Mayor Miller

[lawyerman]

Is the strike over? Yes it is. Thanks goodness.

Now these guys can get back to work and make our streets clean once again.

I really hope that everyone learned a lesson from this.

It should have not taken this long to resolve. Period.

I just want my taxpayer dollars to go to what I think is worthwhile. I have met the Mayor a few times and he seems like a very personable guy. I just feel that my tax dollars were almost not utilized at all during the strike. I ju want my garbage picked up. That's what I paid for and that's what I want. Finally.

 

[buckwheat1]

It may take a day or two as there picking up everything

 

[fuji]

So now CUPE is enraged, right from the get-go.

The way to manage that is to "set expectations" early. Make it clear months before the potential strike that this is what will happen. Tell the public. Tell CUPE. Get the prospective contractors lined up BEFORE the strike starts, have them waiting in the wings. Tell everybody you are going to do this. Tell them when you do it.

These situations tend to become explosive only when they are also surprising. Part of being a strong negotiator or strong leader is telling people what you are going to do well in advance, and then absolutely doing it.

As much as the unions wouldn't like it, that sort of thing would earn their respect.

One reason why Miller was weak throughout the negotiations is he failed to communicate what he was going to do, and failed to do what he did say he would do. That earns contempt and is one reason why the union was so hell bent on a strike--they had no respect for Miller.

Huge pickets form at each dump site, and no-one is getting in.

What do you do?

Huge pickets are fine. No-one getting in is illegal and would be addressed with a court injunction. If CUPE members want to violate a court order they can be jailed, we do have police capable of enforcing the law.

However I think if the mayor had gone into negotiations making it clear that this is what would happen then there is actually a much better chance of negotiating a successful deal BEFORE the strike.

I don't think that the cops in this city will do anything.

They won't do anything up front because it's fundamentally a civil issue. The cops will only take the initiative to enforce the criminal law, they won't take the initiative to uphold civil law without a court order.

Once you have a court order, though, the cops will enforce it.

Do you turn the water canons on them? (Again, is that what you want?)

I don't think it will go that far. The CUPE protestors will press their rights as far as they can LEGALLY. I do not expect CUPE to take illegal action--they are fundamentally law abiding citizens, in my view, and simply would not take it so far as blatantly criminal action.

But if necessary, yes, uphold the rule of law. If that means water canons, fine. If that means jailing people, fine. If that means charging union organizers with inciting a riot, fine. I find it unlikely any of that would happen because I think CUPE members are law abiding people who would respect a court order.

I think they would whine and gripe and hold press conferences and make extremist statements and so forth, but I think they would fundmaentally respect the law.

When the cops don't move in, then what - call the army?

Far fetched. If the police in Toronto rebel against the authority in the city then yes call the army. However now we are talking about hypotheticals along the lines of, "what if a zombie army attacked the city?"

As much as I would love to say use Contractors and replacement workers, I don't see it happening ever.

You know that this is what happened in Windsor right? And no army was called in, and no police even had to enforce anything. The public unions in windsor complied with the rule of law, as you would expect, and the contractors hauled the garbage away each and every night.

This is not some fanciful thing that is never done, this was done in Windsor.

Contract out the pickup and disposal of garbage before the next contract expires.

Absolutely a good idea, yes. I agree with this too.

 

[Sammy the Bull]

We don't have to point to conspiracy theories since the ending is no surprise for the left-aligned and union-supported mayor.

(BTW, not Lee Harvey Oswald, although he may have been involved, if not as an FBI informant or past intelligence operative that was framed. Some UFOs are truly unexplained as anything terrestrial. We are not alone in this universe and there are probably life forms far more advanced than ours that are capable of interstellar space or time travel.)

*activates memory messer-upper*

Thats nothing but meteors passing through swamp gas, you hear!!

 

[wantoplay]

The way to manage that is to "set expectations" early. Make it clear months before the potential strike that this is what will happen. Tell the public. Tell CUPE. Get the prospective contractors lined up BEFORE the strike starts, have them waiting in the wings. Tell everybody you are going to do this. Tell them when you do it.

These situations tend to become explosive only when they are also surprising. Part of being a strong negotiator or strong leader is telling people what you are going to do well in advance, and then absolutely doing it.

As much as the unions wouldn't like it, that sort of thing would earn their respect.

One reason why Miller was weak throughout the negotiations is he failed to communicate what he was going to do, and failed to do what he did say he would do. That earns contempt and is one reason why the union was so hell bent on a strike--they had no respect for Miller.




Huge pickets are fine. No-one getting in is illegal and would be addressed with a court injunction. If CUPE members want to violate a court order they can be jailed, we do have police capable of enforcing the law.

However I think if the mayor had gone into negotiations making it clear that this is what would happen then there is actually a much better chance of negotiating a successful deal BEFORE the strike.



They won't do anything up front because it's fundamentally a civil issue. The cops will only take the initiative to enforce the criminal law, they won't take the initiative to uphold civil law without a court order.

Once you have a court order, though, the cops will enforce it.



I don't think it will go that far. The CUPE protestors will press their rights as far as they can LEGALLY. I do not expect CUPE to take illegal action--they are fundamentally law abiding citizens, in my view, and simply would not take it so far as blatantly criminal action.

But if necessary, yes, uphold the rule of law. If that means water canons, fine. If that means jailing people, fine. If that means charging union organizers with inciting a riot, fine. I find it unlikely any of that would happen because I think CUPE members are law abiding people who would respect a court order.

I think they would whine and gripe and hold press conferences and make extremist statements and so forth, but I think they would fundmaentally respect the law.



Far fetched. If the police in Toronto rebel against the authority in the city then yes call the army. However now we are talking about hypotheticals along the lines of, "what if a zombie army attacked the city?"



You know that this is what happened in Windsor right? And no army was called in, and no police even had to enforce anything. The public unions in windsor complied with the rule of law, as you would expect, and the contractors hauled the garbage away each and every night.

This is not some fanciful thing that is never done, this was done in Windsor.



Absolutely a good idea, yes. I agree with this too.

And how expensive would contracting out be?? You have all those pay outs plus the EI/Welfare costs handed off to the province. Really really expensive if you ask me.

 

[buckwheat1]

good benefits NOT premuim, a good employeer provides good benefits.

Lets remember welfare payments were handed down to cities during the Harris government, so Toronto would we on the hook.

 

[wantoplay]

How do you rationalize avoiding EI/Welfare (subsistence benefits) with paying premium wages/benefits to unions?

Just wondering...

The Unions are not being paid, the PEOPLE are. So, since TOronto will be paying anyway, what do you think of them on welfare?? Remember, Toronto PAYS that.

 

[wantoplay]

good benefits NOT premuim, a good employeer provides good benefits.

Lets remember welfare payments were handed down to cities during the Harris government, so Toronto would we on the hook.

Thank you.

 

[opieshuffle]

From Dictionary.com

KNOWONE = either side, the union memebrs except for the bargining commitee
and the bargining commitee for the city see the deal first. Knowone except them is to see the deal until the ratification vote is taken. This is why some city counsel members were screaming for it (to see it) once a deal had been struck, NO they had to wait.

KNOWONE: no results found.

Did you mean "no-one" , "no one", "noone"?
"no person; not anyone; nobody:"


Sorry...in a smart-ass mode. Back to the debate.
OP

 

[Mrbig1949]

It really seems that you guys have no familiarity with labour negotiations or the history of them. The use of scabs is outside the accepted frame. Picketing is inside the frame. All sides truly involved Miller, his team etc understand this How do violent strikes look on the nightly news for tourism or investment. The use of scabs is the nuclear weapons exchange of strikes. The Labour movement in general reacts with violence and mass picketing. I spent my youth on picket lines at Texpack in Brantford, a big one in Centralia forget the Co. Artistic Woodworking in North York where the unions bussed in activists from all over.The cops could not cope with it, people were hurt, somebody could easily have been killed.People lay down on the road in front of scab busses with plywood windows covered with barb wire, it is like a scene out of a Korean strike or the West Bank. As soon as someone would get seriously hurt Miller would be blamed for the escalation. Replacement workers bring on nightmare scenarios and management knows it.

The bitterness of these kinds of strikes on both sides last for years. I have personally put up the wanted posters on the telephone polls in the home neighbourhoods of scabs.

 

[fuji]

And how expensive would contracting out be?? You have all those pay outs plus the EI/Welfare costs handed off to the province. Really really expensive if you ask me.

Etobicoke contracts out its garbage for less than it costs Toronto to have its public union pick it up, so not that expensive really.

A short-term contract might be more, but that has to be balanced against the decades of higher costs the city will now pay as a result of the poor deal it got--in the long run contracting out temporarily during the strike is WELL worth it.

As I mentioned it's also less likely that there will be a strike in the first place if the union knows that the city will prepare itself adequately. It makes the strike much more expensive for the union and therefore changes which deals look attractive to the union during negotiations.

 

[fuji]

The use of scabs is outside the accepted frame.

Says who? Unions? LOL!

Picketing is inside the frame.

Absolutely. However obstructing access to a site while picketing is illegal, and most definately outside the frame.

How do violent strikes look on the nightly news for tourism or investment.

I doubt it matters much. CUPE made a point of going around to news agencies and advertising how much garbage there was in Toronto and we seem to have survived that.

The use of scabs is the nuclear weapons exchange of strikes. The Labour movement in general reacts with violence and mass picketing.

Funny, then, that there was no violence or mass picketing in Windsor, where this was just done? You are so full of shit.

Trust me, if in response to a fully legal step by the city the union becomes violent sympathy for the union will drop to nothing and the police will act switfly to put the offenders in jail.

That's just unlikely to happen though. As we saw in Windsor that sort of violence just does NOT happen when the city contracts out the work.

 

[wantoplay]

Etobicoke contracts out its garbage for less than it costs Toronto to have its public union pick it up, so not that expensive really.

A short-term contract might be more, but that has to be balanced against the decades of higher costs the city will now pay as a result of the poor deal it got--in the long run contracting out temporarily during the strike is WELL worth it.

As I mentioned it's also less likely that there will be a strike in the first place if the union knows that the city will prepare itself adequately. It makes the strike much more expensive for the union and therefore changes which deals look attractive to the union during negotiations.

Ok, so the smart move would be to tender the contracts before the contract expires??

 

[Mrbig1949]

The history of strikes where scabs are used is a history of violent confrontation, period I don't care what you say Fuji you have demonstrated repeatedly that you simply don't know what you are talking about. I would reckon that not one member of the management team every used the word replacement worker in one conversation on even one day in the preparation for this strike. That is because they, unlike you, are fully aware of the ramifications of such a move the legacy of which would last for decades after the union had still won the strike.

If you actually had a clue about labour relations and all the protocals and precidents involved you would not make so many foolish statements about what is possible or what was ever possible. It is not Miller, Lastman would have known enough that a mature political figure does not associate themselves with scabs.

 

[Primetime21]

One question Mrbig, why was Windsor able to get away with having their temporary dump sites picked up each day so there wasn't any work for the city workers to do but start their regular work once the strike ended? Windsor didn't allow the strikers to hold the citizens up before dumping their trash off. Lets face facts here, Miller and the union orchestrated this whole thing, they knew he wasn't going to get any injunctions, and for that they took the vast amount of the scorn from the citizens. If Toronto had a real mayor they would have got injunctions right from the start to stop the unions from illegally stopping people for so long and the city would have had the dump sites cleared on a consistent basis. But then that would have weakened the unions bargaining power, and Miller wouldn't have any of that. In the end i don't really care, because i have considerably lowered the amount of money i spend in that city, and only visit it when absolutely necessary. The city can continue to go downhill, especially with Miller in charge.

 

[Mrbig1949]

Conspiracy Theory

One question Mrbig, why was Windsor able to get away with having their temporary dump sites picked up each day so there wasn't any work for the city workers to do but start their regular work once the strike ended? Windsor didn't allow the strikers to hold the citizens up before dumping their trash off. Lets face facts here, Miller and the union orchestrated this whole thing, they knew he wasn't going to get any injunctions, and for that they took the vast amount of the scorn from the citizens. If Toronto had a real mayor they would have got injunctions right from the start to stop the unions from illegally stopping people for so long and the city would have had the dump sites cleared on a consistent basis. But then that would have weakened the unions bargaining power, and Miller wouldn't have any of that. In the end i don't really care, because i have considerably lowered the amount of money i spend in that city, and only visit it when absolutely necessary. The city can continue to go downhill, especially with Miller in charge.

Roswell space ships, UFO' Freemasonery kind of stuff. Windsor probably based on a CUPE decision not to picket, as simple as that. It is not illegal to stop people you dufus. It happens to be picket line protocol in every strike. The union can have 15 minutes with each car to explain its position. The cops are standing there to watch.

The picketers are not to be on company property either but the police will simply declare an area ok if the alternative would impede traffic.

It might help if some of you people knew something or did some research before you shoot off your mouths. Open mouth insert foot.

 

[Mia.Colpa]

True but he could have paid out the banked sick day liability instead of grandfathering AND paying a generous package over 3 years in light of the recession and budgetary constraints of this taxed-to-death city.

There are so many innacurate statements made in this thread and should be clarified. Let's start with this one:

Once and for all, you can't force a buyout of already banked sick days, it's like wages earned and included in the collective agreement that expired December 31, 2008. The City can propose a buyout and if the union agrees, then that's ok and should be written into the new collective agreement, if not you can't force a buyout, period. It's illegal and the city would have a huge lawsuit and will lose, it's black and white. The councillors knew this in advance and tried to make Miller look bad in the press, that's why Miller was furious at the so called Responsible Government Group, for lieing.

However, what Miller could have negotiated into the new agreement was no more banked sick days from January 1, 2009 onwards for all employees, new or existing. This is where Miller was weak but not knowing the financial impact of this I really can't comment on how much the city would have saved if this was the case. I know for a fact many current employees who are within 5 years or so of retirement will choose to stop banking sick days and go on the new sick plan, they already have reached their maximum banked sick days. I'm sure the actuaries have crunched the numbers and it was determined they can handle this deal.

 

[Mia.Colpa]

Some more food for thought:

1. It is legal for picketers to stop each person trying to cross the picket line and to explain their position. I don't know the maximum length of time legally, but it's a minimum of 5 min to a max of 15 min, regardless stopping each person can really add delays to others in line. There was police at each picket location and nothing was done illegal or else the police would step in.

2. There was a camera man at each picket location taking videos of picketers to gain evidence of illegal picketing so the city could use this as proof and get an injunction. In all the days of the strike there was very little, if any, of substance to get an injunction. The last days the city said they are going to see if they can get an injunction but the video evidence was extremely weak.

3. At each location the city had a security staff to monitor situations and ensure the managers and scabs were protected when crossing the picket line. Security was encouraged to write reports as evidence if picketers did anything illegal. There was nothing of substance, very weak reports.

4. I know there were some charges laid against management for physically shoving and hurting female picketers when crossing the picket line. He used excessive force and was witnessed by the police. Physical assault charges will go in front of the courts.

5. There is no law that says scabs can't be used, but it sure is ugly with the union members. As we speak the few that crossed, I believe less than 600, are finding it quite difficult to work with colleagues, they knew this in advance. In fact, there is a lot of tension between management and the workers at the moment, let's hope it dissipates as they are working to serve the public.

6. Unless I read the collective agreement for Windsor I can't simply say whatever Windsor did, we can do. Also, I don't know enough about how Windsor used private contractors to clear up garbage without union members rebelling, but I will find out. I have to laugh when I read Windsor can do it, then we can, it's not that simple.

As I mentioned before I was involved in a few strikes early in my career as a manager filling in during the strike and was called a scab. The company had over 30,000 employees on strike and we, management, tried to keep services moving for our customers. It wasn't pretty, I was stopped at every picket line trying to drive through and stalled for 15 min each time, I was spat at, strikers removed my gas cap and played a game of throwing lit matches from about 10 feet into the gas cap opening, my family was threatened, and had a swarming by about 50 picketers with threats, there was no police. Some of my colleagues were driven off the road and their cars were capsized, strikers approaced management with attack dogs and threatened to let them lose if they continued to do scab work, and on and on and on...... So I do not have a positive view of unions, in fact I deplore them when they resort to these kind of tactics and threats, however I do know their rights, I do understand their role in our society, and I have to give them respect. When they resort to dirty tactics, I despise them.

 

[Mervyn]

Some more food for thought:

1. It is legal for picketers to stop each person trying to cross the picket line and to explain their position. I don't know the maximum length of time legally, but it's a minimum of 5 min to a max of 15 min, regardless stopping each person can really add delays to others in line. There was police at each picket location and nothing was done illegal or else the police would step in.

.

Could you please quote what law actually states this ? ?

 

[fuji]

The history of strikes where scabs are used is a history of violent confrontation, period

Wrong. There was no violence in Windsor.

Q.E.D.