Israel, the Big Lie
- Thread starter oil&gas
- Start date
I thought I was being Frank, but ok, you can take a turn.
As I keep saying, nobody there trusts the other or the idea that peace talks can happen.
So it needs to just be international, sanctions like the ones that ended South African Apartheid.
I think you are being too snug now. It has not worked for the Palestinians, but you must admit that it has not worked for Israel either.
I never thought popular opinions in Europe would turn against Israel, but that is what is happening as we discuss who is to blame for the hostilities.
We do not need to agree who is to blame, it is clear that both sides are losers.
I was not intending to be or sound smug. It is just an observation of the facts on the ground. I have been to Israel and the west Bank many times. The difference in the 2 is stark and I am guessing worse in Gaza. Israel has built a thriving very successful country regardless of what you think of its origins. In the exact same period and from many years before the Palestinians could have build something in the West bank and Gaza. And please don't tell me about how Israel has kept them down. Look at the hundreds of billions of dollars that has gone into its fight with Israel that could have gone into schools and infrastructure etc. and the net effect of all those billions of dollars is that Israel has continued to encroach on what should be a vibrant and sovereign Palestine. And none of the foregoing has anything at all about casting blame.
Al Qaeda crashed 2 planes in the US that resulted to Afghanistan decimated almost into rubble for their troubles...there are consequences to war crimes...for every action there is a reaction...
Israel is the biggest recipient of US aid, not Palestine, including $3.8 billion annual US weapons.
Google the tiktok and snapchat videos comparing Israel to Gaza through location available video and then enjoy the brutality and economic hardships of your settler colonialism they way kids are looking at it today.
You've been there, but not Gaza and I bet not off of apartheid roads or apartheid settlements.
You should know better.
Yeah, a group of Saudis did that but they invaded Afghanistan instead and the Saudis are still big allies.
So sure, Afghanistan paid heavily for Saudi/Al Qaeda war crimes there.
Meanwhile.
People of conscience: Palestinians ask you to boycott Israel | Omar Barghouti
Inspired by the South African anti-apartheid struggle, the nonviolent BDS movement needs your support, writes BDS co-founder Omar Barghouti
www.theguardian.com
You should probably try and deal with facts. i know it is sometimes inconvenient. the Palestinians have received hundred and hundreds of billions of dollars of aid. You are right that I have not been to Gaza and I have no doubt that in many areas the conditions are terrible. Perhaps the millions of cubic feet of concrete that has used to build tunnels could have been used to build schools or hospitals Or homes. Maybe all the money spent on rockets could have been used to improve the lives of its people.
And you are of course wrong. I have been to the apartments of people in the West bank and to many restaurants. the people want a better life for themselves and their children. They will never get it from their current leaser or Hamas or people that think like you and your friend the clown by whatever name he chooses to go.
I am not surprised that Israel has done well in the former Palestine. Jews put emphasis on education, were fully committed to the creation of Israel and had enormous goodwill and support coming from Europe and USA. From that point of view it is a success story.
What I was pointing out is that the continuing situation with expansion of settlements, hostilities and punishment of the Palestinians is bad for Israel. Who wants to live in a country in perpetual crisis? My friend , who has been there many times, and who sent his children there on the IJC program, told me that he would pack up and leave if he lived there. There are no winners, both Palestinians and Israel is losing.
I personally think that as the strongest of the two "partners" it behoves Israel to find a solution, even as I agree that the Palestinians lacks leadership.
So when Hamas fires some rockets, what should Israel do in your opinion if they have info the rocket installations were fired at close proximity to a hospital? a school? It looks like the best option is send ground troops instead of firing back rockets...ground troops can better identify legit targets...Yeah, a group of Saudis did that but they invaded Afghanistan instead and the Saudis are still big allies.
So sure, Afghanistan paid heavily for Saudi/Al Qaeda war crimes there.
Meanwhile.
People of conscience: Palestinians ask you to boycott Israel | Omar Barghouti
Inspired by the South African anti-apartheid struggle, the nonviolent BDS movement needs your support, writes BDS co-founder Omar Barghouti
The facts are that there is 50% unemployment in Gaza, electricity works only a few hours a day and the 14 year long illegal blockade has left 10% of the children of Gaza permanently stunted. When the WHO reported this Israel banned them from Gaza just like they destroyed 13 media outlets now, along with 6 hospitals and 50 damaged schools.
Palestinians live under apartheid rule while Israel continues to use settler colonization to take more of their land.
So sure, there has been millions of aid for Palestinians while they live under 53 years of occupation and apartheid rule. That's still pennies compared to the billions Israel receives and it shows in stats.
Canada now has a moral duty to stand up against apartheid and boycott Israel.
Yes, Franky. Canada has moral duty to stand with Hamas and Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah and Iran because the end justifies the means. So what they will slaughter the Jewish Israelis? We can always build them a nice memorial in Ottawa, but the Palestinians will finally be free.
I agree with everything you say including that Israel has a responsibility to attempt, in good faith, tp find a solution and a resolution. i do not think that Bibi is the right leader to achieve that but he is definitely the right leader, at least in the minds of most Israelis, in a time of crisis like this. Hamas is the reason that he has any support and they are keeping him in office while achieving nothing la Rockets from Gaza and now Lebanon make it harder to make those compromises not easier. but it needs a partner for peace. Hamas is clearly not such a partner and Abbas although i believe he is sincere is weak and cannot deliver. so the cycle will go on until there are 2 other leaders who can make a deal. come along.
Most Israelis (other than the religious which is a whole other problem) understand that there will have to be very hard and unpopular compromises, including Jerusalem and settlements. Abbas, probably because he fears for his life has drawn certain lines in the sand which will simply never be realized. as much as people there have been sold on the phony so-called right of return it will never happen. The people who have always fought for the destruction of Israel, now having realized that they cannot win by violence hope to achieve the same end demographically. This will NEVER happen. And do the cycle continues.
Most Israelis have lost a loved one or someone they know. It is an incredible country that has learned to thrive in the face of adversity. Anyone who thinks that threats by Hamas or the ICC or BDS or calling it apartheid will do anything other than strengthen their resolve and harden feelings and therefore any prospect of compromise simply does not understand the Israeli mentality. Israel has thrived and Jews have survived for centuries in the face of conquests, persecutions, a holocaust and more. this has nothing to do with victimhood. it has everything to do with resolve.
No, Canada has a moral duty to support taking Hamas and Israel's leaders to the ICC.
We also have a moral duty to support the end of apartheid in Israel.
De-escalate, jc, stop killing people.
What are you really going to do, kill them all or kill them into submission?
Support peace and equal rights, its gonna happen eventually, you might as well join the party.
End apartheid.
That's a much more reasonable post, toguy. But you still miss the point, though yes, the losses on both sides are horrid even if you are unwilling to recognize that they are 10-20x worse on the other side.
Israel has had 53 years to find a solution, only 12% of both Israelis and Palestinians think Israel's goal right now is the two state solution.
Which is why BDS and the anti-apartheid movement are left to make the changes Israel refuses to do themselves.
If Israel won't change, the world will have to make it change.
End apartheid.
Why don't you fly down and cross into Gaza to persuade the Hamas to stop raining rockets on the Israelis? I guarantee you that Israel will stop firing, too. Then we can have a conversation. Until then you're just another terrorists apologist. And those are penny a pound.
