My opinionated opinion of the garbage strike

[Keebler Elf]

However, when you are talking about public sector unions, then these "bitter/envious/jealous" people have a right to want to control costs as they/we are all footing the bill.

And that's fine. But 9 times out of 10 that's not the argument we're hearing. They're not saying bankable sick days are too expensive. 99% of the GTA couldn't even tell you what a bankable sick day costs. What people are bitching about is how undeserving unions are and how dare they get bankable sick days (especially when I don't!!!).

There's absolutely nothing wrong with saying bankable sick days are too expensive and the city can't afford it. In a nutshell, that's what the city IS saying. But that's not what the PUBLIC is beefing about. The public is pissed off about being inconvenienced.

 

[biog]

And that's fine. But 9 times out of 10 that's not the argument we're hearing. They're not saying bankable sick days are too expensive. 99% of the GTA couldn't even tell you what a bankable sick day costs. What people are bitching about is how undeserving unions are and how dare they get bankable sick days (especially when I don't!!!).

There's absolutely nothing wrong with saying bankable sick days are too expensive and the city can't afford it. In a nutshell, that's what the city IS saying. But that's not what the PUBLIC is beefing about. The public is pissed off about being inconvenienced.

Well, you know what they say, a person is smart, people are stupid.

 

[Keebler Elf]

If true, why would any intelligent and rational person limit himself to union labour? Also, why would any intelligent and rational person limit one's ability to contract out work?

Quite simply, because management does a cost-benefit analysis and determines that it is more beneficial to restrict their inherent management rights than it is to undergo a strike or lockout. Or some politician tells them (especially in the public sector) that they don't want a strike (because the public will get pissed off and won't re-elect them) and to settle.

Which is what you're getting now as the public pressure ratchets up on the politicians, the pressure mounts on the city to give up its proposal to do away with bankable sick days. All that public furor is actually undermining the very thing (bankable sick days) that so many people are upset about. If you truly loathe the idea of sick days, then support the city and let the union strike as long as they want (or are able) to. If the public backs the city, eventually the union will give in. But if the public just wants the strike to end immediately, the city will give in. That's what negotiating is all about.

Intelligent and rationale people limit their rights everyday. It's all a question of what you're getting in return (which might not be obvious to casual observers).

 

[JohnLarue]

/

It's called the race to the bottom. People see someone else getting something they don't get and instead of saying, "Golly gee, how can I get that?", they say "That person doesn't deserve it." (and what they're really thinking is "I deserve it just as much as they do, if not more, so if I don't get it they shouldn't either")

Call it envy, jealousy, bitterness, whatever. It's been around since the beginning of time.

Part of the reason unions tend to get more than individuals is because of bargaining power. In short, the average joe has none. But if the average joe gets together with a bunch of his pals, together they now have better bargaining power. But if you're an individual who can't figure out how to unite with other individuals, you're likely going to be pretty bitter when you see other people doing what you wish you could be doing.

The race to the bottom is what happens when bitter/envious/jealous/whatever people want to take away what other people have that they don't have. Instead of taking the positive approach of trying to get where the other people are, they take the negative approach and try to bring the other people down to their level. In short, these people are an employer's dream. Whoever can undercut their fellow employees fastest "wins" (and usually these people don't have the mental wherewithal to realize how Pyrrhic their "victory" really is).

Its not about envy, jealousy, bitterness
Its about recieving value for my tax dollars & in this case no ratonal person can honestly say we are getting value when trash collectors are banking 20+ sink days for an extra retirement bonus

How about this
The city caves & signs the contract.
Inorder to fund this expense, they impose a 25 to 50% tax levy on all unions dues collected in the Greater GTA (Public and Private sector)

Problem solved.
All the power to the trash collectors,
I could care less how many sick days they are milking from someone as long as that someone is not me, through my taxes

Do you want 30 days a year? Take 40, what do I care as long as the trash is collected?

 

[Rockslinger]

it is more beneficial to restrict their inherent management rights than it is to undergo a strike or lockout.

This is really the heart of the issue. The fact that management has no choice but to negotiate with only one party. A strike or lockout would not be a concern (dagger) if the City is allowed to ask for tenders (sealed bids) from other SP's.

 

[Rockslinger]

It's called the race to the bottom.

There is a race to the bottom but it is in service quality. The poorest performer in a union sets the standard for the rest of the unionized workers. (This is what happened at GM.)

 

[a 1 player]

There is a race to the bottom but it is in service quality. The poorest performer in a union sets the standard for the rest of the unionized workers. (This is what happened at GM.)

This is not true. The lowest performer is constantly beaten by management until his/her performance improves, or he/she is disciplined. Trust me I know, I had one of the worst employees in all of GM.

 

[Rockslinger]

There is an article in the weekend papers that say the City is legally allowed to hire replacement workers during a strike (unlike the commie provinces of Quebec and B.C.) but Mayor Miller won't do it because it is a well known fact that he is a commie.

 

[Rockslinger]

The lowest performer is constantly beaten by management until his/her performance improves, or he/she is disciplined. Trust me I know, I had one of the worst employees in all of GM.

Hey Player, I know you are a straight shooter but then how was Toyota able to kick GM's ass? Maybe the worst performer at Toyota is still better than the best performer at GM?

 

[a 1 player]

Hey Player, I know you are a straight shooter but then how was Toyota able to kick GM's ass? Maybe the worst performer at Toyota is still better than the best performer at GM?

Unfortunately that is not true either, there are however a bunch of factors that have contributed to G.M. decline, at least compared to Toyota (which is what I will focus on), and in point form as I am tired. I can elaborate later on if you are interested.

-GM had a low quality for years due to
*Not following Lean manufacturing principles (TPS)
*Union not allowing process improvements for fear of job losses
*Lines speeds not running at full capacity (union work standard rates)
*More people than needed to do some jobs
*Management being slow at addressing problems and implementing corrective actions
*Management not listening to the line workers when they had good ideas to improve quality
*Bashing suppliers for defects instead of working with them to correct the issues
*Paying wages that were well outside of the industry norm.
*Hiring through nepotism instead of the most qualified candidates

Recently, G.M. had a huge improvement in quality, but there came a whole new set of problems when G.M. implemented it's own version of the Toyota Production System (TPS)

*Perceived quality was still low due to the years of substandard quality
*Line management being so overrun with paperwork there was rarely any time to supervise
*Labor fights against standardized work (most effective method) for fear of repetitive injuries
*Union complaints about increased line speeds
*Still unrealistic wages and benefits
*Disciplines not holding
*Training can be inadequate due to not enough people extra to train and check down line for errors.
*Management being downright abrasive to the employees and crushing all motivation
*Union and workers being downright abusive to management and causing them to act like tyrants
*Young new employees who feel that they have a right to the job, and pissing off the senior good workers who helped build the company
*Drug and alcohol abuse
*Ineffective gas guzzling product lines

That is just a few off the top of my head.

 

[Don]

Don't you get it - everyone should have 18 sick days! The unions are in the lead to raise the standards of the working man!

Unfortunately what this will do is hurt the country overall since this is a global world and countries that lose such productivity will get their ass handed to them by countries like China and India and the rest of Asia where productivity is much higher

 

[LateComer]

I do not know whether this thread will fly but here goes


I question all I read, but if these statistics I read are true then

- less than 20 % of the population owns over 80 % of the wealth and it is getting worse as the rich are now buying everything up at fire sale prices

- 1% of households consume 25% of household goods

It is Unions that are slowing down, but not stopping, the rich from getting richer and the poor from getting poorer

This laissez-faire/allow capitalism freedom to rule and break up all the unions crap does not work. Look at countries without them and our own before unions. Who would like to work in a coal mine during the twenties? or been a laborer building a national railway (that still makes no financial sense and never has) or have died of malaria while digging out the Rideau canal while living in abject poverty so the British money changers could keep out the American money changers ?

You complain about the 18 sick days the garbage men get ???

Don't you get it - everyone should have 18 sick days! The unions are in the lead to raise the standards of the working man!

Where should this money come from???? Clearly from the investment portfolios of the money changers who own 80 percent of the wealth and have caused this recession with their greed and impoverish third world countries by supporting dictators that will allow exploitation of their people so they can get filthy rich. The oil monopolies are the clearest example of this outrages and inhumane behavior


How come everyone is so brainwashed and blinded to this obvious truth?

So I have vented, could it be I am wrong?

If I am how so?

Educate me

To be in the top 20% of income earners in Canada one would only have to make $50,000/year (2004 dollars). See StatsCan study (Table 2):

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/75-001-x/2007109/article/10350-eng.pdf

A Toronto garbage collector makes more than that. Therefore, a Toronto garbage collector is one of the privileged rich!

 

[Moraff]

Unfortunately what this will do is hurt the country overall since this is a global world and countries that lose such productivity will get their ass handed to them by countries like China and India and the rest of Asia where productivity is much higher

Properly implemented, having some paid sick days will increase productivity not decrease it.

 

[blackrock13]

You're absolutely right we can't with buck a day employe and we shouldn't try. Where we can compete is in making something that the best whatever, or something unique. People will buy it. That's another thread worth starting.

The average worker looses approximately 10 days a year to sickness and injury. Ask nicely and I'll give you the link. That's not a bad number but it just gives you an idea of how out of line 18+ days is, let alone banking it.

An employer get an idea who's taken advantage of any sick as they tend to exactly that number every year and it's always remembered for later talks about whatever.

 

[blackrock13]

To be in the top 20% of income earners in Canada one would only have to make $50,000/year (2004 dollars). See StatsCan study (Table 2):

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/75-001-x/2007109/article/10350-eng.pdf

A Toronto garbage collector makes more than that. Therefore, a Toronto garbage collector is one of the privileged rich!

If that's true, so much for being the downtrodden, underpaid, misunderstood workie!! HaHaHa!!

 

[Rockslinger]

If that's true, so much for being the downtrodden, underpaid, misunderstood workie!! HaHaHa!!

That is why unionists don't vote for the NDP. Remember when Buzz Hargrove turned Liberal?

 

[blackrock13]

I love when it's US against THEM in the brothers' discussion against free market capitalism. Running the chance of repeating myself, since there are 3 similar threads on this topic, but the larger unions in the country have some of largest stock portfolios investing in so many of those gawd damn capitalist companies who make money on the backs of their employees

 

[Rockslinger]

At the extreme end, both the left and the right are cut from the same cloth and I bash both of them equally. An investment banker will throw his mother under a bus for an extra dollar. A die hard unionist will push his mother over a high cliff for an extra dollar. Fortunately, most of us are in the rational middle.

 

[JohnLarue]

They're not saying bankable sick days are too expensive. 99% of the GTA couldn't even tell you what a bankable sick day costs.

The public is pissed off about being inconvenienced.

The cost of a banked sick day is the present value of the replacement workers day wage at the time when the banked sick day is used.

To actually calculate the amount you need estimates of
1. How long the day will be banked
2. how much collectors wages will rise over that period
3. a discount rate
4. The current collectors day wage
5. An estimate of how many collectors will max out their bankable sick days

1-3 can be tricky to estimate, 4 is their current pay & we will assume # 5 will be pretty close to 100%

What is the cost?
IT IS A LOT, it is an excessive benefit & that is all I need to know

This is not about inconvenience

It is about
a) Having to live in filth
b) The affect on tourism & the jobs lost in that sector
c) The possible health issues that could arise
d) Cancellation of services for children
e) The city's financial situation & total disregard for the need to control expenditures
e) But most importantly it is about being blackmailed & the effect it will have on my property taxes or rent.

That jealously, envy crapola is pure union hall rhetoric.

Settle with the union , but pay for the excess sick days out of a levy on all union dues & I don't care how many sick days they bank.
Just so long as I am not expected to pay for them

 

[Yoga Face]

When people complain about the rich, I always like to talk about my boss "The Big Guy" and his brother, my very best friend, "Crazy Bull". They were born to a family of modest means (read dirt poor) in Parkdale. Using their intelligence and hockey skills, they each won hockey scholarships to an American Ivy League college. They worked 24/7 to build their business from scratch and, yes, they are rich and they earned every cent of it. In the process, they made a lot of other people rich as well.

Great story and I agree. Did they make their bread doing something socially useless like money changers?

We build great monumental towers to the money changers so they can sit in them and exchange money through derivatives, going short on margin, foreign exchange etc How does this do anything but cause recessions? How does gambling on the flow of tomorrows market put moola in the hands of entrepreneurs so they can start a business and employ Rockslingers?

They just pass the loot around and everyone grabs some when it is their turn

The rich getting richer because, and only because, they can sit around on their yacht and watch their money make more money until they own everything ?

I do not pretend to understand economics but common sense screams that this is wrong