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Israel, the Big Lie

oil&gas

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Apr 16, 2002
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Ghawar
Chris Hedges
May 14, 2021

Nearly all the words and phrases used by the Democrats, Republicans and the talking heads on the media to describe the unrest inside Israel and the heaviest Israeli assault against the Palestinians since the 2014 attacks on Gaza, which lasted 51 days and killed more than 2,200 Palestinians, including 551 children, are a lie. Israel, by employing its military machine against an occupied population that does not have mechanized units, an air force, navy, missiles, heavy artillery and command-and-control, not to mention a U.S. commitment to provide a $38 billion defense aid package for Israel over the next decade, is not exercising “the right to defend itself.” It is carrying out mass murder. It is a war crime.

Israel has made it clear it is ready to destroy and kill as wantonly now as it was in 2014. Israel’s defense minister Benny Gantz, who was the chief of staff during the murderous assault on Gaza in 2014, has vowed that if Hamas “does not stop the violence, the strike of 2021 will be harder and more painful than that of 2014.” The current attacks have already targeted several residential high rises including buildings that housed over a dozen local and international press agencies, government buildings, roads, public facilities, agricultural lands, two schools and a mosque.

I spent seven years in the Middle East as a correspondent, four of them as The New York Times Middle East Bureau Chief. I am an Arabic speaker. I lived for weeks at a time in Gaza, the world’s largest open-air prison where over two million Palestinians exist on the edge of starvation, struggle to find clean water and endure constant Israeli terror. I have been in Gaza when it was pounded with Israeli artillery and air strikes. I have watched mothers and fathers, wailing in grief, cradling the bloodied bodies of their sons and daughters. I know the crimes of the occupation—the food shortages caused by the Israeli blockade, the stifling overcrowding, the contaminated water, the lack of health services, the near constant electrical outages due to the Israeli targeting of power plants, the crippling poverty, the endemic unemployment, the fear and the despair. I have witnessed the carnage.

I also have listened from Gaza to the lies emanating from Jerusalem and Washington. Israel’s indiscriminate use of modern, industrial weapons to kill thousands of innocents, wound thousands more and make tens of thousands of families homeless is not a war: It is state-sponsored terror. And, while I oppose the indiscriminate firing of rockets by Palestinians into Israel, as I oppose suicide bombings, seeing them also as war crimes, I am acutely aware of a huge disparity between the industrial violence carried out by Israel against innocent Palestinians and the minimal acts of violence capable of being waged by groups such as Hamas.

The false equivalency between Israeli and Palestinian violence was echoed during the war I covered in Bosnia. Those of us in the besieged city of Sarajevo were pounded daily with hundreds of heavy shells and rockets from the surrounding Serbs. We were targeted by sniper fire. The city suffered a few dozen dead and wounded each day. The government forces inside the city fired back with light mortars and small arms fire. Supporters of the Serbs seized on any casualties caused by Bosnian government forces to play the same dirty game, although well over 90 percent of the killings in Bosnia were the fault of the Serbs, as is also true regarding Israel.

The second and perhaps most important parallel is that the Serbs, like the Israelis, were the principal violators of international law. Israel is in breach of more than 30 U.N. Security Council resolutions. It is in breach of Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention that defines collective punishment of a civilian population as a war crime. It is in violation of Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention for settling over half a million Jewish Israelis on occupied Palestinian land and for the ethnic cleansing of at least 750,000 Palestinians when the Israeli state was founded and another 300,000 after Gaza, East Jerusalem and the West Bank were occupied following the 1967 war. Its annexation of East Jerusalem and the Syrian Golan Heights violates international law, as does its building of a security barrier in the West Bank that annexes Palestinian land into Israel. It is in violation of U.N. General Assembly Resolution 194 that states that Palestinian “refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date.”

This is the truth. Any other starting point for the discussion of what is taking place between Israel and the Palestinians is a lie.

Israel’s once vibrant peace movement and political left, which condemned and protested against the Israeli occupation when I lived in Jerusalem, is moribund. The right-wing Netanyahu government, despite its rhetoric about fighting terrorism, has built an alliance with the repressive regime in Saudi Arabia, which also views Iran as an enemy. Saudi Arabia, a country that produced 15 of the 19 hijackers in the September 11 attacks, is reputed to be the most prolific sponsor of international Islamist terrorism, allegedly supporting Salafist jihadism, the basis of al-Qaeda, and groups such as the Afghanistan Taliban, Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) and the Al-Nusra Front.

Saudi Arabia and Israel worked closely together to back the 2013 military coup in Egypt, led by General Adbul Fattah el Sisi. Sisi overthrew a democratically elected government. He has imprisoned tens of thousands of government critics, including journalists and human rights defenders, on politically motivated charges. The Sisi regime collaborates with Israel by keeping its common border with Gaza closed to Palestinians, trapping them in the Gaza strip, one of the most densely populated places on earth. Israel’s cynicism and hypocrisy, especially when it wraps itself in the mantle of protecting democracy and fighting terrorism, is of epic proportions.

Those who are not Jewish in Israel are either second class citizens or live under brutal military occupation. Israel is not, and never has been, the exclusive homeland of the Jewish people. From the 7th century until 1948, when Jewish colonial settlers used violence and ethnic cleansing to create the state of Israel, Palestine was overwhelmingly Muslim. It was never empty land. The Jews in Palestine were traditionally a tiny minority. The United States is not an honest broker for peace but has funded, enabled and defended Israel’s crimes against the Palestinian people. Israel is not defending the rule of law. Israel is not a democracy. It is an apartheid state.

That the lie of Israel continues to be embraced by the ruling elites–there is no daylight between statements in defense of Israeli war crimes by Nancy Pelosi and Ted Cruz–and used as a foundation for any discussion of Israel is a testament to the corrupting power of money, in this case that of the Israel lobby, and the bankruptcy of a political system of legalized bribery that has surrendered its autonomy and its principles to its major donors. It is also a stunning example of how colonial settler projects, and this is true in the United States, always carry out cultural genocide so they can exist in a suspended state of myth and historical amnesia to legitimize themselves.

The Israel lobby has shamelessly used its immense political clout to demand that Americans take de facto loyalty oaths to Israel. The passage by 35 state legislatures of Israel lobby-backed legislation requiring their workers and contractors, under threat of dismissal, to sign a pro-Israel oath and promise not to support the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement is a mockery of our Constitutional right of free speech. Israel has lobbied the U.S. State Department to redefine anti-Semitism under a three-point test known as the Three Ds: the making of statements that “demonize” Israel; statements that apply “double standards” for Israel; statements that “delegitimize” the state of Israel. This definition of anti-Semitism is being pushed by the Israel lobby in state legislatures and on college campuses. The Israel lobby spies in the United States, often at the direction of Israel’s Ministry of Strategic Affairs, on those who speak up for the rights of Palestinians. It wages public smear campaigns and blacklists defenders of Palestinian rights–including the Jewish historian Norman Finkelstein; U.N. Special Rapporteur for the Occupied Territories, Richard Falk, also Jewish; and university students, many of them Jewish, in organizations such as Students for Justice in Palestine.

The Israel lobby has spent hundreds of millions of dollars to manipulate U.S. elections, far beyond anything alleged to have been carried out by Russia, China or any other country. The heavy-handed interference by Israel in the American political system, which includes operatives and donors bundling together hundreds of thousands of dollars in campaign contributions in every U.S. congressional district to bankroll compliant candidates, is documented in the Al-Jazeera four-part series “The Lobby.” Israel managed to block “The Lobby” from being broadcast. In the film, a pirated copy that is available on the website Electronic Intifada, the leaders of the Israel lobby are repeatedly captured on a reporter’s hidden camera explaining how they, backed by the intelligence services within Israel, attack and silence American critics and use massive cash donations to buy politicians. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu secured the unconstitutional invitation by then-House Speaker John Boehner to address Congress in 2015 to denounce President Barack Obama’s Iranian nuclear agreement. Netanyahu’s open defiance of Obama and alliance with the Republican Party, however, did not stop Obama in 2014 from authorizing a 10-year $38 billion military aid package to Israel, a sad commentary on how captive American politics is to Israeli interests.

The investment by Israel and is backers is worth it, especially when you consider that the U.S. has also spent over $ 6 trillion during the last 20 years fighting futile wars that Israel and its lobby pushed for in the Middle East. These wars are the greatest strategic debacle in American history, accelerating the decline of the American empire, bankrupting the nation at a time of economic stagnation and mounting poverty, and turning huge parts of the globe against us. They serve Israel’s interests, not ours.

The longer the mendacious Israeli narrative is embraced, the more empowered become the racists, bigots, conspiracy theorists and far-right hate groups inside and outside Israel. This steady shift to the far right in Israel has fostered an alliance between Israel and the Christian right, many of whom are anti-Semites. The more Israel and the Israel lobby level the charge of anti-Semitism against those who speak up for Palestinian rights, as they did against British Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn, the more they embolden the real anti-Semites.

Racism, including anti-Semitism, is dangerous. It is not only bad for the Jews. It is bad for everyone. It empowers the dark forces of ethnic and religious hatred on the extremes. Netanyahu’s racist government has built alliances with far-right leaders in Hungary, India, and Brazil, and was closely allied with Donald Trump. Racists and ethnic chauvinists, as I saw in the wars in the former Yugoslavia, feed off of each other. They divide societies into polarized, antagonistic camps that only speak in the language of violence. The radical jihadists need Israel to justify their violence, just as Israel needs the radical jihadists to justify its violence. These extremists are ideological twins.

This polarization fosters a fearful, militarized society. It permits the ruling elites in Israel, as in the United States, to dismantle civil liberties in the name of national security. Israel runs training programs for militarized police, including from the United States. It is a global player in the multibillion-dollar drone industry, competing against China and the United States.

It oversees hundreds of cybersurveillance startups whose espionage innovations, according to the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, have been utilized abroad “to locate and detain human rights activists, persecute members of the LGBT community, silence citizens critical of their governments, and even fabricate cases of blasphemy against Islam in Muslim countries that don’t maintain formal relations with Israel.”

Israel, like the United States, has been poisoned by the psychosis of permanent war. One million Israelis, many of them among the most enlightened and educated, have left the country. Its most courageous human rights campaigners, intellectuals and journalists—Israeli and Palestinian—endure constant government surveillance, arbitrary arrests and vicious government-run smear campaigns. Mobs and vigilantes, including thugs from right-wing youth groups such as Im Tirtzu, physically assault dissidents, Palestinians, Israeli Arabs and African immigrants in the slums of Tel Aviv. These Jewish extremists have targeted Palestinians in the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood, demanding their expulsion. They are supported by an array of anti-Arab groups including the Otzma Yehudit Party, the ideological descendant of the outlawed Kach party, the Lehava movement, which calls for all Palestinians in Israel and the occupied territories to be expelled to surrounding Arab states, and La Familia, far-right soccer hooligans. Lehava in Hebrew means “flame” and is the acronym for “Prevention of Assimilation in the Holy Land.” Mobs of these Jewish fanatics parade through Palestinian neighborhoods, including in occupied East Jerusalem, protected by Israeli police, shouting to the Palestinians who live there “Death to the Arabs,” which is also a popular chant at Israeli soccer matches.

Israel has pushed through a series of discriminatory laws against non-Jews that echo the racist Nuremberg Laws that disenfranchised Jews in Nazi Germany. The Communities Acceptance Law, for example, permits “small, exclusively Jewish towns planted across Israel’s Galilee region to formally reject applicants for residency on the grounds of ‘suitability to the community’s fundamental outlook.” Israel’s educational system, starting in primary school, uses the Holocaust to portray Jews as eternal victims. This victimhood is an indoctrination machine used to justify racism, Islamophobia, religious chauvinism and the deification of the Israeli military.

There are many parallels between the deformities that grip Israel and the deformities that grip the United States. The two countries are moving at warp speed towards a 21rst century fascism, cloaked in religious language, which will revoke what remains of our civil liberties and snuff out our anemic democracies. The failure of the United States to stand up for the rule of law, to demand that the Palestinians, powerless and friendless, even in the Arab world, be granted basic human rights mirrors the abandonment of the vulnerable within our own society. We are headed, I fear, down the road Israel is heading down. It will be devastating for the Palestinians. It will be devastating for us. And all resistance, as the Palestinians courageously show us, will only come from the street.

 

NotADcotor

His most imperial galactic atheistic majesty.
Mar 8, 2017
6,029
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The big lie is New Zealand. People actually believe it exists.
Like really.
 

Charlemagne

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2017
15,451
2,484
113
Chris Hedges
May 14, 2021

Nearly all the words and phrases used by the Democrats, Republicans and the talking heads on the media to describe the unrest inside Israel and the heaviest Israeli assault against the Palestinians since the 2014 attacks on Gaza, which lasted 51 days and killed more than 2,200 Palestinians, including 551 children, are a lie. Israel, by employing its military machine against an occupied population that does not have mechanized units, an air force, navy, missiles, heavy artillery and command-and-control, not to mention a U.S. commitment to provide a $38 billion defense aid package for Israel over the next decade, is not exercising “the right to defend itself.” It is carrying out mass murder. It is a war crime.

Israel has made it clear it is ready to destroy and kill as wantonly now as it was in 2014. Israel’s defense minister Benny Gantz, who was the chief of staff during the murderous assault on Gaza in 2014, has vowed that if Hamas “does not stop the violence, the strike of 2021 will be harder and more painful than that of 2014.” The current attacks have already targeted several residential high rises including buildings that housed over a dozen local and international press agencies, government buildings, roads, public facilities, agricultural lands, two schools and a mosque.

I spent seven years in the Middle East as a correspondent, four of them as The New York Times Middle East Bureau Chief. I am an Arabic speaker. I lived for weeks at a time in Gaza, the world’s largest open-air prison where over two million Palestinians exist on the edge of starvation, struggle to find clean water and endure constant Israeli terror. I have been in Gaza when it was pounded with Israeli artillery and air strikes. I have watched mothers and fathers, wailing in grief, cradling the bloodied bodies of their sons and daughters. I know the crimes of the occupation—the food shortages caused by the Israeli blockade, the stifling overcrowding, the contaminated water, the lack of health services, the near constant electrical outages due to the Israeli targeting of power plants, the crippling poverty, the endemic unemployment, the fear and the despair. I have witnessed the carnage.

I also have listened from Gaza to the lies emanating from Jerusalem and Washington. Israel’s indiscriminate use of modern, industrial weapons to kill thousands of innocents, wound thousands more and make tens of thousands of families homeless is not a war: It is state-sponsored terror. And, while I oppose the indiscriminate firing of rockets by Palestinians into Israel, as I oppose suicide bombings, seeing them also as war crimes, I am acutely aware of a huge disparity between the industrial violence carried out by Israel against innocent Palestinians and the minimal acts of violence capable of being waged by groups such as Hamas.

The false equivalency between Israeli and Palestinian violence was echoed during the war I covered in Bosnia. Those of us in the besieged city of Sarajevo were pounded daily with hundreds of heavy shells and rockets from the surrounding Serbs. We were targeted by sniper fire. The city suffered a few dozen dead and wounded each day. The government forces inside the city fired back with light mortars and small arms fire. Supporters of the Serbs seized on any casualties caused by Bosnian government forces to play the same dirty game, although well over 90 percent of the killings in Bosnia were the fault of the Serbs, as is also true regarding Israel.

The second and perhaps most important parallel is that the Serbs, like the Israelis, were the principal violators of international law. Israel is in breach of more than 30 U.N. Security Council resolutions. It is in breach of Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention that defines collective punishment of a civilian population as a war crime. It is in violation of Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention for settling over half a million Jewish Israelis on occupied Palestinian land and for the ethnic cleansing of at least 750,000 Palestinians when the Israeli state was founded and another 300,000 after Gaza, East Jerusalem and the West Bank were occupied following the 1967 war. Its annexation of East Jerusalem and the Syrian Golan Heights violates international law, as does its building of a security barrier in the West Bank that annexes Palestinian land into Israel. It is in violation of U.N. General Assembly Resolution 194 that states that Palestinian “refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date.”

This is the truth. Any other starting point for the discussion of what is taking place between Israel and the Palestinians is a lie.

Israel’s once vibrant peace movement and political left, which condemned and protested against the Israeli occupation when I lived in Jerusalem, is moribund. The right-wing Netanyahu government, despite its rhetoric about fighting terrorism, has built an alliance with the repressive regime in Saudi Arabia, which also views Iran as an enemy. Saudi Arabia, a country that produced 15 of the 19 hijackers in the September 11 attacks, is reputed to be the most prolific sponsor of international Islamist terrorism, allegedly supporting Salafist jihadism, the basis of al-Qaeda, and groups such as the Afghanistan Taliban, Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) and the Al-Nusra Front.

Saudi Arabia and Israel worked closely together to back the 2013 military coup in Egypt, led by General Adbul Fattah el Sisi. Sisi overthrew a democratically elected government. He has imprisoned tens of thousands of government critics, including journalists and human rights defenders, on politically motivated charges. The Sisi regime collaborates with Israel by keeping its common border with Gaza closed to Palestinians, trapping them in the Gaza strip, one of the most densely populated places on earth. Israel’s cynicism and hypocrisy, especially when it wraps itself in the mantle of protecting democracy and fighting terrorism, is of epic proportions.

Those who are not Jewish in Israel are either second class citizens or live under brutal military occupation. Israel is not, and never has been, the exclusive homeland of the Jewish people. From the 7th century until 1948, when Jewish colonial settlers used violence and ethnic cleansing to create the state of Israel, Palestine was overwhelmingly Muslim. It was never empty land. The Jews in Palestine were traditionally a tiny minority. The United States is not an honest broker for peace but has funded, enabled and defended Israel’s crimes against the Palestinian people. Israel is not defending the rule of law. Israel is not a democracy. It is an apartheid state.

That the lie of Israel continues to be embraced by the ruling elites–there is no daylight between statements in defense of Israeli war crimes by Nancy Pelosi and Ted Cruz–and used as a foundation for any discussion of Israel is a testament to the corrupting power of money, in this case that of the Israel lobby, and the bankruptcy of a political system of legalized bribery that has surrendered its autonomy and its principles to its major donors. It is also a stunning example of how colonial settler projects, and this is true in the United States, always carry out cultural genocide so they can exist in a suspended state of myth and historical amnesia to legitimize themselves.

The Israel lobby has shamelessly used its immense political clout to demand that Americans take de facto loyalty oaths to Israel. The passage by 35 state legislatures of Israel lobby-backed legislation requiring their workers and contractors, under threat of dismissal, to sign a pro-Israel oath and promise not to support the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement is a mockery of our Constitutional right of free speech. Israel has lobbied the U.S. State Department to redefine anti-Semitism under a three-point test known as the Three Ds: the making of statements that “demonize” Israel; statements that apply “double standards” for Israel; statements that “delegitimize” the state of Israel. This definition of anti-Semitism is being pushed by the Israel lobby in state legislatures and on college campuses. The Israel lobby spies in the United States, often at the direction of Israel’s Ministry of Strategic Affairs, on those who speak up for the rights of Palestinians. It wages public smear campaigns and blacklists defenders of Palestinian rights–including the Jewish historian Norman Finkelstein; U.N. Special Rapporteur for the Occupied Territories, Richard Falk, also Jewish; and university students, many of them Jewish, in organizations such as Students for Justice in Palestine.

The Israel lobby has spent hundreds of millions of dollars to manipulate U.S. elections, far beyond anything alleged to have been carried out by Russia, China or any other country. The heavy-handed interference by Israel in the American political system, which includes operatives and donors bundling together hundreds of thousands of dollars in campaign contributions in every U.S. congressional district to bankroll compliant candidates, is documented in the Al-Jazeera four-part series “The Lobby.” Israel managed to block “The Lobby” from being broadcast. In the film, a pirated copy that is available on the website Electronic Intifada, the leaders of the Israel lobby are repeatedly captured on a reporter’s hidden camera explaining how they, backed by the intelligence services within Israel, attack and silence American critics and use massive cash donations to buy politicians. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu secured the unconstitutional invitation by then-House Speaker John Boehner to address Congress in 2015 to denounce President Barack Obama’s Iranian nuclear agreement. Netanyahu’s open defiance of Obama and alliance with the Republican Party, however, did not stop Obama in 2014 from authorizing a 10-year $38 billion military aid package to Israel, a sad commentary on how captive American politics is to Israeli interests.

The investment by Israel and is backers is worth it, especially when you consider that the U.S. has also spent over $ 6 trillion during the last 20 years fighting futile wars that Israel and its lobby pushed for in the Middle East. These wars are the greatest strategic debacle in American history, accelerating the decline of the American empire, bankrupting the nation at a time of economic stagnation and mounting poverty, and turning huge parts of the globe against us. They serve Israel’s interests, not ours.

The longer the mendacious Israeli narrative is embraced, the more empowered become the racists, bigots, conspiracy theorists and far-right hate groups inside and outside Israel. This steady shift to the far right in Israel has fostered an alliance between Israel and the Christian right, many of whom are anti-Semites. The more Israel and the Israel lobby level the charge of anti-Semitism against those who speak up for Palestinian rights, as they did against British Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn, the more they embolden the real anti-Semites.

Racism, including anti-Semitism, is dangerous. It is not only bad for the Jews. It is bad for everyone. It empowers the dark forces of ethnic and religious hatred on the extremes. Netanyahu’s racist government has built alliances with far-right leaders in Hungary, India, and Brazil, and was closely allied with Donald Trump. Racists and ethnic chauvinists, as I saw in the wars in the former Yugoslavia, feed off of each other. They divide societies into polarized, antagonistic camps that only speak in the language of violence. The radical jihadists need Israel to justify their violence, just as Israel needs the radical jihadists to justify its violence. These extremists are ideological twins.

This polarization fosters a fearful, militarized society. It permits the ruling elites in Israel, as in the United States, to dismantle civil liberties in the name of national security. Israel runs training programs for militarized police, including from the United States. It is a global player in the multibillion-dollar drone industry, competing against China and the United States.

It oversees hundreds of cybersurveillance startups whose espionage innovations, according to the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, have been utilized abroad “to locate and detain human rights activists, persecute members of the LGBT community, silence citizens critical of their governments, and even fabricate cases of blasphemy against Islam in Muslim countries that don’t maintain formal relations with Israel.”

Israel, like the United States, has been poisoned by the psychosis of permanent war. One million Israelis, many of them among the most enlightened and educated, have left the country. Its most courageous human rights campaigners, intellectuals and journalists—Israeli and Palestinian—endure constant government surveillance, arbitrary arrests and vicious government-run smear campaigns. Mobs and vigilantes, including thugs from right-wing youth groups such as Im Tirtzu, physically assault dissidents, Palestinians, Israeli Arabs and African immigrants in the slums of Tel Aviv. These Jewish extremists have targeted Palestinians in the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood, demanding their expulsion. They are supported by an array of anti-Arab groups including the Otzma Yehudit Party, the ideological descendant of the outlawed Kach party, the Lehava movement, which calls for all Palestinians in Israel and the occupied territories to be expelled to surrounding Arab states, and La Familia, far-right soccer hooligans. Lehava in Hebrew means “flame” and is the acronym for “Prevention of Assimilation in the Holy Land.” Mobs of these Jewish fanatics parade through Palestinian neighborhoods, including in occupied East Jerusalem, protected by Israeli police, shouting to the Palestinians who live there “Death to the Arabs,” which is also a popular chant at Israeli soccer matches.

Israel has pushed through a series of discriminatory laws against non-Jews that echo the racist Nuremberg Laws that disenfranchised Jews in Nazi Germany. The Communities Acceptance Law, for example, permits “small, exclusively Jewish towns planted across Israel’s Galilee region to formally reject applicants for residency on the grounds of ‘suitability to the community’s fundamental outlook.” Israel’s educational system, starting in primary school, uses the Holocaust to portray Jews as eternal victims. This victimhood is an indoctrination machine used to justify racism, Islamophobia, religious chauvinism and the deification of the Israeli military.

There are many parallels between the deformities that grip Israel and the deformities that grip the United States. The two countries are moving at warp speed towards a 21rst century fascism, cloaked in religious language, which will revoke what remains of our civil liberties and snuff out our anemic democracies. The failure of the United States to stand up for the rule of law, to demand that the Palestinians, powerless and friendless, even in the Arab world, be granted basic human rights mirrors the abandonment of the vulnerable within our own society. We are headed, I fear, down the road Israel is heading down. It will be devastating for the Palestinians. It will be devastating for us. And all resistance, as the Palestinians courageously show us, will only come from the street.

Hedges is one of my favorite scholars.
 

wigglee

Well-known member
Oct 13, 2010
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Every few years, Israel takes out the Palestinians' infrastructure. They like to keep them in the stone age with no water, electricity or sewers. They also like to expropriate Palestinians from their homes which played a large part in this current uprising. Of course the mighty Israelis have doubled their kill ratio from the previously targeted 10 to 1 ratio to 20 to 1. State terrorism funded by the USA. How humane!
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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Every few years, Israel takes out the Palestinians' infrastructure. They like to keep them in the stone age with no water, electricity or sewers. They also like to expropriate Palestinians from their homes which played a large part in this current uprising. Of course the mighty Israelis have doubled their kill ratio from the previously targeted 10 to 1 ratio to 20 to 1. State terrorism funded by the USA. How humane!
Yes, but this time the 'mowing the grass' looks like its pushing Palestinians onto the global wave started by BLM.
There are global protests, protests in South Korea and all across Canada and NA.

Korean protest with apartheid sign.


 
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toguy5252

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Jun 22, 2009
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Every few years, Israel takes out the Palestinians' infrastructure. They like to keep them in the stone age with no water, electricity or sewers. They also like to expropriate Palestinians from their homes which played a large part in this current uprising. Of course the mighty Israelis have doubled their kill ratio from the previously targeted 10 to 1 ratio to 20 to 1. State terrorism funded by the USA. How humane!

No in fact every few years Hamas provokes Israel in order to keep itself relevant. the outcome is always the same. Hamas gets pummeled,. innocent Palestinians pay the price, a ceasefire is called, Iran restocks Hamas, life goes on in Israel and the legitimate sovereign aspirations of the Palestinian people remain unanswered. Sad.
 
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danmand

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Nov 28, 2003
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No in fact every few years Hamas provokes Israel in order to keep itself relevant. the outcome is always the same. Hamas gets pummeled,. innocent Palestinians pay the price, a ceasefire is called, Iran restocks Hamas, life goes on in Israel and the legitimate sovereign aspirations of the Palestinian people remain unanswered. Sad.
You forgot that Israel every year evicts more Palestinians from their homes in both Israel and the occupied territories in order to make room for Israeli settlers.

What do ypu think Palestinians should do about that?
 
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Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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No in fact every few years Hamas provokes Israel in order to keep itself relevant. the outcome is always the same. Hamas gets pummeled,. innocent Palestinians pay the price, a ceasefire is called, Iran restocks Hamas, life goes on in Israel and the legitimate sovereign aspirations of the Palestinian people remain unanswered. Sad.
You're repeating part of the Big Lie.

How to Stop Apartheid Israel
South Africans, along with international humanity, raise the battle cry Mayihlome in solidarity with the Palestinian people's just resistance—our anger rises for the battle. There can be no neutrality in the fight for freedom and justice.
 
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silentkisser

Master of Disaster
Jun 10, 2008
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This whole situation is a mess. The Palestinians are treated like third class garbage. Israel sure acts like an apartheid state. I don't blame the Palestinians from being angry. They got booted from their homes years ago, and still get treated horribly. Shit, they are still getting booted from their homes.

Israel endured savage terror attacks for years. They are surrounded by states who would like to see them erased from the map. That must colour their response. They must see Gaza and the west bank as areas where they can be attacked.

Regardless, I don't think you can "both sides" this. No matter how bad Hamas is, Israel are basically holding the Palestinian's in the world's largest open-air prison.

Being critical of Israel is not anti-Semitic. But they are handling this horribly, and popular opinion is shifting strongly. Lord knows how it will end, but I'm sure the number of Palestinian casualties will be much, much higher than Israel.
 

toguy5252

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2009
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You forgot that Israel every year evicts more Palestinians from their homes in both Israel and the occupied territories in order to make room for Israeli settlers.

What do ypu think Palestinians should do about that?
I agree that it is wrong. What i think the Palestinians should do is what they should have done 60 years ago. Make a deal. Diplomacy is the art of the doable. By continuing to make demands which are not doable they are guaranteeing that they will be in the same position 60 years from now. BOTH sides haver to make very had concessions. Bibi is the wrong PM and Abbas is weak and has no ability to deliver. Hamas is just a periodic irritant fighting for relevancy. The PA leadership has been selling its people a pipe dream for 60 years. the so-called right if return does not exist in law and will NEVER happen. This has nothing to do with fairness or anything else. it is just an intractable fact. The sooner Palestinians and Israelis get real the sooner a deal will be done. Regrettably I am not optimistic.
 

danmand

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2003
46,358
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I agree that it is wrong. What i think the Palestinians should do is what they should have done 60 years ago. Make a deal. Diplomacy is the art of the doable. By continuing to make demands which are not doable they are guaranteeing that they will be in the same position 60 years from now. BOTH sides haver to make very had concessions. Bibi is the wrong PM and Abbas is weak and has no ability to deliver. Hamas is just a periodic irritant fighting for relevancy. The PA leadership has been selling its people a pipe dream for 60 years. the so-called right if return does not exist in law and will NEVER happen. This has nothing to do with fairness or anything else. it is just an intractable fact. The sooner Palestinians and Israelis get real the sooner a deal will be done. Regrettably I am not optimistic.
I agree with most of what you are saying. I do think that the unconditional support from USA is as much a problem for reaching a deal as the Palestinian lack of leadership.
 

toguy5252

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2009
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I agree with most of what you are saying. I do think that the unconditional support from USA is as much a problem for reaching a deal as the Palestinian lack of leadership.
I agree that the lopsided support shown by the now former worst negotiator on earth, was not productive and that a more nuanced response is called for. But it is also a fact that thinking that sending 3000+ rockets into Israel which Hamas tries every few years and which always has the same impact on a resolution, namely zero, is insane and simply feeds the people like Frankie etc.
 

richaceg

Well-known member
Feb 11, 2009
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I agree with most of what you are saying. I do think that the unconditional support from USA is as much a problem for reaching a deal as the Palestinian lack of leadership.
All the chess pieces in this situation is chaotic...
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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I agree that it is wrong. What i think the Palestinians should do is what they should have done 60 years ago. Make a deal. Diplomacy is the art of the doable. By continuing to make demands which are not doable they are guaranteeing that they will be in the same position 60 years from now. BOTH sides haver to make very had concessions. Bibi is the wrong PM and Abbas is weak and has no ability to deliver. Hamas is just a periodic irritant fighting for relevancy. The PA leadership has been selling its people a pipe dream for 60 years. the so-called right if return does not exist in law and will NEVER happen. This has nothing to do with fairness or anything else. it is just an intractable fact. The sooner Palestinians and Israelis get real the sooner a deal will be done. Regrettably I am not optimistic.
That's not too far off. Its true Palestinian governments have been corrupt and inept, though you do put too much blame on Palestinians for not settling when its pretty apparent that the long term goal of the state of Israel has been colonizing as much of Palestine as possible through 'facts on the ground' while they used peace talks like the Oslo Accords to stall while they put more settlers in Palestine. The closest there ever was to a deal was Olmert's napkin offer, and the Palestine Papers show that Abbas gave Olmert everything he asked for yet still that deal never happened.

Its the occupying power that decides when the occupation is over, not the victims.

Ben Gurion, Olmert and Barak all warned that if they didn't settle for the two state solution and create a state of Palestine then Israel will be identified as apartheid and suffer from the inevitable sanctions that follow.
Israel's own leaders, their press, NA Jews, everyone has seen this coming yet here we are.

So whining that Palestine should have settled 60 years ago is spilt milk and now you've blown it.
Israel is apartheid, the reports say it, the dems are saying it, the NDP says it and public opinion is saying it.

 
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toguy5252

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Jun 22, 2009
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That's not too far off. Its true Palestinian governments have been corrupt and inept, though you do put too much blame on Palestinians for not settling when its pretty apparent that the long term goal of the state of Israel has been colonizing as much of Palestine as possible through 'facts on the ground' while they used peace talks like the Oslo Accords to stall while they put more settlers in Palestine. The closest there ever was to a deal was Olmert's napkin offer, and the Palestine Papers show that Abbas gave Olmert everything he asked for yet still that deal never happened.

Its the occupying power that decides when the occupation is over, not the victims.

Ben Gurion, Olmert and Barak all warned that if they didn't settle for the two state solution and create a state of Palestine then Israel will be identified as apartheid and suffer from the inevitable sanctions that follow.
Israel's own leaders, their press, NA Jews, everyone has seen this coming yet here we are.

So whining that Palestine should have settled 60 years ago is spilt milk and now you've blown it.
Israel is apartheid, the reports say it, the dems are saying it, the NDP says it and public opinion is saying it.

And hence we will be having this conversation in another 60 years.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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And hence we will be having this conversation in another 60 years.
You really don't have any realistic way forward, do you?
Did you argue to settle for the two state solution through the years or just back the slow creation of apartheid Israel?
What do you really think happens now that the anti-apartheid campaign starts?
 

toguy5252

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2009
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You really don't have any realistic way forward, do you?
Did you argue to settle for the two state solution through the years or just back the slow creation of apartheid Israel?
What do you really think happens now that the anti-apartheid campaign starts?
No point is attempting discussion when all you do is spout clichés.
 

danmand

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2003
46,358
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I agree that the lopsided support shown by the now former worst negotiator on earth, was not productive and that a more nuanced response is called for. But it is also a fact that thinking that sending 3000+ rockets into Israel which Hamas tries every few years and which always has the same impact on a resolution, namely zero, is insane and simply feeds the people like Frankie etc.
It is not only Trump and Kushner, all American President has only one response to the problem: "Israel has the right to defend herself"

Of course, sending homemade rockets against the IDF is not very clever, but what else can the Palestinians do? The ethnic cleaning is moving ahead, and when the Palestinians demonstrate, they are mauled.

USA has supported the rapid expansion of the settlements, destruction of Palestinian homes and evictions. Do the Palestinians have a right to defend themselves also?

My Jewish friend explained to me why the state of Israel was necessary: Then we have a state with an army, and these things(progroms) will never happen again." The Palestinians need a home state also.
 

toguy5252

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2009
15,971
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It is not only Trump and Kushner, all American President has only one response to the problem: "Israel has the right to defend herself"

Of course, sending homemade rockets against the IDF is not very clever, but what else can the Palestinians do? The ethnic cleaning is moving ahead, and when the Palestinians demonstrate, they are mauled.

USA has supported the rapid expansion of the settlements, destruction of Palestinian homes and evictions. Do the Palestinians have a right to defend themselves also?

My Jewish friend explained to me why the state of Israel was necessary: Then we have a state with an army, and these things(progroms) will never happen again." The Palestinians need a home state also.
I agree with most of what you say including that the Palestinians need and deserve a homeland. But that homeland or state is not within the present borders of Israel. Most Palestinians believe that, and recognize that. the leaders do not and continue to sell the dream of return to Israel proper which will never happen. People can debate the fairness and whether or not Israel is apartheid or racist or whatever until the end of time but it will not change the facts. Until both Palestinians and Israelis are ready to make the hard compromises this cycle will continue but the periodic barrages by Hamas and their friends really do nothing other than increase the suffering of the Palestinian people.
 
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