore:
Pronunciation: \ˈhȯr, ˈhu̇r\
Function: noun
Date: before 12th century
1: a woman who engages in sexual acts for money : prostitute

I dont see anything wrong with being either of the two.

 

[Davy.Biggie]

#1 we are all people.
#2 regardless of what we do (be it to make money or how we spend our money) we are still people
#3 We are not what we do we are all individuals who deserve to be respected.

That being said,
the difference, I would say, is when emotions get involved. Be they from either side or both sides. When someone finds a person who they can be accepted by. When someone finds a person who has a positive impact on their lives. When you find a person who you admire. This is what draws one person to another initially. Some people are drawn to looks. Others to intelligence. Others to kindness and respect. Some to a multitude of things.
Now, my reasons for procuring the services of an SP are my very own. I did not want to be the man who wives cheat on their husbands with. I did not want to be the man who is with a woman for sex and sex alone. I did not want to be with someone for the wrong reasons.
But sometimes people do hard things for the wrong reasons. People who have no business being in one form of emploment find themselves there for all the wrong reasons. Sometimes their spirit is broken. Sometimes they are convinced that certain things are all they are capable or good at doing. What happens when a connection causes them to rethink their lives? TO believe in themselves? To desire something different for themselves?
What happens when someone is touched in a way that changes their lives? Gives them the courage to fight for their desires and attain their dreams?
What does one do when the new person emerges and desires you in a way you have not been desired previously? Is this a beneficial situation for both people? Is this a way for two flawed people to attain wholeness? To become stong well rounded people and have a positive influence in their lives?
Can this happen and more importantly is it something permanent or temporary?

 

[lavameltme]

See, I don't get why/how this is hurtful.

You are paying me to provide you with a service. I give you the best service I can, within the confine of our relationship. Which means that I don't bother my clients with the mundanity of my life, I put on a smile even if I'm not feeling it, I give my clients the most pleasant and sexiest version of me, and if need be, I'll pretend to have the best time of my life even if the client is a lousy lay. That's what I am paid to do. But no, you can't pay me to be your friend or partner.

You can't at once pay for a fantasy, and then complain that you're only getting a fantasy.

Just a thought. Have you destroyed the fantasy with your word above. I pay a woman for the fantasy. If she tells me that, "it's only a fantasy" then you have just given me second thoughts about paying you again. My fav's don't remind me its all not true. It may endanger a repeat. Just a thought.

 

[The Options Menu]

First of all, it's not that all Johns suck at (healthy) relationships, sex, love, not being misogynist pigs, and dealing with women. It's just that this group is somewhat overrepresented in the sex industry client pool because they have no (or far less) recourse. This leaves a large pool of Johns who have a level of 'relationship' sophistication akin to that of a 16 year old (in the 1950s, in Saudi Arabia). So you can't really blame providers at all levels for putting up firm walls. (But there is plenty of stuff you can blame them for )

Even looking at this thread you have a couple of hot and competent providers who made something of an informed choice to get into line of work after weighing the opportunity cost. All service work is tough work, and service work in the sex industry is the toughest of all. When you combine those providers with a client pool that is over represented by those who "have a level of 'relationship' sophistication akin to that of a 16 year old (in the 1950s, in Saudi Arabia)" I'd put some pretty big walls up as well.

A 'stalker puppy dog', who is an adult male who should know better, is only cute in so far as a person is 100% sure they are harmless. Given that the former pretty much disqualifies the latter it can provide a strong incentive to not let anybody 'weasel their way in'.

But we as clients should also be doing the same. The two most important things for both halves of of the John / Provider relationship are: PERSPECTIVE and RULES. I'm an SC only guy. I understand that my SC crawls exists in a bubble, and I damn well keep it in that bubble, and a make sure that bubble doesn't occupy an inordinate amount of space in my life. I date (pathologically), I have friends, a job, and I like to do lots of stuff. I just like a really big dose of beer, boobies, and maybe a helping hand about once a month. Even if I'm convinced of the sincerity of an offer to 'hang out' I keep my hobby 'in the bubble' and it has kept my life very simple.

If you want your life to get messy abandon any sense of perspective and rules and see what happens... This is not to disqualify any potential for 'friendship, but it is 'hard'. This is also not to say that things should be clinical and transactional, except for when dealing with and facilitating an amicable transaction. (You see that in the SC forum a lot.) Finally, everybody deserves a modicum of human dignity and compassion...

 

[The Options Menu]

Just a thought. Have you destroyed the fantasy with your word above. I pay a woman for the fantasy. If she tells me that, "it's only a fantasy" then you have just given me second thoughts about paying you again. My fav's don't remind me its all not true. It may endanger a repeat. Just a thought.

But it has the fine virtue of being honest... I've made the comment on here before that Providers here are engaged in good marketing, and I've been forced to clarify that it wasn't meant as a pejorative. I believe, when this came up before, Gen (or another SP) said that any incidental pleasure they derive is just that, incidental. I doubt she'd complain if a guy was OK looking, funny, and managed to giver her a solid 'O'. She'd probably be happy. But that's not her job. Her job is to provide a good service even if you're fugly, have a nails-on-chalk-board personality, and couldn't find the clitoris with a laptop and Wikipedia beside you. Like I said, incidental satisfaction is incidental.

If you want a regular demand for mutual satisfaction try a relationship with a woman that does more than 'lays back and thinks of the Queen'. If you want to be treated like some 'lame trick' by some managed girl, well you can do that as well. (Ahh, the poison of the modern SC scene.) If you want a paid for friend, who'll be around as long as you have the resources, go ahead... But if you want a pro who'll deliver as advertised and treat you like a king (by all accounts), you know where to look.

If I were to ever see an SP, she'd likely be from the TERB or well reviewed on the TERB, and she'd very likely be somebody like Gen or Noir. Hot, smart, skilled, and not treating people like they're idiots (unless they are).

 

[naughtylady]

two cents from Montreal

It seems to me that the situation we are talking about can be summed up as so:

...and my reality is your fantasy, while your reality is my fantasy.

Than said in the 5 plus years since I have been working as an SP, I can honestly say that I have become friends with some select clients... and it always changes the work side of the relationship. You can't have it both ways, the fantasy and the reality.

I suppose when I suggested to one client/friend that he go see a marriage counselor; that if he spent half the energy he spent hobbying on his marriage... I was bound to lose him as a client. I did gain a wonderful friend though. ...and while he was a very good regular client at one time, clients are relationships for the moment while friendships lasts much longer.

Ronnie,
Naughtylady

 

[lavameltme]

But it has the fine virtue of being honest... I've made the comment on here before that Providers here are engaged in good marketing, and I've been forced to clarify that it wasn't meant as a pejorative. I believe, when this came up before, Gen (or another SP) said that any incidental pleasure they derive is just that, incidental. I doubt she'd complain if a guy was OK looking, funny, and managed to giver her a solid 'O'. She'd probably be happy. But that's not her job. Her job is to provide a good service even if you're fugly, have a nails-on-chalk-board personality, and couldn't find the clitoris with a laptop and Wikipedia beside you. Like I said, incidental satisfaction is incidental.

If you want a regular demand for mutual satisfaction try a relationship with a woman that does more than 'lays back and thinks of the Queen'. If you want to be treated like some 'lame trick' by some managed girl, well you can do that as well. (Ahh, the poison of the modern SC scene.) If you want a paid for friend, who'll be around as long as you have the resources, go ahead... But if you want a pro who'll deliver as advertised and treat you like a king (by all accounts), you know where to look.

If I were to ever see an SP, she'd likely be from the TERB or well reviewed on the TERB, and she'd very likely be somebody like Gen or Noir. Hot, smart, skilled, and not treating people like they're idiots (unless they are).

Not sure what your point is. In SC's when they walk away it can be with a hug and kiss on the cheek or they can count the money and leave you as if you don't exist. I repeat with the first because I walk away with the bubble. With the second I walk away feeling like a piece of meat. Subtle but it is different. I respect honesty to a point. But I don't pay a SP for honesty. Maybe some do.

PS I am not in essence talking about any SP but only about what was said above

 

[The Options Menu]

Not sure what your point is. In SC's when they walk away it can be with a hug and kiss on the cheek or they can count the money and leave you as if you don't exist. I repeat with the first because I walk away with the bubble. With the second I walk away feeling like a piece of meat. Subtle but it is different. I respect honesty to a point. But I don't pay a SP for honesty. Maybe some do.

PS I am not in essence talking about any SP but only about what was said above

No, you're not paying for 'honesty' you're paying for a 'service'. In so far as the fantasy is based on a lie, that's all well and good. In so far as an SP on TERB says 'any incidental pleasure is incidental' that's also good. Or at least it's treating us like adults with half a brain...