Mayor Miller
- Thread starter buckwheat1
- Start date
maybe .75 cents. John Tory hasn't even won an election in his life tried at least 3 times he's now out. Why should employees be screwed? Miller/Counsell had no choice but to do what they did, if they were out longer do you think the city would of got a better deal?
buckwheat1 said:
Absolutely.
Look at Windsor. They had the same issue, only the opposite result.
The union was imploding slowly but surely. Over a thousand workers had broke ranks. Bills are due and the bank doesn't care what your problem is.
If I was Miller and the union said to me, "We're walking away from negotiations as of midnight Sunday", I would have said, "Don't let the door hit you on the way out"
Lastly, they should have hired Contractors to keep the temporary dumps cleaned on a daily basis, and allowed the public full access to the transfer stations.
Instead Miller the socialist signed an agreement that he would neither permit the picket line to be crossed and 15 minute waits between cars were legal. (That's fucking insane right there.)
Hey, don't complain. He is Harvard-educated. Must be very smart. George Bush and Jeff Skilling (former Enron CEO) both went there. They have one thing in common -- deliver stinky results.
CP
CP
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Windsor in no way produces the same amout of garbage as Toronto. The strike in Windsor was over different issues not like Toronto's
buckwheat1 said:
The same tactic would have worked though: Having the garbage hauled away every day by contractors significantly weakens the union's bargaining position. Miller was plain stupid not to do that.
The union was not afraid to play hard ball and put up delays at dump sites and block welfare offices, choose summer as a time to strike--for the city not to play hardball in return is just begging to be taken advantage of.
The moment the union started up with the hardball tactics there should have been replacement workers on the job.
Period.
fuji said:
Exactly.
Miller never had any intention in a million years to either hire replacement workers or to clean up the temporary dumps in order to maintain sanitation in the City. All of which were concessions to his base - the unions.
It's a tribute to the people of the City of Toronto that the place stayed as clean as it did.
fuji said:
There is nothing hard ball about this, this is what picketers do in any strike, they picket facilities.
I find many of your views too idealistic. I've been involved in 3 strikes in my previous life as a manager filling in during the strike. I can assure you it is not as simple as you make things sound, ie. just get contractors during the strike and the union will buckle. I don't share that view.
It's easy to second guess someone, but unless you're in that room and know the stakes, you really don't know what's involved in making decisions in tense and trying situations.
It's called capitalism. If the guy who can sell it for $0.50 more power to him. No one is forcing the employee to work there, it's their choice. It is also in the best interest of most employers to offer a fair wage, good working conditions and benefits so as to attract loyal and dedicated staff.buckwheat1 said:
Mrbig1949 said:
Mia.Colpa said:
Hmmm, struck a chord here did I? My suggestion was old-style politics at its best. Why is it so unlikely that Miller and his advisors could not have come up with it? Funny how two of the biggest "union" supporters in this thread could not have come up with anything of more substance!
Here's what Miller had to say early on about "sick days":
http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/lo...e_permits_090721/20090721/?hub=TorontoNewHome
And the outcome?
http://iphone.cbc.ca/news/story/2009/07/30/toronto-strike.html#
Uhh, Mr. Mayor, you don't have to "buy-out" benefits from "future employees"!
David Miller's take on the settlement:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ikes-end-pending-ratification/article1232177/
And what was CUPE's response?
http://cupe.ca/strikes/toronto-strike-settled
No wonder the Mayor wanted to keep terms of the tentative deal confidential as long as possible!
Bottom line, Miller SOLD OUT the residents of Toronto to his Union sycophants!
PLEASE, come November 2010, remember:
1) The unnecessary and unwarranted raise City Council voted themselves in 2009, prior to claiming poor!
2) The thousands of non-unionized employees that City Council gave a 0% increase to in 2009 AND that were automatically shifted to a short-term disability plan (with no option to "bank" sick days)!
3) This unnessary strike that City Council caused, only to cave to the Union just before they succeeded in their goals!
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY...
4) This Mayor and all of his Minions who supported this settlement.
VOTE THEM OUT OF OFFICE NEXT NOVEMBER!!!!!!!!!!!
http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/lo...e_permits_090721/20090721/?hub=TorontoNewHome
"We're not proposing taking away something from people, we're proposing buying them out. We're proposing replacing it with a sick-leave plan that is modern, that is the way most modern governments and corporations work in the 21st century," Miller said.
And the outcome?
http://iphone.cbc.ca/news/story/2009/07/30/toronto-strike.html#
On the controversial issue of banked sick-leave, Miller said the city negotiated an end to any future employees being able to save up unused sick days, but current employees will have the option of keeping the time they've accrued or taking a payout.
Uhh, Mr. Mayor, you don't have to "buy-out" benefits from "future employees"!
David Miller's take on the settlement:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ikes-end-pending-ratification/article1232177/
Mayor David Miller said the terms of the tentative deal -- which will remain confidential until workers vote on the deal Wednesday -- meet the goals he and the city laid out at the start of talks.
And what was CUPE's response?
http://cupe.ca/strikes/toronto-strike-settled
“The members of both locals showed tremendous courage and resolve in resisting more than 100 pages of concessions and a demand for wage freezes. I salute the members, their leaders and our staff for all their hard work in achieving these settlements,” Paul Moist said.
No wonder the Mayor wanted to keep terms of the tentative deal confidential as long as possible!
Bottom line, Miller SOLD OUT the residents of Toronto to his Union sycophants!
PLEASE, come November 2010, remember:
1) The unnecessary and unwarranted raise City Council voted themselves in 2009, prior to claiming poor!
2) The thousands of non-unionized employees that City Council gave a 0% increase to in 2009 AND that were automatically shifted to a short-term disability plan (with no option to "bank" sick days)!
3) This unnessary strike that City Council caused, only to cave to the Union just before they succeeded in their goals!
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY...
4) This Mayor and all of his Minions who supported this settlement.
VOTE THEM OUT OF OFFICE NEXT NOVEMBER!!!!!!!!!!!
Mia.Colpa said:
Then there should be nothing wrong with hiring replacement workers either, that is what employers do in strikes, they hire replacement workers.
I have been involved in enough deals to know that your best alternative to a negotiated agreement SIGNIFICANTLY impacts your bargaining position. If the city hires replacement workers then its best alternative is that it can wait until hell freezes over and the union's best alternative is home foreclosure. If it doesn't then for both sides the alternative is binding arbitration--which favours the union, so the union will hold a strong line in that case.
The union wouldn't instantly buckle but it woudld certainly change the relative strengths of the bargaining positions and if push came to shove the city really could outlast any strike in that case.
It would boil down to who the public thought was being more reasonable, and with 70-80% support for rejecting the union's deal the city could have kept it up a LOT longer and held out for better.
Mrbig1949 said:
The unions went beyond picketing and actually obstructed people's access to the sites, which is illegal. That is hard ball. Had they been parading back and forth letting people know their views--fine. They have a right to picket and make their views known. They have no right to obstruct.
The cops aren't going to make up the laws though, it was up to the city to go get the injunction. Miller failed there too.
However the moment the union decided to use the hardball tactics of obstructing access to the dump sites the city should have retaliated with hardball tactics of its own.
Miller is weak.
HOSER1970!!! - once an agreeement is made between to bargining parties knowone involved sees the deal until it's time to vote. In this case knowone wanted the deal played out in the press, yes some of the info was leaked in this case. The sick days are grandfathered and the wages given were fair NOT generous.
How do you figure that? My whole busiiness career was in management and I had many a runin with the unions. I know their game and I appreciate their role in our society. My comments in this thread has been primarly directed on Miller and clarifying certain points, not the union.hoser1970 said:Funny how two of the biggest "union" supporters in this thread could not have come up with anything of more substance!
fuji said:
Absolultely true, howevever one thing.....
I have wonder that say in the next strike (and there will be another strike when this contract expires, you can bet on that), you've got a more centrist mayor who decides that he's going to set up the temporary dumps, BUT unlike Chairman Miller, he's going to hire Contractors to clean up the dumps on a daily basis, AND there will be none of this 15 minute wait bullshit like last time.
So now CUPE is enraged, right from the get-go.
Huge pickets form at each dump site, and no-one is getting in.
What do you do?
Call the cops?
I don't think that the cops in this city will do anything. After all, they are also City of Toronto workers, they are unionized (far more militant and they have guns), AND they don't want to lose their nice fat sick bank bennefit either.
Do the cops move in and bust heads?
Is that what we even want at the end of the day?
Do you turn the water canons on them? (Again, is that what you want?)
When the cops don't move in, then what - call the army? They aren't going to come in. The Feds would just say, "be serious - get your shit together"
As much as I would love to say use Contractors and replacement workers, I don't see it happening ever.
The only solution is to take the Garbage Weapon away. Contract out the pickup and disposal of garbage before the next contract expires. That way when the next strike happens, the garbage is NOT an issue. Let's face it, Sanitation is the single most important thing in the running of a city. (Sewers, Water, Garbage need to be dealth with.) Who really cares if they shut down pools, or daycare, or camps. But Sanitation, that's a different issue.
KNOWONE = either side, the union memebrs except for the bargining commitee
and the bargining commitee for the city see the deal first. Knowone except them is to see the deal until the ratification vote is taken. This is why some city counsel members were screaming for it (to see it) once a deal had been struck, NO they had to wait.
and the bargining commitee for the city see the deal first. Knowone except them is to see the deal until the ratification vote is taken. This is why some city counsel members were screaming for it (to see it) once a deal had been struck, NO they had to wait.
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