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Jersey City gunmen targeted Jewish grocery for lethal attack: mayor

basketcase

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Shack insinuates that I'm anti-semitic, but he ignores the fact that there is big history of a left leaning Jewish community in Toronto, just as there are Canadian Jews who are ashamed to be associated with Israeli policy, like IJVCanada.
Based on your obsessive hatred of Israel, repeated justifications for anyone anti-Israel (including saying it is racist to call Hamas a terrorist group) and your repeated use of the same anti-semitic tropes you condemn when they come from the right, it's a pretty fair assumption.

But nice that you have a "Jewish friend".
 

basketcase

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Celticman the victors write the history, the war for the creation of Israel was vicious. There were atrocities committed on both sides. Sadly Israel missed three opportunities to negotiate a settlement, the Palestinians remain stateless and the Jews can never have peace.
The fact that you say "Jews" instead of Israelis and Palestinians is a telling comment about the issue.

Though I am interested in what these three opportunities were where the Palestinian leadership were willing to accept peace.
 

shapeup1

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They were trying to kill children, it's not about Trump or Israel.

Jersey City mayor: Gunmen wanted to target next door Jewish school with 50 kids inside

If police hadn’t managed to trap shooters in kosher store where 3 killed, result would have been ‘much worse,’ says Steven Fulop; attack viewed as domestic terrorism.
Jersey City Mayor Steven Fulop said Friday that he believes that the two gunmen who attacked a kosher store in the city, killing three people inside, were actually planning to target a yeshiva next door that had 50 children inside at the time of the assault.

“My opinion is that as more info comes out it’ll become increasingly clear that the target was the 50 children at the Yeshiva attached to that store.” Fulop, who is Jewish, tweeted: “We will never know 100% but the doorway to the yeshiva was 3 feet away + it seems he goes in that direction 1st.”
Fulop said that if police had not managed to trap attackers in store, the result would have been much worse.
“This is a horrible tragedy but even in so much darkness with lives lost there is some light in that without question had the bra.very/quick response of the police not trapped them in the store this could have been much much worse,” he said.

On Thursday Attorney General Gurbir Grewal said the attack was driven by hatred of Jews and law enforcement and is being investigated as an act of domestic terrorism.
The two killers were armed with a variety of weapons, including an AR-15-style rifle and a shotgun that they were wielding when they stormed into the store in an attack that left the scene littered with several hundred shell casings, broken glass and a community in mourning. A pipebomb was also found in a stolen U-Haul van.

“The outcome would have been far, far worse” if not for the Jersey City Police, Grewal said Thursday. Authorities noted that the Jewish school was next to the market, and a Catholic school is across the street.

The attackers killed three people in the store, in addition to a police officer at a cemetery about a mile away, before dying in an hourslong gun battle with police Tuesday afternoon, authorities said.

Fulop later clarified his views to the New York Jewish Week, saying: “My job is different than the people that are doing the investigation. I do my best to say it how I see it.”
He cited the locations of the store and yeshiva and the large cache of weapons that the shooters brought in their vehicle.

“It’s very, very clear that the perpetrator first doesn’t go directly to the deli, he goes toward the door adjacent to it, the building and the doors adjacent to it are the yeshiva…he brought a pipe bomb and he brought 5 guns and hundreds of bullets…we know that he drove deliberately to that location,” said Fulop. “You put all things together, it’s hard to come to any other conclusion.”

On Thursday Grewal said it was clear the attack was anti-Semitic.

“The evidence points toward acts of hate. I can confirm that we’re investigating this matter as potential acts of domestic terrorism fueled both by anti-Semitism and anti-law enforcement beliefs,” the attorney general said. He said social media posts, witness interviews and other evidence reflected the couple’s hatred of Jews and police.

Grewal noted that after killing three people in the store, the couple concentrated their fire on police and did not shoot at others who happened to be on the streets.
Grewal said the attackers, David Anderson, 47, and Francine Graham, 50, had expressed interest in a fringe religious group called the Black Hebrew Israelites, whose members often rail against Jews and whites. But he said there was no evidence so far that they were members, and added that the two were believed to have acted alone.

The pair brought their cache of weapons in a U-Haul van they drove from Bay View Cemetery, where they shot and killed Jersey City Detective Joseph Seals, according to the attorney general.

The Tunnel2Towers organization, formed after Sept. 11 to support police officers killed in the line of duty, said Friday it would pay the mortgage of Seals, who left behind a wife and five children.

Director of Public Safety James Shea called Seals “the ultimate detective or officer we would point to to tell young officers, ‘This is how you should behave.'” He said Friday that he doubted Seals would have been ambushed by the pair. Authorities haven’t disclosed why Seals was in the cemetery or details of the confrontation that led to his death.

Anderson fired away with the AR-15-style rifle as he entered the store, while Graham brought a 12-gauge shotgun into the shop. They also had handguns with a homemade silencer and a device to catch shell casings. In all, they had five guns — four recovered in the store, one in the van — in what Grewal called a “tremendous amount of firepower.”

Serial numbers from two of the weapons showed that Graham purchased them in Ohio in 2018, the attorney general said. The victims killed in the store were: Mindel Ferencz, 31, who with her husband owned the grocery; 24-year-old Moshe Deutsch, a rabbinical student from Brooklyn who was shopping there; and store employee Douglas Miguel Rodriguez, 49. A fourth person in the store was shot and wounded but managed to escape, authorities said.

Members of New York’s ultra-Orthodox Jewish community gathered Wednesday night for funerals for Ferencz and Deutsch. Thousands of people, mostly men, followed Ferencz’s casket through the streets of Brooklyn, hugging and crying.

The bloodshed in the city of 270,000 people across the Hudson River from New York City spread fear through the Jewish community and weighed heavily on the minds of more than 300 people who attended a vigil Wednesday night at a synagogue about a mile from where the shootings took place.

In the deadliest attack on Jews in US history, 11 people were killed in an October 2018 shooting at a synagogue in Pittsburgh. Last April, a gunman opened fire at a synagogue near San Diego, killing a woman and wounding a rabbi and two others.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/jerse...ted-to-target-next-door-yeshiva-with-50-kids/
 

Frankfooter

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Based on your obsessive hatred of Israel, repeated justifications for anyone anti-Israel (including saying it is racist to call Hamas a terrorist group) and your repeated use of the same anti-semitic tropes you condemn when they come from the right, it's a pretty fair assumption.

But nice that you have a "Jewish friend".
You need to up your dosage again, basketcase, you're losing touch with reality.
I argue for the application of the law to both sides, equal rights and ending the strife through both sides honouring international law and Human Rights reports.
Your post is a veritable army of straw men.

When all you do is criticize everything about Israel with a transparent double standard, it's a fair discussion.
As Captain Kirk said, Israel is kills 9 times more people than Palestinians do, criticism is merited.
Israel has been the occupying force there for 50 years, why would you put an occupying force on the same moral ground as those they rule by gun?
You really think they are the same?
 

mellowjello

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You need to up your dosage again, basketcase, you're losing touch with reality.
I argue for the application of the law to both sides, equal rights and ending the strife through both sides honouring international law and Human Rights reports.
Your post is a veritable army of straw men.

I was just about to say.
As far as the eye can see.
Just utter nonsense.
 

basketcase

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You need to up your dosage again, basketcase, you're losing touch with reality.
I argue for the application of the law to both sides, equal rights and ending the strife through both sides honouring international law and Human Rights reports....
By arguing that Palestinians have the right to commit war crimes, Jews have no business being in the West Bank, and supporting Hamas' refusal to be involved in any peace talks?

... why would you put an occupying force on the same moral ground as those they rule by gun?...
Because morality is morality. Your pretence that Palestinians shouldn't be held to the same moral standards as everyone else is just more proof of your racist elitism which would have been right at home in Victorian England.

Also nice of you to admit you have a double standard here where Jews have no right to shoot violent attackers or kill terrorist leaders but Palestinians have a right to lob rockets at and target random Israeli civilians.
 

Frankfooter

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By arguing that Palestinians have the right to commit war crimes, Jews have no business being in the West Bank, and supporting Hamas' refusal to be involved in any peace talks?
Neither side has the 'right' to commit war crimes and both sides need to be held to the law.
The problem for you is you'd never agree to that since you know that Israel regularly kills 9-10 more civilians as they occupy Palestine by force.

Because morality is morality.
Yes, occupying another country is morally wrong.
Apartheid is morally wrong.


Your pretence that Palestinians shouldn't be held to the same moral standards as everyone
Both Israel and Palestine should be held to the same moral standards and investigated or charged by the ICC and ICJ.
You are the one arguing that Israel should never be held to the same standards here, not me.

Also nice of you to admit you have a double standard here where Jews have no right to shoot violent attackers or kill terrorist leaders but Palestinians have a right to lob rockets at and target random Israeli civilians.
Israel, as the military occupying force, is bound by the Geneva Conventions to treat those they occupy fairly, even when their occupation is illegal.
Palestinians, as illegally occupied, have a legal right to resist occupation, that does not include attacks on civilians or targeting civilians, or even use of their home made, tin can rockets, which can not be aimed only at military targets so are a war crime.

That's the law, dude.
 

Gooseifur

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Neither side has the 'right' to commit war crimes and both sides need to be held to the law.
The problem for you is you'd never agree to that since you know that Israel regularly kills 9-10 more civilians as they occupy Palestine by force.


Yes, occupying another country is morally wrong.
Apartheid is morally wrong.



Both Israel and Palestine should be held to the same moral standards and investigated or charged by the ICC and ICJ.
You are the one arguing that Israel should never be held to the same standards here, not me.


Israel, as the military occupying force, is bound by the Geneva Conventions to treat those they occupy fairly, even when their occupation is illegal.
Palestinians, as illegally occupied, have a legal right to resist occupation, that does not include attacks on civilians or targeting civilians, or even use of their home made, tin can rockets, which can not be aimed only at military targets so are a war crime.

That's the law, dude.
They aren't occupying another country. It was given to them by the rest of the world. They didn't take it by force.
 

Robert Mugabe

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They aren't occupying another country. It was given to them by the rest of the world. They didn't take it by force.
No. they had to fight for it.They had to overcome a Blockade by the British. Anyway, if you read Exodus,(Leon Uris) the Palestinians weren't doing anything with it anyway. At least the Israelis started growing oranges.
 

Frankfooter

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They aren't occupying another country. It was given to them by the rest of the world. They didn't take it by force.
Umm....

UN 2334
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_2334

The international community widely considers the establishment of Israeli settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories illegal on one of two bases: that they are in violation of Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention or that they are in breach of international declarations.[a][c][d][e] The United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the International Court of Justice and the High Contracting Parties to the Convention have all affirmed that the Fourth Geneva Convention applies to Israeli settlements.[f][g]

Numerous UN resolutions and prevailing international opinion hold that Israeli settlements in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights are a violation of international law, including UN Security Council resolutions in 1979, 1980,[8][9][10] and 2016.[11][12] UN Security Council Resolution 446 refers to the Fourth Geneva Convention as the applicable international legal instrument, and calls upon Israel to desist from transferring its own population into the territories or changing their demographic makeup. 126 Representatives at the reconvened Conference of the High Contracting Parties to the Geneva Conventions in 2014 declared the settlements illegal[13] as has the primary judicial organ of the UN, the International Court of Justice[14] and the International Committee of the Red Cross.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law_and_Israeli_settlements
 

Robert Mugabe

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Numerous UN resolutions and prevailing international opinion hold that Israeli settlements in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights are a violation of international law,
If you use the Golan Heights as a gun platform to lob shells into Israel, you are going to lose the Golan Heights. If you use Israeli passenger buses to blow the shit out of civilians on a weekly basis, you are going to get a wall as a check point so's you can't bring bombs strapped to your chest into the country .
 

Frankfooter

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If you use the Golan Heights as a gun platform to lob shells into Israel, you are going to lose the Golan Heights. If you use Israeli passenger buses to blow the shit out of civilians on a weekly basis, you are going to get a wall as a check point so's you can't bring bombs strapped to your chest into the country .
So you're saying the law doesn't matter because you want the land really badly?

As far as I know the West Bank and Golan heights are not countries.
Yes, that's why I posted this, to educate you.

They are not part of Israel, legally.
Golan Heights is Syrian, the West Bank is supposed to be part of Palestine.
Both are under occupation.
 

basketcase

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Neither side has the 'right' to commit war crimes and both sides need to be held to the law.....
So why have you repeatedly called Gaza rockets "self defense"? Why was your response to Palestinian polling saying 50% support "attacks on Israeli civilians inside Israel" that Palestinians need more hope?

You are a complete fraud because you only criticize Israel and repeatedly make excuses for terror groups like Hamas.
 

basketcase

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So you're saying the law doesn't matter because you want the land really badly?...
Which is the official policy of Hamas. Somehow you are okay with Hamas openly calling for an Islamic Caliphate in all of Mandate Palestine without Jews.
 

basketcase

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They are not part of Israel, legally.
Golan Heights is Syrian, the West Bank is supposed to be part of Palestine.
Both are under occupation.
Golan Heights was part of Syria. If Syria and Israel ever conclude their state of war than the situation could be rectified.

The West Bank was part of Jordan (who took it preventing a Palestinian state from being formed. All West Bank residents between 1949 and 1967 had Jordanian citizenship (which Jordan later stripped them of). In Jordan and Israel's peace deal, Jordan ceded control of the West Bank to Israel. Gaza is a similar story as it was Egyptian controlled before 1967 and their peace deal was ceded to Israel.

It is correct to say they are not officially part of Israel but according to all international bodies, the land of Palestine and its borders can only be defined by a negotiated peace.

And it is funny to see you advocating for the State of Palestine while completely rejecting a Two State peace. I guess you share opinions with groups like Hamas that Palestine should exist instead of Israel.
 

basketcase

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p.s. What is most noticeable is that people like Franky who claim to defend human rights have been pretty silent about the anti-semitic attack that this thread is about.
 

Frankfooter

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So why have you repeatedly called Gaza rockets "self defense"?
I haven't.

Which is the official policy of Hamas.
Why does your opinion of Hamas policy mean that Israel doesn't have to obey international law and the Geneva Conventions?

Golan Heights was part of Syria.
Acquisition of land through war is illegal, according to the Geneva Conventions that Israel has signed.

It is correct to say they are not officially part of Israel
Agreed, they are illegally occupied.

p.s. What is most noticeable is that people like Franky who claim to defend human rights have been pretty silent about the anti-semitic attack that this thread is about.
Wrong, I have stated that this attack was horrific and the best way to stop these types of attacks is to come out against all forms of racism, be it anti-semitism, anti-Palestinian, Islamaphobia, native or any group.
And that nationalism, be it the Trump form of white nationalism or Israel's Jewish nationalism all lead to more racism and more attacks.
 
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