You have yet to tell us how voting for Biden will help change the system or what your plan is to change the system.
I've noted multiple ways I've supported changing the system, you have dismissed all of them and proposed nothing.
Why?
Israel at war
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I've noted multiple ways I've supported changing the system, you have dismissed all of them and proposed nothing.
Why?
Wow, I'm truly shocked at how politically naive you are with this post.
Your post infers you believe that Biden is somehow holding back the genocide and slowing it down, as if Biden's continual statements saying he supports a ceasefire and the two state solution are actually honest. As if those statements were followed by even the simplest actions. Every move by Biden so far has been to try to publicly show he is for peace while ever legislative move has been to arm and enable the genocide.
Short of sending in US bombers and nukes, there is little that rump could do that would be worse in the support of this genocide.
Biden has been trying to play both sides throughout, to publicly declare he's for peace while blocking all actions that can stop the genocide. Trump isn't smart enough to pull that off and doesn't care about issues other than his own fortune and popularity. He would have likely dropped support for Israel after the protests the way he dropped support for vaccines after his base became anti vaxxers.
You mean minorities and youth?
You mean progressive dems?
What you have been doing is watching Biden's reelection chances become worse and worse so keep trying to convince people that rump is worse than genocide. That its 'pragmatic' to support genocide because of your fear of what rump might do with a second presidency.
What you have not done is to admit that Biden's support of Israel is wrong, that the party needs to change and how to change it. Even though you have admitted that Israel is likely committing genocide you have not said that they are wrong to do so and the US is wrong to aid the genocide of Gaza.
Meanwhile, people are doing what they can.
zionists continue to act like nazis.
How exactly is Trump going to make it worse than it already is? Israel has no restraints. There is a genocide. What is worse than genocide? More genocide of an ongoing genocide that is not being stopped?
And where did you figure that I thought that the US has no power to affect the Israel situation? My criticism is exactly that. That while the US is in the unique position to influence how things unfold in Israel/Palestine, and perhaps is the only country that can influence how things unfold in Israel/Palestine, they are doing absolutely nothing substantial to help the Palestinian cause.
The differences between Trump and Biden, are either in rhetoric or in something as minor as humanitarian aid or stopping delivery of some bombs under a very narrow criteria, while vetoing everything in the UN and providing support and protection for Israel. These look like differences but are merely talking points. They have absolutely no tangible impact. Heck even a ceasefire is not able to be achieved.
Be it Trump or Biden, the following 2 statements will be true:
a) Israel will receive and continue to receive BILLIONS in military aid.
b) The US will always protect Israel at the UN and the international stage, thereby enabling their brutalization of the Palestinians.
To me, it is a difference, if Biden would vote AGAINST Israel at the UN. Or had Biden not abstained from recognizing Palestinian statehood. Or had Biden not vetoed full membership for Palestine. Would Trump have done anything different?
You are flouting some inconsequential, lip service and gestures as "differences in policy". It means nothing!
No it wouldn't. A voter votes per their conscience. They do not vote, to elect a guy, that is the lesser of two evils, when that guy is going to do nothing for the issue that you hold as most important. Now others, for whom this is not such a big issue may take the approach you are suggesting, but again, they are still voting their conscience. Everybody is always voting their conscience.
Yes. And the effect is that BOTH Trump and Biden, LOST a vote. I don't know why you have a problem admitting that.
This is your characterization. Not the objective truth.
If the statement "I am so anti-Biden, that I am OK with Trump winning" is true of a 3rd party vote, then so is the statement "I am so anti-Trump that I am OK with Biden winning", because that is what is objectively happening. Both Trump and Biden are losing a vote helping the other. Biden is not entitled a vote by this voter who voted third party.
Because a third party vote, needs to be seen objectively, because there IS a candidate expressing political opinions and not as a spiteful fallback option exercised by the voter.
I mean if you could make the argument that the voter would have voted for Biden, if not for the Israel Palestine issue, then you could make the same argument that a Biden voter would have voted for Trump if not for Trump's positions on race, immigration or what have you. You could pretty much make that argument about any candidate. The truth is that political positions of the candidate, sway votes. You could agree to varying degrees with different candidates, but there are certain issues that will always sway the voter more than the others, one way or another.
This is like saying my vote for Mitzie Hunter in the mayor election, is anti-Chow, but pro-Saunders. No, it is anti-Chow, anti-Saunders, anti-anybodyelsethatran, but pro-Hunter.
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How am I "rewarding" Biden for this choice?
That only makes sense if you don't view the election as a choice between two options, but as a "reward/punish" structure.
Which I don't, because it is a very stupid way to view elections.
Voting for Biden won't change the system.
The voting part isn't about changing the system.
That pressure happens outside and through other venues.
Only when you've got some leverage and action via the other methods of civic action is voting going to come into play because you need a government to implement those changes.
Civil Rights was a massive change to the system - it wasn't won by voting first, then producing change.
It was won by pushing for change and then voting for governments who would support that change.
It's like labor activism - the primary mode is through labor action, but it the government aligns with corporations to crush strikes, then that labor action is doomed.
So no you don't get the system changed firstly through voting, but voting is an important part of what goes on.
Because this is a discussion about why "Making sure Biden loses" or "Voting third party to teach the Dems a lesson" isn't about changing the system.
That will do nothing at all to change the electoral system.
It certainly isn't about changing foreign policy or helping the Palestinians.
Even on your most anti-Biden rants, you can't say putting Trump into power will improve anything about any of the issues you claim to care about here.
I mean exactly what I said I mean.
You yourself have admitted that voting Trump in doesn't stop the genocide or affect it in any way.
Therefore, obviously, by your own calculation - this isn't a vote between "Trump or Genocide".
If that is what you truly believe, then the only reason to not vote Biden (if you think the Genocide is the only issue anyone should vote on) is to punish Biden for being president during the genocide.
Since you yourself admit nothing changes by doing this, then you are stating - quite clearly - that punishing Biden is more important than anything Trump will do as President.
You did, for a while, try to pitch the "We don't know the future so maybe Trump will be better about Israel/Palestine" argument.
You seem to have abandoned that, though.
My question to you, again and again, has been what helping Trump win gains you - even if the only issue in the world you care about is the Israel-Palestine situation.
My answer to that is "nothing" - it gains you absolutely nothing outside of an emotional satisfaction in "not supporting genocide" or the emotional satisfaction of "making Biden lose".
That would only apply if Trump was offering a better deal on Israel Palestine.
Then my choice would be "Do I support genocide to keep Trump out of power or not".
But since Trump isn't offering to do better - in fact he is saying the US isn't supporting Israel enough (and his past history involves cutting off humanitarian aid and no longer classifying settlements as illegal and other actions showing he is likely to follow through on the "we should do more to help the Israeli right wing's ambitions"). So therefore there is no "It is pragmatic to support genocide because of fear of what a Trump administration will do". The genocide is completely off the table in the election.
So again, even if the ONLY ISSUE I CARE ABOUT is the genocide, there is no reason to help Trump win.
I have repeatedly said his policy is wrong, in fact it is indefensible.
What I have said is that voting third party and putting Trump into power will not change it.
I get that it really upsets you that things don't work that way, but you pouting doesn't
Another reason you support making sure Biden loses and putting Trump in charge, I suppose, since he has promised to crack down on people dong this in the US.
Trump Plan for Pro-Palestinian Protesters: “Throw Them Out of the Country”
Trump made clear to wealthy donors behind closed doors that he won’t draw any red lines on Gaza if reelected—as Biden struggles to make clear what his red line is.www.vanityfair.com
“If you get me elected, and you should really be doing this … we’re going to set that movement back 25 or 30 years,” Trump said
You think this is Israel with no restraints?
Dear god.
Because you just said that "Degree of support, etc are either inconsequential and minor, or are purely rhetoric and talking points that do not result in changes to the status quo that is very much needed."
In other words, there is nothing that can be done.
Then you should be EXTREMELY interested in every shift in degree of support, since it has such an important impact.
Humanitarian aid is minor now?
Nothing has tangible impact?
Interesting how the people on the ground there seem to disagree with you so completely.
So therefore no one should be voting between Biden or Trump based on Gaza.
Got it.
On those two specific votes?
No.
Which, if you think those the only two things that have any impact on Gaza, means you shouldn't let Gaza influence your vote between Trump or Biden in any way.
I get it!
You think there is no reason to use the Gaza situation to choose between Trump and Biden!
Anyone doing so is a fool!
You've made your point.
Idiot voters vote their conscience in a plurality system.
That's one of those politically naive myths told to voters so that they don't exercise power efficiently.
It's one of the worst things you can do since it is more likely to actively hurt your cause than help it.
What an amazingly self-defeating way to think about elections.
Oh.
You mean "voting their conscience" to mean "voting to get the best result they can"!
Then you agree with me about voting and we are back to "nothing I do will change this outcome I find important, so I should vote on other criteria".
Again, a strong argument that no one should vote on the Israel/Palestine issue at all.
Because as long as you fail to understand math, I have to point out what is actually going on.
It is true, sorry.
Yes, you've established you don't understand how the system works.
You don't need to dig your hole deeper.
Of course not.
Wait, you think a vote is "an expression of your opinions"?
Oh dear.
Of course the position of candidates sways votes and things sway the voter more than others.
That's the whole point of what we are discussing.
Oh, you REALLY don't understand how the plurality system works at all!
Which between Chow and Bailão did you prefer?
Man, I am going to have to do this "voting systems education series", aren't I?
sigh
Yet you were the one that brought up this language when you claimed it would be 'punishing' Biden to not vote for him just cuz he's aiding a genocide.
Yet you also don't propose any change to the system, are lukewarm at best to protests to change the system and seem to be against pressuring the party to back the progressives and enact change.
Biden losing over support for genocide will be part of long term change, you are focused entirely on the next 4 years.
So minorities, youth and progressives. Even if you won't name them.
Yet the possibility of Biden losing over aiding genocide might pressure him to stop before the election. Netanyahu is done and soon to be just a war criminal facing fraud charges at home. Zionism as a movement is now as loved as the KKK. The genocide continues but is down to starving children and bombing families living in tents as the move from one 'safe zone' to the next. I would wonder if even rump can support it now.
This is about the long game, letting rump win will force change in the dems. This is Biden's last election and watching the AIPAC/Bowman fight is a preview of how that money will look during November.
Zionism as a movement must be ended, the leaders taken to court and the occupation ended. That won't happen ever under Biden. He needs to go.
Your sole argument is that you think rump might be worse for the genocide.
its a genocide, it really can't get much worse.
Long term it may change that policy. In 2028 its a different discussion.
rump couldn't enact a Muslim ban and won't be able to enact this, even if its still going on in Nov.
He's senile and more worried about pardoning himself, a nice piece of chocolate cake and cheating at golf.
You think he'll be worse than this?
This is the result of Islamophobia.
www.ynetnews.com
Jewish American woman charged with attempted murder of Palestinian toddler
Elizabeth Wolf is suspected of attempting to drown a 3-year-old girl in Texas; Mother was able to pull her daughter from the water 'yelling for help and coughing up water'
www.ynetnews.com
Netanyahu wants to start another war since this one is going so badly.
