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Israel at war

Phil C. McNasty

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Dec 27, 2010
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Yes the only possible solution is a one state solution because Israel has illegally taken 95% of the lands. Palestinians rejected peace proposals because none of those peace proposals involve Israel giving BACK land especially in the West Bank. Not in Gaza. Lets not point to 2005. I am talking about the illegal settlements in the West Bank that makes up the majority of land area of Palestine. Israel takes land, and then expects the Palestinians to accept the NEW status quo. So none of their peace proposals are sincere or workable. This conflict will continue and the terrorism will continue until Israel either gives back land or gives Palestinians equal rights. The Palestinians are not going anywhere, neither are the Israelis
You couldnt be more wrong. Arafat in 2000 didnt even want to negotiate with Barak.
Even Clinton went on record saying he offered PLO over 95% of West Bank, and they still turned it down.

Also, in the video Clinton confirms Hamas hides amongst civilians and uses them as shields.
A fact which you have repeatedly denied (along with your other half baked theory that Hamas would never rape civilians)

A video from May 13, 2016, in Ewing Township in New Jersey, U.S has been doing rounds on social media where former US President Bill Clinton can he heard saying 'Hamas is really smart. When they decide to rocket Israel, they insinuate themselves in the hospitals, in the schools, in the highly populous areas.' 'I killed myself to give the Palestinians a state. I had a deal they turned down that would have given them all of Gaza... between 96 and 97% of the West Bank, compensating land in Israel, you name it.'
 

Phil C. McNasty

Go Jays Go
Dec 27, 2010
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Read this and learn something

 
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Dutch Oven

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Feb 12, 2019
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This conflict will continue and the terrorism will continue until Israel either gives back land or gives Palestinians equal rights.
Or enough people who think as poorly as you have died in in the conflict. That point might come sooner than you think.

There is no one state solution with a group who advocates your elimination from the region. What a ridiculous outlook it is to expect to be brought into the current century by those you say have no right to be there.
 

Phil C. McNasty

Go Jays Go
Dec 27, 2010
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The solution is either a one state solution or a 2 state solution going back to 1967 borders and removal of ALL settlements. Negotiating acceptance of land theft isnt going to be accepted and the Palestinians are not wrong in refusing such "deals"
You have to compromise in peace deals. Arafat refused to compromise.

Also I noticed you're conveniently not responding to Clinton's claim Hamas hides in hospitals, schools and highly populous areas .
Those were his exact words. Will you now admit you were wrong??
 

Klatuu

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Dec 31, 2022
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Or enough people who think as poorly as you have died in in the conflict. That point might come sooner than you think.

There is no one state solution with a group who advocates your elimination from the region. What a ridiculous outlook it is to expect to be brought into the current century by those you say have no right to be there.
Delusional. Poorly educated.
 

Dutch Oven

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Feb 12, 2019
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The solution is [edit] a 2 state solution going back to 1967 borders
So, give occupied land back to Jordan and Syria? What has that got to do with establishing a Palestinian state?
 

Dutch Oven

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Feb 12, 2019
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Delusional. Poorly educated.
You are unquestionably one of the goofiest posters we've had here in a while, and that's saying something! You are as truly "out there" and alien as your handle suggests! If this is all just a big gag, your level of commitment makes it hard to distinguish from legit lunacy. Maybe, in some perverse way, this might make it your "tour de force" portrayal of an unsound mind (like Jack Nicholson in The Shining). I guess you'll have to take your bows privately, as I don't expect you to break the 4th wall at this point.
 
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Phil C. McNasty

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And what makes you think Clinton's claims are trustworthy?. Did you forget that the US govt is bought and paid for?
I think most rational people will believe Clinton over Kautilya from Terb

And even if it were true did you forget Hamas are Palestinians who live in Gaza? And did you forget that per international law it is still a genocidal war crime to bomb hospitals or schools even if Hamas members hide there?
See, you're wrong again.
If an enemy fires as a little as one bullet from a school or hospital, those locations then become fair game.
Somebody posted the exact lettering of the Geneva Accord a few months ago, but I'm too lazy to search for it
 

Phil C. McNasty

Go Jays Go
Dec 27, 2010
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Don't take my word for it. Go read the AIPAC website and hear it from the horse's mouth.
I'll take Clinton's word over AIPAC

A proportionality analysis has to be done. If the military advantage gained by killing civilians along with say a few Hamas foot soldiers does not exceed civilian lives lost then it is a war crime.

DinkleMouse explained it. If Hitler was admitted in a hospital along with 1000 patients it wouldn't be a war crime to kill Hitler along with the 1000 patients because the military advantage gained is the END of WW2 with millions of lives saved.

What military advantage exists in killing a few Hamas foot soldiers when the leadership does not even live in Gaza? Nothing. Infact every attack creates more Hamas. Hence the advantage gained is in the negative. Hence war crime per international law. I am not even going to go into genocide for now. It is a war crime to start with
This is simply not true
 

canada-man

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Jun 16, 2007
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Toronto, Ontario
canadianmale.wordpress.com
The solution is either a one state solution or a 2 state solution going back to 1967 borders and removal of ALL settlements. Negotiating acceptance of land theft isnt going to be accepted and the Palestinians are not wrong in refusing such "deals".
The West Bank was part of Jordan and the Gaza strip part of Egypt before 1967
I agree give back those lands to Jordan and Egypt.
 

niniveh

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Jun 8, 2009
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MASSACRE AT NUSEIRAT

JUNE 14, 2024No Way Out in Nuseirat: the Great Hostage Rescue Massacre
BY JEFFREY ST. CLAIR
FacebookTwitterRedditEmail


Photo: UNRWA.
The Israelis usually make their abduction raids at night, when the streets are empty and their targets are sleeping. The raid on Nuseirat took place in mid-day at a refugee camp, when the roads and markets were packed with civilians, when children were playing, women doing their shopping, and old men drinking their tea.
Some of the Israelis came dressed as Palestinians, speaking Arabic, and looking like refugees. Some came concealed in civilian trucks. Others hovered above in Apache attack helicopters, waiting to strike.
The nearby Al-Aqsa Hospital was already overflowing with patients from the airstrikes of the previous few days, before it began receiving the wounded and maimed from the bloodiest day yet of Israel’s assault on Gaza. Al-Aqsa was already short on supplies, running low on drugs, water and power. The hospital’s hallways were already filled with moaning, bandaged patients, recovering from wounds and surgeries without painkillers. The staff was already overworked, tired and stressed out, when they heard the first explosions around 11 in the morning.
Dozens of airstrikes were followed by volleys of small arms gunfire and rocket-propelled grenades. Some explosions seemed very close to the hospital. Someone said the IDF had called the hospital minutes before and warned the staff to evacuate because it too was a target. But the nurses and the doctors wouldn’t leave their patients. Maybe it was disinformation or just another rumor of a hellish war.
Helicopters hovered overhead. Quadcopter drones darted in and out firing machine guns at the crowded streets. There was the unmistakable growl of tanks. The camp was surrounded. There was no way to flee. No air raid shelters to huddle in. No way out.
Then the calls came for help, soon followed by the wounded, the burnt, the dying and the dead. The bodies of children and women, the old and young, shredded by shrapnel, riven with bullets, some with severed limbs and others with perforated eyes.
“There were children everywhere, there were women, there were men,” said Karin Huster, who was working at Al-Aqsa with Médecins Sans Frontières. “We had the gamut of war wounds, trauma wounds, from amputations to eviscerations to trauma, to TBIs, traumatic brain injuries. Fractures, obviously, big burns. Kids completely grey or white from the shock, burnt, screaming for their parents — many of them not screaming because they are in shock.”
The tempo of the attack increased. The bombings and the gunfire and the tanks and the helicopters. The frenzied sounds of a war machine at full-throttle. For thirty minutes it went on. For an hour. For an hour and a half. It seemed interminable for those seeking shelter on the ground, cowering in buildings and the hospital. And then it was over, finally. And there were only the cries for help from the shattered streets and collapsed buildings. The cries of parents carrying dead children in their arms, the cries of children looking at the gutted bodies of their parents.
What had just happened? Why had this refugee camp at Nusierat, home of so many homeless people, so many Palestinian families who had been displaced by bombs time and time again, come under such a savage sustained attack from the air and the ground, an attack that destroyed 90 homes and apartment buildings? An attack of such fury that it left the streets scattered with severed arms and legs, the bodies of children and their mothers and grandfathers left to bleed out in the marketplace that seemed to be a target of the attack. What could possibly justify this slaughter, this killing, this destruction that one Palestinian refugee in Nuseirat said felt like “Doomsday”?
When the Israelis finally left, they took four people with them, four hostages who had been rescued by Israeli commandos and evacuated in helicopters that were stationed at or near Biden’s hapless “humanitarian” pier that had, coincidentally or not, just been reassembled and re-moored to the beach in central Gaza, after breaking apart in high seas last month.
When the Israelis finally left with the four rescued hostages, who’d been captured by Hamas on October 7 while attending the Nova rave just outside the Israeli security fence that pens in and isolates northern Gaza, they left behind 274 dead Palestinians, including 64 children and 57 women. They left behind 700 wounded, many in critical condition, many of whom seem likely to die in the coming days and weeks.
The great rescue mission turned into the worst massacre to date in Israel’s genocidal war on Gaza, leaving the streets of Nuseirat, in the words of Abu Asi, “halls of blood.” Everyone on the streets and inside the buildings of Nuseirat was a target that day. The gunfire and airstrikes were indiscriminate. Then entire camp was a kill zone.
Nuseirat’s narrow streets were cratered, so clotted with rubble and bodies that ambulances couldn’t reach the victims, many of whom were wheeled to the hospital in hand carts and wagons. Many more were left to die on the streets from treatable wounds.
“Aircraft struck dozens of military targets for the success of the operation,” the IDF brayed afterward. “Hamas, in a very cruel and cynical way, is holding hostages inside civilian buildings.”
The attack came without warning. It came in one of the most densely populated camps in Gaza. The commandos came in disguise, one group in a truck filled with beds and furniture, as if to mock the very refugees they were about to slaughter. This is a war crime. The crime of perfidy, an act of treacherous deception in which one side promises to act in good faith with the intention of breaking that promise once they encounter their enemy. There’s a reason soldiers wear uniforms in combat situations. It’s to protect civilians.
The Israelis said they came at mid-day as an element of surprise. But their own history of raids in Gaza and elsewhere says they usually come at night. This rescue operation was different. This rescue operation in broad daylight was designed to kill. To kill as many as possible, no matter who they were or what they were doing. To kill kids kicking soccer balls, young women standing in line at the bakery, and old men carrying bags of flour and rice. It even killed hostages.
“We inform you that in exchange for these, your army killed three prisoners in the same camp, one of whom held American citizenship,” the military wing of Hamas announced in a video released following the attack.
The Americans knew. The Americans helped. Did the CIA or Pentagon help with the targeting? It hardly matters. The Americans provided the bombs, the helicopters, the fighter jets, the bullets and the tank shells. The Americans watched the attack unfold. They watched from Biden’s pier. They watched from drones. They watched as the streets filled with blood, bodies and limbs. Afterward, the Americans praised the rescue operation and said nothing about the dead Palestinian children and women. Nothing about the amputees and the eviscerated. Nothing about the three hostages who were also apparently killed in the Israeli attack, including an American citizen.
The Biden administration’s complicity in the Nuseirat mass slaughter shatters the last pretense of American diplomacy in the Middle East. It’s a sinister calculus that justifies killing and wounding 1000 people to rescue four–four people who could have been released through a ceasefire, a ceasefire the Biden administration claims it wanted to broker.
The massacre at Nuseirat made clear once more that some lives are worth more than others. And to the Israelis and their American allies, at least, Palestinian lives don’t seem to be worth anything at all.
Jeffrey St. Clair is editor of CounterPunch. His most recent book is An Orgy of Thieves: Neoliberalism and Its Discontents (with Alexander Cockburn). He can be reached at: sitka@comcast.net or on Twitter @JeffreyStClair3.
 
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xmontrealer

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May 23, 2005
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MASSACRE AT NUSEIRAT

JUNE 14, 2024No Way Out in Nuseirat: the Great Hostage Rescue Massacre
BY JEFFREY ST. CLAIR
FacebookTwitterRedditEmail


Photo: UNRWA.
The Israelis usually make their abduction raids at night, when the streets are empty and their targets are sleeping. The raid on Nuseirat took place in mid-day at a refugee camp, when the roads and markets were packed with civilians, when children were playing, women doing their shopping, and old men drinking their tea.
Some of the Israelis came dressed as Palestinians, speaking Arabic, and looking like refugees. Some came concealed in civilian trucks. Others hovered above in Apache attack helicopters, waiting to strike.
The nearby Al-Aqsa Hospital was already overflowing with patients from the airstrikes of the previous few days, before it began receiving the wounded and maimed from the bloodiest day yet of Israel’s assault on Gaza. Al-Aqsa was already short on supplies, running low on drugs, water and power. The hospital’s hallways were already filled with moaning, bandaged patients, recovering from wounds and surgeries without painkillers. The staff was already overworked, tired and stressed out, when they heard the first explosions around 11 in the morning.
Dozens of airstrikes were followed by volleys of small arms gunfire and rocket-propelled grenades. Some explosions seemed very close to the hospital. Someone said the IDF had called the hospital minutes before and warned the staff to evacuate because it too was a target. But the nurses and the doctors wouldn’t leave their patients. Maybe it was disinformation or just another rumor of a hellish war.
Helicopters hovered overhead. Quadcopter drones darted in and out firing machine guns at the crowded streets. There was the unmistakable growl of tanks. The camp was surrounded. There was no way to flee. No air raid shelters to huddle in. No way out.
Then the calls came for help, soon followed by the wounded, the burnt, the dying and the dead. The bodies of children and women, the old and young, shredded by shrapnel, riven with bullets, some with severed limbs and others with perforated eyes.
“There were children everywhere, there were women, there were men,” said Karin Huster, who was working at Al-Aqsa with Médecins Sans Frontières. “We had the gamut of war wounds, trauma wounds, from amputations to eviscerations to trauma, to TBIs, traumatic brain injuries. Fractures, obviously, big burns. Kids completely grey or white from the shock, burnt, screaming for their parents — many of them not screaming because they are in shock.”
The tempo of the attack increased. The bombings and the gunfire and the tanks and the helicopters. The frenzied sounds of a war machine at full-throttle. For thirty minutes it went on. For an hour. For an hour and a half. It seemed interminable for those seeking shelter on the ground, cowering in buildings and the hospital. And then it was over, finally. And there were only the cries for help from the shattered streets and collapsed buildings. The cries of parents carrying dead children in their arms, the cries of children looking at the gutted bodies of their parents.
What had just happened? Why had this refugee camp at Nusierat, home of so many homeless people, so many Palestinian families who had been displaced by bombs time and time again, come under such a savage sustained attack from the air and the ground, an attack that destroyed 90 homes and apartment buildings? An attack of such fury that it left the streets scattered with severed arms and legs, the bodies of children and their mothers and grandfathers left to bleed out in the marketplace that seemed to be a target of the attack. What could possibly justify this slaughter, this killing, this destruction that one Palestinian refugee in Nuseirat said felt like “Doomsday”?
When the Israelis finally left, they took four people with them, four hostages who had been rescued by Israeli commandos and evacuated in helicopters that were stationed at or near Biden’s hapless “humanitarian” pier that had, coincidentally or not, just been reassembled and re-moored to the beach in central Gaza, after breaking apart in high seas last month.
When the Israelis finally left with the four rescued hostages, who’d been captured by Hamas on October 7 while attending the Nova rave just outside the Israeli security fence that pens in and isolates northern Gaza, they left behind 274 dead Palestinians, including 64 children and 57 women. They left behind 700 wounded, many in critical condition, many of whom seem likely to die in the coming days and weeks.
The great rescue mission turned into the worst massacre to date in Israel’s genocidal war on Gaza, leaving the streets of Nuseirat, in the words of Abu Asi, “halls of blood.” Everyone on the streets and inside the buildings of Nuseirat was a target that day. The gunfire and airstrikes were indiscriminate. Then entire camp was a kill zone.
Nuseirat’s narrow streets were cratered, so clotted with rubble and bodies that ambulances couldn’t reach the victims, many of whom were wheeled to the hospital in hand carts and wagons. Many more were left to die on the streets from treatable wounds.
“Aircraft struck dozens of military targets for the success of the operation,” the IDF brayed afterward. “Hamas, in a very cruel and cynical way, is holding hostages inside civilian buildings.”
The attack came without warning. It came in one of the most densely populated camps in Gaza. The commandos came in disguise, one group in a truck filled with beds and furniture, as if to mock the very refugees they were about to slaughter. This is a war crime. The crime of perfidy, an act of treacherous deception in which one side promises to act in good faith with the intention of breaking that promise once they encounter their enemy. There’s a reason soldiers wear uniforms in combat situations. It’s to protect civilians.
The Israelis said they came at mid-day as an element of surprise. But their own history of raids in Gaza and elsewhere says they usually come at night. This rescue operation was different. This rescue operation in broad daylight was designed to kill. To kill as many as possible, no matter who they were or what they were doing. To kill kids kicking soccer balls, young women standing in line at the bakery, and old men carrying bags of flour and rice. It even killed hostages.
“We inform you that in exchange for these, your army killed three prisoners in the same camp, one of whom held American citizenship,” the military wing of Hamas announced in a video released following the attack.
The Americans knew. The Americans helped. Did the CIA or Pentagon help with the targeting? It hardly matters. The Americans provided the bombs, the helicopters, the fighter jets, the bullets and the tank shells. The Americans watched the attack unfold. They watched from Biden’s pier. They watched from drones. They watched as the streets filled with blood, bodies and limbs. Afterward, the Americans praised the rescue operation and said nothing about the dead Palestinian children and women. Nothing about the amputees and the eviscerated. Nothing about the three hostages who were also apparently killed in the Israeli attack, including an American citizen.
The Biden administration’s complicity in the Nuseirat mass slaughter shatters the last pretense of American diplomacy in the Middle East. It’s a sinister calculus that justifies killing and wounding 1000 people to rescue four–four people who could have been released through a ceasefire, a ceasefire the Biden administration claims it wanted to broker.
The massacre at Nuseirat made clear once more that some lives are worth more than others. And to the Israelis and their American allies, at least, Palestinian lives don’t seem to be worth anything at all.
Jeffrey St. Clair is editor of CounterPunch. His most recent book is An Orgy of Thieves: Neoliberalism and Its Discontents (with Alexander Cockburn). He can be reached at: sitka@comcast.net or on Twitter @JeffreyStClair3.
Gee willikers. Maybe Hamas should have honoured the original ceasefire and hostage exchange deal that was agreed to by Israel many months ago, but broken by Hamas.

Any idiot knows that Israel will do whatever it takes to get Israeli hostages back.

And regarding the ceasefire Biden is still pushing to broker, even when Israel is close to fully accepting the terms, Hamas keeps delaying their response, and then keeps moving the goalposts.

I hold Hamas responsible for all the suffering Gazans have endured since Oct. 7, not that many of them are not Hamas supporters and Jew-haters....

Anyways, Yahya Sinwar is saying the more Gazan deaths the better, so he must be a real happy guy! He's got Israel where he wants them lol...
 
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Klatuu

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Gee willikers. Maybe Hamas should have honoured the original ceasefire and hostage exchange deal that was agreed to by Israel many months ago, but broken by Hamas.

Any idiot knows that Israel will do whatever it takes to get Israeli hostages back.

And regarding the ceasefire Biden is still pushing to broker, even when Israel is close to fully accepting the terms, Hamas keeps delaying their response, and then keeps moving the goalposts.

I hold Hamas responsible for all the suffering Gazans have endured since Oct. 7, not that many of them are not Hamas supporters and Jew-haters....

Anyways, Yahya Sinwar is saying the more Gazan deaths the better, so he must be a real happy guy! He's got Israel where he wants them lol...
Racist drivel.
 

xmontrealer

Well-known member
May 23, 2005
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Israel doesn't give 2 hoots about the hostages.

Edit.
History has proven otherwise. Why do you think Israel has been willing to agree to such a disproportionate hostage/prisoner exchange with Hamas?

If most countries involved in hostilities were negotiating hostage exchanges, it would be one for one, period.
 
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The Oracle

Pronouns: Who/Cares
Mar 8, 2004
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On the slopes of Mount Parnassus, Greece
I hold Hamas responsible for all the suffering Gazans have endured since Oct. 7, not that many of them are not Hamas supporters and Jew-haters....
The people of Gaza are all supporters and ambassadors of Hamas therefore they are Hamas.

This is why no Arab country will take them.
 
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