Jays to trade DOC????

[Captain Fantastic]

Basically, I find all this "Doc to be traded" talk disgusting and disquieting. The last wad of BS from JP and Jays' management was that this is a "rebuilding year" because there was a bump in the Road to Magnificence because of Marcum and McGowan getting hurt and no starting pitching.

After this season, it was supposed to be our Era of Triumph as we would rout the Yanks, Rays and Sox and begin our dynasty. Remember how the spiel went?

Now it's the chant of "trade away all the highly-paid players". Let's go back to having 5 years of non-contention because we need to "rebuild" again. This means: Keep buying tickets, ass-suckers, for a team which is never, ever going to win anything again in our collective lifetimes. That way ownership will keep sucking back DEEP profits and avoid ever having to pay a real salary to a real star player.

Which is why I always mock the JP excuse of "we're in the same division as the Yanks and Sox."

My response: fine, then blow the team up, trade the talent for youth, build your scouting network and have a lower player payroll. Don't play the in-between game - big money on some players (in particular, the wrong players), but excuses galore. In essence, have a real five-year plan and not some b.s., neither here nor there, but whine about the "Jones'" (NY + BOS) nonsense.

 

[Rockslinger]

There is an article in the Globe on the Doc that makes several good points. One is that he is pitching in the toughest division in baseball. The other is that the Jay hitters don't always give him the run support hr deserves. Here is some interesting stats from the same article.

Lefty Grove 300-141 68.0%
Whitney Ford 236-106 69.0%
Pedro Martinez 214-99 68.3%
Doc Halladay 141-69 67.1%

 

[bangminton]

JP time is up. Time for new management. His 5-year plan didn't pan out and if he didn't fire his college buddy John *Gibby* Gibbons last year, he would not have lasted until now.

 

[popodaki]

I love Doc as much as anyone, but I think trading him is the right thing to do.

It’s quite obvious that the Jays, as currently configured, are not good enough to win in the AL East. This team is carrying way too much deadwood – they need to rebuild ASAP. It starts with axing JP.

I would love to see the Jays rid themselves of the albatross that is Vernon Wells, but that’s just a pipe dream. I don’t care what he might do next year, or the year after that.

The Jays need a serious culture change.

 

[The Oracle]

Their most tradeable assests are Rolen and Doc. A shrewd GM should be able to parlay this into a windfall. Question is whether J.P. has what it takes to pull thetrigger on the right deal for the future of the team.
On a side note I wonder what influence Beeston has in all this. I would hope that he has some. My guess is that J.P. is gone et the end of this season. If that is so they should do everything in their power to lure Gillick back. that man has a consistant track record and is a fan favourite. Fark they would have all the old crew back together. Gillick,Beeston and Cito. Could be a winning combo once again. Or just a pipe dream

 

[Kilgore Trout]

If Halladay leaves after 2010 as a free agent the Jays get something like a #25 pick in first round of 2011 draft and a pick in the supplementary round 1A of the draft.

Problem with this is that you can very easily end up with 2 David Coopers. Who is David Cooper? - he is the #1 pick of the Jays at around the #17 position in the draft in 2008 who has been kind of flat and underwhelming so far in minor league career. He literally has no pop in his bat so far and the Jays don't need another player like that especially at a corner infield position where it's nice to get a few homers.
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=476036

But, if you trade Halladay the starting price is the best pitcher in the other team's minor league system and the best hitting prospect in the other team's minor league system.

It's hard to give Halladay up because you can make a case he's the greatest player in the history of the franchise even though he never won a world series and the fans really like him a lot.
Still if you can't get him to sign a contract extension ahead of his free agent year you pretty much have to trade him ahead of time because it's not likely the Jays can throw money around like big market teams.

 

[tribunus]

I've been perusing various boards and blogs since Docs' availibility came to light. The consensus I've found is that most columnists and fans are willing to gut their farm systems for this guy. Fans from LA to Texas to St Louis to NY that don't know shit about the Blue Jays certainly know about Halladay. Several national columnists have stated that he is the one guy that makes untouchable prospects touchable.

We have to trade him. His value is infinite right now. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to secure immediate and future talent for years to come.

What is the value in keeping him around? Ok, every 5th day we have an excellent chance at winning. Fantastic. But is he going to increase attendance? I'm sure all these shitty little losses where we score a run or two for him frustrate him to no end. Let him to go to a real contender, pump up the stats, increase his profile, and solidify his shot at Cooperstown.

 

[squash500]

Get rid of Doc and soon. The Jays at one point this season were 27-14 and over the past 49 games they have gone 17-32 for a total record of 44-46.

Also get rid of JP at the end of the year and start a new 5 year plan. the Jays have no hope this year and might as well plan for the future. the Jays home attendance is low anyway so what difference would it really make if Doc is traded?

 

[Tiffany_69]

Get rid of Doc and soon. The Jays at one point this season were 27-14 and over the past 49 games they have gone 17-32 for a total record of 44-46.

Also get rid of JP at the end of the year and start a new 5 year plan. the Jays have no hope this year and might as well plan for the future. the Jays home attendance is low anyway so what difference would it really make if Doc is traded?

Your right. This team stinks.

 

[mandrill]

I've been perusing various boards and blogs since Docs' availibility came to light. The consensus I've found is that most columnists and fans are willing to gut their farm systems for this guy. Fans from LA to Texas to St Louis to NY that don't know shit about the Blue Jays certainly know about Halladay. Several national columnists have stated that he is the one guy that makes untouchable prospects touchable.

We have to trade him. His value is infinite right now. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to secure immediate and future talent for years to come.

Yep, I checked out the boards and blogs and the guy is major top prospect bait. I guess the mathematics is this: How many more games would Doc win that Romero won't win if Romero becomes our #1 starter o) ? And is the shortfall worth 2 or 3 solid can't miss prospects from another organization?

Also what is our pitching going to be like next year in a post-Doc world? Romero, Richmond, Marcum, Cecil, Purcey? Given some added maturity to the 4 and 5 slots, that is actually sort of doable.

 

[maurice93]

Yep, I checked out the boards and blogs and the guy is major top prospect bait. I guess the mathematics is this: How many more games would Doc win that Romero won't win if Romero becomes our #1 starter o) ? And is the shortfall worth 2 or 3 solid can't miss prospects from another organization?

Also what is our pitching going to be like next year in a post-Doc world? Romero, Richmond, Marcum, Cecil, Purcey? Given some added maturity to the 4 and 5 slots, that is actually sort of doable.

Actually the difference would be between Doc Halladay and the new #5 starter. Over 34 starts, it might be 10-15 games.

Everybody else is a constant.

 

[Toke]

Like I said before...

If I were GM (and judging by the one we have, I really wish I filled out an application when the job was vacant), any team wanting Halliday has to give up two top-major-league-ready youngsters plus one or two more top prospects. If Philly is so interested in having (or any team for that matter), I'd get them to trade with the Nationals to get that kid who went first in this year's draft. That's the price. Is it a lot? You bet your ass it is. No pitcher who isn't named Johan even comes close to being in Doc's league. Not CC, Greinke, Lee (flash in pan), Hammels... NOBODY! If teams don't wanna pay, all the Jays do is wait till the season ends; loose JP; hire a GM who can quickly retool; and see what happens next year.

Funny, I was reading a discussion board and you gotta hear some of the trades 'fans' are building. Most want him but won't give up their top prospects for him. Huh? Most think that trading the Jays their over-paid/under-producing players should get the deal done. If you don't want them, why would the Jays? Besides, they already have Wells.

 

[5hummer]

It'd suck if Doc was traded -- but, he's always been a class act and deserves to pitch in the post-season.

We better get some amazing talent in return!

 

[maurice93]

No pitcher who isn't named Johan even comes close to being in Doc's league. Not CC, Greinke, Lee (flash in pan), Hammels... NOBODY! \

Please explain how Halladay is much more valuable then CC Sabbathia. .

If you beleive yourself, you are placing way too much weight on the past three months.

They are both workhorses.

Halladay 32 years old
Sabbathia 28 years old

ERA + last four years:
Halladay: 143. 120. 154. 151
Sabbathia : 140, 143, 162, 114

I believe that they have equal standing value wise. That being said Halladay will get more then CC did last year because your getting him for parts of 2 seasons rather then one season.

And Tim Lincecum would have MUCH more value then Halladay on the open market.

 

[tribunus]

And Tim Lincecum would have MUCH more value then Halladay on the open market.

And to think we almost had Lincecum for Rios 2 years ago. If I recall correctly, the deal was essentially agreed upon during the winter meetings and then the Giants wanted to sleep on it, and wisely backed out.

 

[Toke]

Please explain how Halladay is much more valuable then CC Sabbathia. .

If you beleive yourself, you are placing way too much weight on the past three months.

They are both workhorses.

Halladay 32 years old
Sabbathia 28 years old

ERA + last four years:
Halladay: 143. 120. 154. 151
Sabbathia : 140, 143, 162, 114

I believe that they have equal standing value wise. That being said Halladay will get more then CC did last year because your getting him for parts of 2 seasons rather then one season.

And Tim Lincecum would have MUCH more value then Halladay on the open market.

Baseball stats are like a girl in a bikni; they both show you a lot, but not the whole story.

First off, I am no Jays fan. I have allegiance to no team, so I look at baseball quite objectively. Just judging by what non-Jays say about Halliday, I have to agree with them that he is the toughest pitcher. CC is great, but I'd say that he is less consistent than Doc; without looking at the last three months. To be honest, I have no idea what their stats are (funny, because I used to be able to quote stats like the alphabet). In the MLB, pitchers come and go so often (i.e. AJ, Gagne, Zito, Colon) that consistency must be taken into great consideration. CC has been consistently great, but outside of Johan and even more Doc, how many guys take the mound every five days and you are never suprised to see them spin a gem? Pitchers like Blanton, Wakefield, and Dice-K are great at giving your team a chance, but Johan and Doc make it near impossible for teams to rally off of them. It's that alone, that places them above the rest.

 

[maurice93]

Baseball stats are like a girl in a bikni; they both show you a lot, but not the whole story.

First off, I am no Jays fan. I have allegiance to no team, so I look at baseball quite objectively. Just judging by what non-Jays say about Halliday, I have to agree with them that he is the toughest pitcher. CC is great, but I'd say that he is less consistent than Doc; without looking at the last three months. To be honest, I have no idea what their stats are (funny, because I used to be able to quote stats like the alphabet). In the MLB, pitchers come and go so often (i.e. AJ, Gagne, Zito, Colon) that consistency must be taken into great consideration. CC has been consistently great, but outside of Johan and even more Doc, how many guys take the mound every five days and you are never suprised to see them spin a gem? Pitchers like Blanton, Wakefield, and Dice-K are great at giving your team a chance, but Johan and Doc make it near impossible for teams to rally off of them. It's that alone, that places them above the rest.

So I raise a valid counterpoint and ask for an explanation, and you give me

1. Stats schmatz. Great argument. There is no sport that stats mean anything more then baseball. (especially when comparing two players at the same position where defence is not at all part of the equation)

2. You watch baseball objectively. Great - so do I. And since you are so objective, one would think you rely on objective parameters rather then subjective parameters. .

3. You then make subjective arguments never really commenting on Halladay versus CC. You just state that you value consistency and toughness and find Halladay more consistent

Since you are objective, please present something "Objective" to show that Halladay has been more consistent then CC. I presented how they have been basically statistically equals the last four years.

You then bring up toughness. Did you not notice how brilliant Sabbathia was last September pitching on three days rest the last two weeks of the season? He gave up 2 earned runs over three starts.

Why are you bringing up mediocore pitchers like Joe Blanton and Tim Wakefiedld into the discussion and comparing them to Halladay They are not in the class of CC either.

Sorry, for being a jack-off but you made a strong claim that CC was not even close to the league of Halladay, that you can't support objectively nor subjectively..

In no way am I trying to argue that CC is more valuable then Halladay. I am just saying they are very close. CC got a hell of alot of return for Cleveland last year, for half a season. The return warranted for one of top pitcher in the league, Halladay will also get a hell of alot.

 

[SkyRider]

Lefty Grove 300-141 68.0%
Whitney Ford 236-106 69.0%
Pedro Martinez 214-99 68.3%
Doc Halladay 141-69 67.1%

Whitney Ford's W-L stats are inflated because he pitched for those great Yankee teams whereas the Doc is pitching for a mediocre team. I wouldn't be surprised if the Doc won more games for his team than Ford did. It seems that Doc is responsible for 25% of the Jays wins.

 

[Toke]

So I raise a valid counterpoint and ask for an explanation, and you give me

1. Stats schmatz. Great argument. There is no sport that stats mean anything more then baseball. (especially when comparing two players at the same position where defence is not at all part of the equation)

2. You watch baseball objectively. Great - so do I. And since you are so objective, one would think you rely on objective parameters rather then subjective parameters. .

3. You then make subjective arguments never really commenting on Halladay versus CC. You just state that you value consistency and toughness and find Halladay more consistent

Since you are objective, please present something "Objective" to show that Halladay has been more consistent then CC. I presented how they have been basically statistically equals the last four years.

You then bring up toughness. Did you not notice how brilliant Sabbathia was last September pitching on three days rest the last two weeks of the season? He gave up 2 earned runs over three starts.

Why are you bringing up mediocore pitchers like Joe Blanton and Tim Wakefiedld into the discussion and comparing them to Halladay They are not in the class of CC either.

Sorry, for being a jack-off but you made a strong claim that CC was not even close to the league of Halladay, that you can't support objectively nor subjectively..

In no way am I trying to argue that CC is more valuable then Halladay. I am just saying they are very close. CC got a hell of alot of return for Cleveland last year, for half a season. The return warranted for one of top pitcher in the league, Halladay will also get a hell of alot.

Don't have time to really reply now, but I just wanted to clear up what I meant as 'toughest'. Not in the physical/macho way. When I say toughest, I'm referring to 'tough to hit'.

 

[Insidious Von]

What's the problem with Wells and Rios, and hypothetically Travis Snyder, is not a lack of juice it's astro turf. Having to do wind sprints on concrete and plastic grass has laid waste to their hipps and knees. They are no longer able to generate power and their slugging % has nosedived. Llyod Moseby has spoken about what playing on astro turf cut short his career. If Wells and Rios went to another team they may have a chance at recovering their swing.

The Rays will have the same problem by 2011.

Trading Halladay will be a damn shame, he IS the best pitcher the Jays have ever had and a model citizen. Unlike JP who's all knowing arrogance has alienated everyone of influence. You knew this guy was a "caffonachio" with the disdain he showed to a loyal Jay like Buck Martinez. He should be fired immediately.

Ultimately the Jays are a reflection of their ownership - mediocre. That may be beyond a great baseball mind like Paul Beeston to fix.