Jays to trade DOC????

[SkyRider]

A run of team successes would make him an eventual candidate for the HoF.

Plus, a contending team will probably mean more run support. As good as Doc is, he is not a Koufax, Ryan, Johnson, etc. and needs at least 3 runs a game to be a consistent winner.

 

[Captain Fantastic]

Plus, a contending team will probably mean more run support. As good as Doc is, he is not a Koufax, Ryan, Johnson, etc. and needs at least 3 runs a game to be a consistent winner.

Every pitcher in this (and most) era needs at least 3 runs a game to be a consistent winner, Captain Obvious.

Doc is the best starting pitcher of the last 5 years. Period. (Second best at worst, but more durable than the other possible #1, Johan Santana.) His ERA+ is 132. (This means he is 32% better than the average of his era. For comparison, Unit is 136, Pedro - the best I've ever seen in person - is 154, Roger Clemens 143, Greg Maddux 132, Santana 143, CC Sabathia 121.)

As an aside, what is it with everyone and Nolan Ryan? He is totally overrated. Almost 5 walks/game. Barely above average ERA (110 ERA+). Never a starter on a WS winner - hardly ever pitched in the post-season. Dominated one game, average in the next. He's AJ Burnett with much better durability. Very good HOF-er, sexy numbers (strikeouts and no hitters) but not a Pantheon-level all-timer.

 

[OnTheWayOut]

So we all know who those perennial contenders are, huh? Dodgers, Angels, Bosox and "You know who".

The Dodgers are perennial contenders?????? Go look at their record the last several years and get back to us ........

As a Phillies phan I'd love to see them work a deal for Doc. But while Philly is a large city, the team acts like it's a small market. Hell, they sell out like 85% of their games, they should be able to afford him. Doc/Hamels would be a dynamite one-two punch and scary for teams facing them in the playoffs. Reminds me of Johnson/Schilling who almost carried the D-backs almost by themselves to the WS championship a few years back. I'm afraid that duo is just a dream tho .....

 

[blueline]

Just as a comparison, consider what the Twins received from the Mets in the Johan Santana trade in 2008. Would Jays fans be happy with something similar?

1. Carlos Gomez 22 yrs old in 2008. Currently Twins starting CF'er, he was one of the top prospects in the Mets organization. He was also considered to be a 5 tool player. So far, he doesn't look like it. In 2008 he hit .251, has 7 total HRs in over 170 games with the Twins. He also led all MLB center fielders in errors last season.

2. Phil Humber was 25 at the time of the trade. A pitcher, he was Mets 1st round pick in the 2004 draft (3rd overall). In 2005 he had Tommy John surgery and was DFA (designated for assignment) by the Twins in April 2009. Now in 'AAA' Rochester with a record of 3-6, 6.16.

3. Deolis Guerra 19 yr old Pitcher. Currently in 'AA.

4. Kevin Mulvey 23 year old pitcher. Now with 'AAA' Rochester with a record of 3-5, 4.17.

Hands up, all Jays fans who would be happy if JP pulled off a deal similar to this one.

IMO, JP has to move him. The question is when? JP said he won't be able to afford him. At this point, their chances of playing in the post season in 2009 are very slim at best. Jays would need near-perfect health and near-peak production to contend next year, so their best chance to obtain more than draft picks for their ace could be right now. If Doc walks after the 2010 season, Jays would get two draft picks.

 

[maurice93]

Aaah, the might-have-beens. The Unit and Pedro as a back to back 1-2 would have made history!

They would have never been paid... the "might have beens" from 1994 were pretty damn good and never had the chance either But the local ownership group (12 guys who were risk averse)who only had in profit in mind had the "Perfect" formula.. Claude Mother Fucking Brochu guranteed them they had the perfect formula for profit.... 18K+ fans + MLB revenue sharing + Low Payroll = Healthy Return on Investment. Surely this market would always get 1.5 million fans Brochu estimated. It always had and they were not always in contention.

Montreal was never likely going to be a great baseball market again, but it was not the worst either at the beginning of the 90's... it looked bad in Canada in comparison to Toronto who were packing the dome, but they were doing OK attendance wise. (around 20,000 a game)

Then something happened and local ownership fucked up there magic formula. The Expos became "TOO GOOD" in 1993 and 1994, a few more fans returned, and all these young players were in arbitration and getting close too free agency.... and the ownership had to choose between taking a risk (adding a moderate level of payroll) or the guaranteed formula for profit. Claude Brochu ensured the owners that 18,000 fans a game would come, and they dumped players for the guaranteed profit.

It was a brutal miscalculation Surprise, surprise, fans from a slightly below average market revolted after they traded away three all stars and let Walker walk after having the best team in baseball in 1994. And Brochu's assurance that 18,000 fans would show up no matter what was wrong.

Two things happened... fans reacted poorly to
a) Trading away everybody from 1994-1997
b) After 18 years of either contention or .500 ball, in 1997 the team finally hit the wall, It had to happen after the neglect of ownership. It would be the first National League team in a long time not to win 70 games once over a four year period.

Attendance fell rapidly. How people solely blame the fans for leaving blows my fucking mind. I wish I would have been smart and abandoned ship like they did in the mid 90's.
o

No matter what anybody says here, there is nothing worse then being an Expos fan. No team has ever treated its fans like shit as the Expos did in the 1990's. By 2000. the team was dead. Something had to be done. But don't worry Loria and Bud Selig made sure to kick the remaining fans in the nuts before they closed shop.

Fuck you local owners, Brochu, Loria, and Bud Selig. And fuck you to Charles Bronfman for giving Toronto exlcusive Territorial Rights accross Canada for a quick buck before he left in the late 80's. And fuck you to the Blue Jays for selling out there Canadian mates and voting for them to be contracted. They could have had class and abstained.

About once a year I hi-jack a thread somewhere and have one of these rants.

 

[blueline]

The Dodgers are perennial contenders?????? Go look at their record the last several years and get back to us ........

As a Phillies phan I'd love to see them work a deal for Doc. But while Philly is a large city, the team acts like it's a small market. Hell, they sell out like 85% of their games, they should be able to afford him. Doc/Hamels would be a dynamite one-two punch and scary for teams facing them in the playoffs. Reminds me of Johnson/Schilling who almost carried the D-backs almost by themselves to the WS championship a few years back. I'm afraid that duo is just a dream tho .....

Hamels/Pedro may be more realistic.

 

[Rockslinger]

As an aside, what is it with everyone and Nolan Ryan?

He might not always be at his best when he was at his best he was unhittable and unforgettable. He is like that cute blonde with the double D's in high school, she might give "it" up only once in a blue moon but when she does you will remember that one golden moment for the rest of your life.

To-day's game is a classic example of why Doc should leave the Jays. He gives up a lousy 3 runs and loses because the lousy Jays offense could score only twice.

 

[Toke]

As an aside, what is it with everyone and Nolan Ryan? He is totally overrated. Almost 5 walks/game. Barely above average ERA (110 ERA+). Never a starter on a WS winner - hardly ever pitched in the post-season. Dominated one game, average in the next. He's AJ Burnett with much better durability. Very good HOF-er, sexy numbers (strikeouts and no hitters) but not a Pantheon-level all-timer.

I thought I was the only one who thought that about Ryan.

 

[Rockslinger]

I thought I was the only one who thought that about Ryan.

But when he dominated, he DOMINATED! He also pitched in an era when many of his peers were future HOF'ers so by comparison he seemed only slightly better than average. If he pitched to-day, he would win 29 games every year.

 

[Toke]

But when he dominated, he DOMINATED!

I dunno. To me 'domination' is not measured in flashes; it's measured in era.

 

[Captain Fantastic]

Huh?!?

But when he dominated, he DOMINATED!

That could be said for anyone. Rich Harden looks like Cy Young+Walter Johnson+Greg Maddux+Pedro Martinez on some days.

He also pitched in an era when many of his peers were future HOF'ers so by comparison he seemed only slightly better than average.

Nolan Ryan pitched in the National League for most of his prime career. Meaning there was one automatic out every 9 batters. His era was also the small-ball, slap-hitting, speed era - meaning there were fewer big boppers to kill him when he had "one of those games" (which were fairly often.)

How about this: name his AL and NL HOF peers that were so prevalent - I can't think of many great pitchers from the 70s-80s. And I guarantee you that the lineups they faced don't stack up to the on-base-percentage, steroid-induced, homer-happy 90s and 2000s.

If he pitched to-day, he would win 29 games every year.

The 29 wins is laughable - thanks for the chuckle. He would walk 8 batters per game with today's more patient hitters and be pulled in 5 innnings. Like I said earlier, Nolan Ryan = AJ Burnett with very great durability. One game great, the next... meh.

Let me repeat: HOF in the upper half of players. Tremendously durable. But not in the top 10 or 25 pitchers of all-time. No Cy Young awards (and only one second-place finish.) No World Series (other than as a spot reliever.) No dominating performances in big games. 292 losses. Barely above average ERA+. Most walks issued ever - by close to 1,000 over #2! Avoided playing for real contenders each time he was a free agent or a pending free agent. Neutralized ERA of almost 4. Terrible fielder. Above-average WHIP. Barely above .500 winning %.

This sums it up:

He was a freakshow in that he struck alot of people out, was incredibly durable, and you got the feeling anytime you watched him pitch he could throw a no-hitter. He also walked a ton of guys, never really adjusted his gameplan(always just giving it on every pitch), and was never a Cy Young winner.

But he was special, and unique in the scheme of things. So as a pitcher he is over-rated, but his place in history is not as a great pitcher so much as being a K machine and throwing no-hitters, which combined with a 27 year major league career and the numerous K records makes him a very noteworthy player.

 

[Toronto Passions]

As an aside, what is it with everyone and Nolan Ryan? He is totally overrated.

It was the "aura" of him tossing a no no at any given moment. Every start was a threat. His heater was famous, and when he found his duece, he was nearly untouchable.

Statistic wise, I'm with you. Not much going on there minus him being the king of k's. Even though it was before my time, I've always heard J.R. Richards threw harder.

 

[OnTheWayOut]

Ouch!

Hamels/Pedro may be more realistic.

You had to say that didn't you?

 

[Rockslinger]

It was the "aura" of him tossing a no no at any given moment. Every start was a threat. His heater was famous, and when he found his duece, he was nearly untouchable.

First of all, I do not question the Captain's Nolan Ryan stats. But you know what they say. Stats are for accountants.

I saw the "Ryan Express" real time both on TV and in person. When he took the mound there was that air of anticipation and excitement or "aura" as TP puts it.

I don't get that air of anticipation and excitement when the Doc takes the mound. He is a true craftsman and probably the most competent pitcher of his generation. But, he does not raise my heartbeat.

 

[OnTheWayOut]

I saw the "Ryan Express" real time both on TV and in person. When he took the mound there was that air of anticipation and excitement or "aura" as TP puts it.

I don't get that air of anticipation and excitement when the Doc takes the mound. He is a true craftsman and probably the most competent pitcher of his generation. But, he does not raise my heartbeat.

Excellent take, my sentiments exactly. Still, I hope he ends up with the Phillies, they have plenty other heartbeat raisers Most competent is what they need right now.

 

[SkyRider]

The Toronto Sun is running two concurrent Jays trade stories.

One is that any team who takes Doc must also take Wells and/or Rios.

The other is that Rolen could also be traded for the right deal.

 

[maurice93]

First of all, I do not question the Captain's Nolan Ryan stats. But you know what they say. Stats are for accountants.

I saw the "Ryan Express" real time both on TV and in person. When he took the mound there was that air of anticipation and excitement or "aura" as TP puts it.

I don't get that air of anticipation and excitement when the Doc takes the mound. He is a true craftsman and probably the most competent pitcher of his generation. But, he does not raise my heartbeat.

Seems like your confusing how good a performer one is with how good an entertainer is.

This is not the WWE. Athletes rise above and becomechampions based on how good they perform not on how they can entertain fans.

 

[mandrill]

The Toronto Sun is running two concurrent Jays trade stories.

One is that any team who takes Doc must also take Wells and/or Rios.

The other is that Rolen could also be traded for the right deal.

Right now, Rolen would be the ideal trade. Resurgent and therefore valuable to a contender. However, also aging and injury-prone. Blink twice and he's on the DL for 2 months and hitting .250 when he comes back.

The problem with trading Rios and Wells is how do you replace them? It's a nice salary dump, but either or both of those guys could get it together next season and hit .300 again. And then you'll look like an asshole for trading them. If Rios and Wells played up to their career stats, then the Jays would have a pretty nasty BO.

 

[mandrill]

Basically, I find all this "Doc to be traded" talk disgusting and disquieting. The last wad of BS from JP and Jays' management was that this is a "rebuilding year" because there was a bump in the Road to Magnificence because of Marcum and McGowan getting hurt and no starting pitching.

After this season, it was supposed to be our Era of Triumph as we would rout the Yanks, Rays and Sox and begin our dynasty. Remember how the spiel went?

Now it's the chant of "trade away all the highly-paid players". Let's go back to having 5 years of non-contention because we need to "rebuild" again. This means: Keep buying tickets, ass-suckers, for a team which is never, ever going to win anything again in our collective lifetimes. That way ownership will keep sucking back DEEP profits and avoid ever having to pay a real salary to a real star player.

 

[tribunus]

Always interesting to read about Doc rumours. A tonne of them here:

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/fantasy/...lladay-trade-rumor-roundup?urn=fantasy,175710

oagre please don't click on the link. It may upset you some more.